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Is America the endtime Beast country prophesized in Revelation and Daniel?

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3 hours ago, Origen said:

 

There is absolutely no reason to think this has anything military shelling\air power.  You are reading into the text rather than trying to understand it from it own literacy, cultural, historical, and theological context\background.

 

 

(1) Note the term "signs" used twice. The Greek word is σημεῖον.

 

Thus this would not be just some event but "an unusual or even miraculous type of occurrence."  Military shelling\air power would not be an unusual event and certainly not a miraculous event.

 

Now before you commit the fallacy of begging the question stop.  The argument that military shelling\air power would appear to be "fire from heaven" to John simply won't work.   First, you are assuming what you must prove, namely you must show there is good reason to think it refers to military shelling\air power and that is what John saw.  Moreover, you must do so from the text itself.  You cannot.  Something like that is nothing more than pure speculation.  You simply have no way of knowing how John would describe military shelling\air power.  Calling it a guess would be too generous.  Second, you have to ignore the over all context.  There is nothing in the context that suggests a military setting of any kind.  You have simply forced a meaning upon a phrase for which you have no evidence.

 

(2) Revelation replies heavily upon the O.T.  The image of fire coming down from heaven is drawn from Elijah (See 1 Kings 18:38-39 and 2 Kings 1:10-14).  That is the background for this section of the passage.  There is zero need to look for modern military might as the answer.  Note the context.  This second beast (i.e. false prophet Rev. 19:20) exercises a prophet\priest function.  He preforms miraculous events like calling fire down from heaven, causing the idol to speak, and so speaks with the authority of the dragon.  It is a prophet\priest god relationship mean to mirror godly O.T. examples.

(3) Note these signs are meant to "deceive."  So how do these signs deceive?  They are false miracles.  John states: by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived."  Again note a prophet\priest god relationship.  They are to create an image of the beast and to worship it (v. 15).  That is the goal and purpose of the signs not military conquest.

 

Also note the phrase "allowed to work."  The false prophet is allowed to work signs.  The implication is not that he is allowed to work them by the dragon but allowed by God Himself.   If these signs are nothing more than military shelling\air power, that makes no sense.  In that case the false prophet would not really be doing anything unique or something that could considered a great sign.  Military shelling\air power have been used by literally thousands and thousands of times.  However working great signs\miracles like Elijah and Moses, now that is something only God could allow and that fits the context of the prophet\priest god relationship.

 

Nothing in the grammar, context, or background of this passage even suggests modern military shelling\air power.  It is nothing more than an attempt to force a 20th\21st century understanding upon a 1st century text.  It lacks all credibility.

You may possibly be right.  However, I believe there is enough in the book of Daniel and Revelation to identify the little horn and the first beast of Revelation as the RCC and we know how they operate.  I believe we also have enough to possibly state the US is the second beast (this is questionable).  I believe beast powers are symbolic of churches, nations, church/nation states.  I think we can look at what is happening today compared to the text in light of this and state it is possibly US air power raining fire down.  It would fit with the prophecy fairly well, especially if we are real close to the end times which only God knows about that.  The other possibility is it is miracles being performed.  I could see that as well.   

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2 hours ago, Becky said:

Joh_5:39  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 

Are we to search for antichrists?
 

Revelation 1:3, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

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20 hours ago, CDF47 said:

Who do you think the first beast is? 

The first beast is described here: it has seven heads and ten horns.

 

Revelation 13:1-4 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: And the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: And all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: And they worshipped the beast, saying, who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"

 

Will the people of the world be surprised by the revival of the Holy Roman Empire? I think they will. It had received the deadly wound, after Hitler and Mussolini had partnered with the Church at Rome. Hitler and Mussolini had viewed their dominance as a revival of the Holy Roman Empire. History shows us they were the sixth iteration, as represented by the seven heads. The seventh is to occur at the end of this age.  :RpS_thumbsup:

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1 minute ago, CDF47 said:

You may possibly be right.

Thank you.

 

2 minutes ago, CDF47 said:

I think we can look at what is happening today compared to the text in light of this and state it is possibly US air power raining fire down.

Don't read into the text what you think it could be.  What is the evidence from the text it is air power?  Why should anyone think it is air power given the fact in the that Elijah called down fire from heaven?  What reason is there to believe they are not the same thing?

 

5 minutes ago, CDF47 said:

It would fit with the prophecy fairly well, specially if we are real close to the end times which only God knows about that.

Not really given the context.

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28 minutes ago, CDF47 said:

Revelation 1:3, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

Would that not mean the time was at hand when it was written?  The idiom "the time is at hand" suggest nearness, proximity.

 

Now before you suggest this idiom ought to be understood in relationship to God's eternal nature, let me point out that make no sense whatsoever.  There is no reason to think that God could not communicate the difference between something being near and some being far off in time and\or space.

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36 minutes ago, deade said:

The first beast is described here: it has seven heads and ten horns.

 

Revelation 13:1-4 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: And the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: And all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: And they worshipped the beast, saying, who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"

 

Will the people of the world be surprised by the revival of the Holy Roman Empire? I think they will. It had received the deadly wound, after Hitler and Mussolini had partnered with the Church at Rome. Hitler and Mussolini had viewed their dominance as a revival of the Holy Roman Empire. History shows us they were the sixth iteration, as represented by the seven heads. The seventh is to occur at the end of this age.  :RpS_thumbsup:

I also believe that the first beast is the RCC.  I believe the deadly wound occurred as SDA teaches.

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21 minutes ago, Origen said:

Thank you.

 

Don't read into the text what you think it could be.  What is the evidence from the text it is air power?  Why should anyone think it is air power given the fact in the that Elijah called down fire from heaven?  What reason is there to believe they are not the same thing?

 

Not really given the context.

It very well could be.  Elijah calling fire down may be the model for the second beast.

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7 minutes ago, Origen said:

Would that not mean the time was at hand when it was written?  The idiom "the time is at hand" suggest nearness, proximity.

 

Now before you suggest this idiom ought to be understood in relationship to God's eternal nature, let me point out that make no sense whatsoever.  There is no reason to think that God could not communicate the difference between something being near and some being far off in time and\or space.

I believe that the end times began when Jesus ascended into heaven in which the time was at hand from then up until and and into the future.  I believe the last days are something different which includes the great tribulation.

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21 hours ago, CDF47 said:

I believe that the end times began when Jesus ascended into heaven in which the time was at hand from then up until and and into the future.  I believe the last days are something different which includes the great tribulation.

I understand.  Now imagine you are a Christian near the close of the 1st century.  You get this coin:

2130327049_CoinVespasian1.jpg.b20b065085ac5c0c6202f66044a2d332.jpg2112107763_CoinVespasian2.jpg.65e3d09b975b77ffb6a14afbe467b97d.jpg

 

The reverse side depicts Roma (i.e. the Roman goddess and personification of the city of Rome) sitting upon seven hills.  You live in lets say Ephesus one of the seven churches and the place where John the apostle lived out the rest of his life.  It is the region’s most prominent city and a major center for the imperial cult.  Emperor Augustus allowed Ephesus to build two temples in his honor, there was one honoring both Roma and Julius Caesar, and another one honoring Domitian.  Domitian the current emperor, the one according to tradition who exiled John to Patmos, named the city the guardian of the imperial cult.

 

You are reading Revelation.  How would you put 2 plus 2 together?  What would be the context?

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3 minutes ago, Origen said:

I understand.  Now imagine you are a Christian near the close of the 1st century.  You get this coin:

2130327049_CoinVespasian1.jpg.b20b065085ac5c0c6202f66044a2d332.jpg2112107763_CoinVespasian2.jpg.65e3d09b975b77ffb6a14afbe467b97d.jpg

 

This reverse side depicts Roma (i.e. the Roman goddess and personification of the city of Rome) sitting upon seven hills.  You live in lets say Ephesus one of the seven churches and the place where John the apostle lived out the rest of his life.  It is the region’s most prominent city and a major center for the imperial cult.  Emperor Augustus allowed Ephesus to build two temples in his honor there, and Domitian the current emperor, named the city guardian of the imperial cult.

 

You are reading Revelation.  How would you put 2 plus 2 together?  What would be the context?

I often hear from people which demonstrate little historical knowledge, they ignore any of this. If we don't know history everything written back then is going to be pushed into our present time or even the future age.

 

Just once, I'd like someone to acknowledge these events as being past historical accounts and present in the day in which they were written. I'd be more inclined to believe them then if they presented a case where these reoccurring "patterns" unfold throughout time to an inevitable "epicenter" as if there's nothing new under the sun. 

 

Just sharing my thoughts,

God bless,

William

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Doing a word search of King James Bible in eSword the phrase 'the great tribulation' is not found. Doing a word search of ' at hand" can be interesting. Reason i say KJ is that is the one i use. 

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End times of what?
My personal view is the end times of the Jewish temple. Their way of worship.. Which fits into the words of Jesus when He says : 

Mat_24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

A doing away with the blood sacrifice because 
Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 
Heb 10:2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 
Heb 10:3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 
Heb 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 
Heb 10:5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 
Heb 10:6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 
 

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All we have to look at the many, many books, perhaps millions that men have written on end times. Seems a waste to me, compared to studding the Scriptures deeply.

 

How many people go to worldly mental health specialists that often give ungodly advice? So it is with like those who write volumes of books like "LEFT BEHIND". Had people bought a very good Bible with a very good helps in the back, they would have had a Bible that would be a great value to their spiritual growth all the life.

 

I believe there is an interest in end times that.has gone off the edge. If people would be as interested in studding doctrine and theology that would perhaps balance their desire to know the WORD a lot better.

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On 9/12/2018 at 4:08 PM, Origen said:

I understand.  Now imagine you are a Christian near the close of the 1st century.  You get this coin:

2130327049_CoinVespasian1.jpg.b20b065085ac5c0c6202f66044a2d332.jpg2112107763_CoinVespasian2.jpg.65e3d09b975b77ffb6a14afbe467b97d.jpg

 

The reverse side depicts Roma (i.e. the Roman goddess and personification of the city of Rome) sitting upon seven hills.  You live in lets say Ephesus one of the seven churches and the place where John the apostle lived out the rest of his life.  It is the region’s most prominent city and a major center for the imperial cult.  Emperor Augustus allowed Ephesus to build two temples in his honor, there was one honoring both Roma and Julius Caesar, and another one honoring Domitian.  Domitian the current emperor, the one according to tradition who exiled John to Patmos, named the city the guardian of the imperial cult.

 

You are reading Revelation.  How would you put 2 plus 2 together?  What would be the context?

OK, but what about the little horn of Daniel.  It appears as if the little horn of Daniel is the same as the 1st beast of Revelation.

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Just read Matthew Henry's  commentary on Dan 8:9  it was interesting, although my brain is now resting. 

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19 hours ago, CDF47 said:

OK, but what about the little horn of Daniel.  It appears as if the little horn of Daniel is the same as the 1st beast of Revelation.

The first beast of Revelation is the Roman Empire. The little horn is the Catholic Church. When it joins with the beast three of the crowns (countries) will withdraw. That little horn in Daniel is the same as the second beast in Revelation 13.  :classic_cool:

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2 hours ago, deade said:

The first beast of Revelation is the Roman Empire. The little horn is the Catholic Church. When it joins with the beast three of the crowns (countries) will withdraw. That little horn in Daniel is the same as the second beast in Revelation 13.  :classic_cool:

I think they are both RCC.

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Something to add to your reading ☺️ should choose you 

 

 

1. The Throne-Vision (Rev. 4/Ezek. 1)

2. The Book (Rev. 5/Ezek. 2-3)

3. The Four Plagues (Rev. 6:1-8/Ezek. 5)

4. The Slain under the Altar (Rev. 6:9-11/Ezek. 6)

5. The Wrath of God (Rev. 6:12-17/Ezek. 7)

6. The Seal on the Saint’s Foreheads (Rev. 7/Ezek. 9)

7. The Coals from the Altar (Rev. 8/Ezek. 10)

8. No More Delay (Rev. 10:1-7 /Ezek. 12)

9. The Eating of the Book (Rev. 10:8 -11/Ezek. 2)

10. The Measuring of the Temple (Rev. 11:1-2/Ezek. 40-43)

11. Jerusalem and Sodom (Rev. 11:8/Ezek. 16)

12. The Cup of Wrath (Rev. 14/Ezek. 23)

13. The Vine of the Land (Rev. 14:18-20/Ezek. 15)

14. The Great Harlot (Rev. 17-18 /Ezek. 16, 23)

15. The Lament over the City (Rev. 18/Ezek. 27)

16. The Scavengers’ Feast (Rev. 19/Ezek. 39)

17. The First Resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6/Ezek. 37)

18. The Battle with Gog and Magog (Rev. 20:7-9/Ezek. 38-39)

19. The New Jerusalem (Rev. 21/Ezek. 40-48)

20. The River of Life (Rev. 22/Ezek. 47)

 

from Days of Vengeance   Chilton

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On 9/7/2018 at 1:02 PM, Becky said:

Paul never used the term antichrist 

Paul never used the "vile person" or "little horn" labels from the Book of Daniel, neither did our Lord Jesus. But we're to be smart enough to understand that's about the "antichrist" that Apostle John said the brethren had already heard that shall come. The early Church fathers also used the term Antichrist to point to the singular false one that would come.

 

In 1 John 2:18, he said they had heard that antichrist would come, which is about the coming of a singular antichrist figure. Where had they already heard that?

 

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On 9/8/2018 at 12:49 AM, Placable37 said:

1Jn 2:18-22
(18)  Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
(19)  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
(20)  But you have an unction from the Holy One, and you know all things.
(21)  I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
(22)  Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

So the end-times false prophet son of perdition man of sin titled as that Wicked is antichrist, but never in Scripture given the apellation "The Antichrist".
 

Actually, the 1 John 2:18 verse does... declare a singular antichrist. It's in the following phrase...

 

"... and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, ..."

 

Where did they already hear that antichrist shall come?

 

What John revealed to them there that was new information, was that there were "many antichrists" already at work. That facet they apparently had not heard. So the verse actually is about a singular "antichrist", and a then about "many antichrists".

 

One who pays close attention in our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse in Matthew 24 will discover Jesus warning us about both the idea of many coming saying they are Christ, and then a singular false one that comes to work great signs and wonders that would almost deceive even His very elect which others will say is Christ.

 

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On 9/8/2018 at 2:03 AM, CDF47 said:

@Becky I believe the antichrist and antichrists is the office of the pope.

I don't, and I don't see that idea fitting Scripture, even though the Reformers thought so because of the persecutions they were under in their day. If it were true back then in their day, then Jesus' 2nd coming should have happened in their generation and His eternal Kingdom would already de facto be manifested here on earth with all the wicked in the pit.

 

So really the pope as the antichrist idea is actually a centuries old idea that didn't pan out, but is kept alive by those who now may have an agenda against the Catholic Church. (and no, I am not a Catholic, I'm a Protestant Christian)

 

Now could the office of the pope serve the idea of the "many antichrists" idea of 1 John 18? Yes, that I believe, but not the idea of the Antichrist which idea is also there in 1 John 2:18.

 

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1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 
 The Scriptures tell us to seek and search for an antichrist ?

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Just now, Becky said:

1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 
 The Scriptures tell us to seek and search for an antichrist ?

How do you mean your last statement?

 

In 1 John 2:18, both a singular "antichrist" is being mentioned, and the idea of "many antichrists" which is plural. It's simple grammar when followed properly instead of allowing it to lead into a whole sermon about the wicked.

 

John said there that they had heard "antichrist" shall come, so where did they already hear about that? Where is it written in God's Word (and it is written, just not using the antichrist terminology).

 

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On 9/9/2018 at 7:52 PM, deade said:

I beg to differ with you on when Satan was cast out of heaven. The Rev.12 scripture covers a time period of pre-mankind history right up to the time of the end when Satan persecutes the church. The war in heaven happened before the Garden of Eden. Satan was already the adversary by then. The pre-incarnate Christ even described the event:

 

Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."        :RpS_thumbup:

The Revelation 12:7-9 events of Satan and his angels cast to the earth is not about his original casting out.

 

Satan's casting out there is linked to the events for the very end of this world, as it's important to keep reading there in Revelation 12:7 to the end of the chapter.

 

I don't know if it's alright to post the Scripture line upon line, but that's what I do when trying to explain things in God's Word.

 

Rev 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

(That phrase "...neither was their place found any more in heaven" is very important. It means Satan and his angels are booted out of the Heavenly dimension to 'our' earthly dimension here on earth. There's only 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, our earthly one, and the Heavenly one where God's Abode is, and where hell and Paradise is. At Satan's original rebellion he was cast only away from God's Throne to the earth, not able to serve God at His Throne anymore. And he had access still in the Heavenly, even appearing at God's Throne to accuse Job, and still us, until this Rev.12 casting out for the end happens. In this particular Rev.12:7-9 casting out, he will no longer be allowed near God's Throne to accuse us before God.)

 

 

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

 

(These events are hard-linked to this Rev.12 casting out of Satan and his angels to our earthly dimension. When this casting out happens near the very end of this world, then the full power of Christ's Salvation will have fully manifested in the Heavenly, because Satan will no longer be allowed to approach God's Throne to accuse us. This is literally showing us Satan being cast out the Heavenly altogether at the end, because at Satan's original rebellion and casting out, our Lord Jesus had not come yet to die on the cross and offer His Salvation.)

 

 

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

(This is another pointer to this casting out of Satan being for the very end of this world, and not in the time of old when he first rebelled against God. This event of those who overcome him by the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus) means 'after'... Jesus had come and died on the cross and resurrected. That beyond all doubt moves this Rev.12 casting out to the end of this world, and not back at Satan's original rebellion of old.)

 

 

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

 

(All those verses from 12 to 17 are timed together with the previous 7-11 verses of Satan's casting out for the end of this world. That "short time" is not about this whole present world time; it's about the short time of "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus forewarned about the end of this world, which is also written of in Daniel 12:1 about the end.

 

In those final verses, our Lord reminds us about the flood metaphor He gave in the Book of Isaiah, with the enemy coming in 'like' a flood. Our Lord even uses the idea of the flood of Noah's day to show Satan's deception he will do on earth for the end of this world. That will be specifically directed at Christ's Church, because that's who it is that has "the testimony of Jesus Christ.")

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, davy said:

How do you mean your last statement?

Just as the question it is. 

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