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You claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture, and He will be coming into only the air. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." There is no secret rapture there are saints dying all during the tribulation.

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him.

 

1 Thess. 4:17: “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." You see, we meet in the air, then we are ever with the Lord; not ever in the air. Then those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him. Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven.

 

John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

 

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. Matt. 17:9: “And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.”

 

This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to what is literal.  All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven. I remind you this was written after the cross. No, Hebrews 12 doesn't prove anyone in heaven. It is just a reference to Zion.

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit.

 

John said: John 4:24: “God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must  worship Him in spirit and truth.”

 

In 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too. God could be among us and invisible like His angels are. He could make Himself visible and has done so in the past.  

 

Luke 21:25-27: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. The sea and the waves roaring; and then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

 

When Jesus comes back, His countenance will be like the sunrise: glorious!

 

7055.gif

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10 minutes ago, deade said:

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him.

What Scripture says this? 

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1 hour ago, Becky said:

What Scripture says this? 

The last one quoted Luke 21:25-27. Good night all. We will pick this up tomorrow.

 

7068.gif

 

 

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Luke 21:25 - 27 "And there will be signs in the sun in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectations of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken." 

 

where - in these verses is Christ encircling the earth?  

 

this is from the NKJV.  What version are you using?  

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12 hours ago, deade said:

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 
 

I dont see in these verses what you see.

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13 hours ago, deade said:

You claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture

There will be nothing secret about the rapture.  If all the Christians are taken from the earth I am sure everybody will notice.

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1 hour ago, Becky said:

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 
 

I dont see in these verses what you see.

Perhaps the following would be a better example:

 

Matt. 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." 

 

Now this shows a visible return before He gathers the saints from the heavenly realm on earth. He shall sweep over the earth the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1 Thess. 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

It all looks visible to me, this is not a third coming but the next coming.

 

7062.gif

 

 

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And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." 

This says from one end of heaven to the other, says nothing of circling  the earth 

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36 minutes ago, Becky said:

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." 

This says from one end of heaven to the other, says nothing of circling  the earth 

You see that is where wordplay comes into it. The heaven listed is from the Greek word for sky:

Heaven = G3772
οὐρανός
ouranos
oo-ran-os'
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

 

Only by extension is it listed as the abode of God. Just like in Job chapter one where God was meeting with Satan, it was the heavenly realm on earth. Satan has been bound to the earth since before Eden.

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1 hour ago, deade said:

Perhaps the following would be a better example:

 

Matt. 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." 

 

Now this shows a visible return before He gathers the saints from the heavenly realm on earth. He shall sweep over the earth the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1 Thess. 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

It all looks visible to me, this is not a third coming but the next coming.

 

7062.gif

 

 

I think you are missing something.  Look again at Mathew 24:31.  Who gathers the Saints after the Tribulation? The Angels that He sends.

 

Now look at 1  4:2. Who descnds?  Jesus Himself.

 

It's obviously 2 separate events

Edited by Ransol

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4 hours ago, deade said:

Perhaps the following would be a better example:

 

Matt. 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." 

 

Now this shows a visible return before He gathers the saints from the heavenly realm on earth. He shall sweep over the earth the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1 Thess. 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

It all looks visible to me, this is not a third coming but the next coming.

 

7062.gif

 

 

deade -- you sited Luke 21:25 - 27 and said "he would encircle the earth"  the question being asked about is --  your use of the term "encircle" because it is not used in that passage.   What is your definition of "encircle"?  

 

And, yes, it will be visible to everyone and it won't be secret because a noise like a trumpet will be heard. 

 

One of the speculations is that of how many actual Christians are going to be in the world at the time of the gathering up -- what does the Church consist Of?  Born-again believers.  There Are those who label themselves as "Christian" but simply because they go to church regularly or maybe only for Christmas / Easter (Resurrection Day).  Or they attend the same church that their grandparents do / parents go to -- but they'd just as soon be out boating or 'whatever'.  

 

Your comment is "He shall sweep over the earth"  -- where do you find That?  Is that how You are mentally picturing it happening? 

 

The Matthew 24: 29 - 31 passage says that the angels will be sent by Him and "they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other".  Your translation of that is "He shall sweep over the earth"  -- is the wording saying the same thing?  Possibly. 

 

But the question is about the Luke 21 passage.  And the KJV says basically the same thing -- the same wording -- there's no word used that can be looked up in the Greek that says 'encircle'.    

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1 hour ago, Sue D. said:

 

But the question is about the Luke 21 passage.  And the KJV says basically the same thing -- the same wording -- there's no word used that can be looked up in the Greek that says 'encircle'.    

This basically says as the Sun comes up in the East and set in the West isn't happening in one place, thus He will have to encircle for everyone to experience this.

 

Matt. 24:27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

 

The parallel verse:

Luk 17:24  "For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day."

 

This is what it will look like:

Matt. 24:30  "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

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26 minutes ago, deade said:

This basically says as the Sun comes up in the East and set in the West isn't happening in one place, thus He will have to encircle for everyone to experience this.

 

Matt. 24:27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

 

The parallel verse:

Luk 17:24  "For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day."

 

This is what it will look like:

Matt. 24:30  "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

They say no such thing basically or any other way.  None of them even mention the Sun.

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Fitting Scripture to  our theologies , our eschatologies any of our logies  we find our selves adding to Scripture . We should be fitting our 'loigies' to the Scripture .

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9 minutes ago, Becky said:

Fitting Scripture to  our theologies , our eschatologies any of our logies  we find our selves adding to Scripture . We should be fitting our 'loigies' to the Scripture .

So true.  It is one of the worst thing anyone could do to the text.

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1 hour ago, Origen said:

They say no such thing basically or any other way.  None of them even mention the Sun.

If this is not the Sun, does lightning always come from the east and shines into the west?

 

lightning = G796
ἀστραπή
astrapē
as-trap-ay'
From G797; lightning; by analogy glare: - lightning, bright shining.

 

Look like sunlight to me. 

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Just now, deade said:

If this is not the Sun, does lightning always come from the east and shines into the west?

 

lightning = G796
ἀστραπή
astrapē
as-trap-ay'
From G797; lightning; by analogy glare: - lightning, bright shining.

 

Look like sunlight to me. 

So you are right and the Scriptures are wrong? You are a Christian you dont really believe the Scripture to be wrong.  

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1 hour ago, deade said:

If this is not the Sun, does lightning always come from the east and shines into the west?

No!

 

1 hour ago, deade said:

lightning = G796
ἀστραπή
astrapē
as-trap-ay'
From G797; lightning; by analogy glare: - lightning, bright shining.

 

Look like sunlight to me. 

You need more light because you cannot see.  Even your source Strong does not make that claim.  You need learn what Strongs is and how to use it.  It is index of occurrences which are glosses from the KJV.  It is not a scholarly lexicon and it is dated to say the least.

 

Let me ask you a question.  If Matthew or any other N.T. author wanted to refer to "lightning" such as in a lightning and thunder storm what Greek word would they use?

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9 minutes ago, deade said:

If this is not the Sun, does lightning always come from the east and shines into the west?

 

lightning = G796
ἀστραπή
astrapē
as-trap-ay'
From G797; lightning; by analogy glare: - lightning, bright shining.

 

Look like sunlight to me. 

A flash of lightening illuminates the entire sky visibly instantly from one end to the other. The advent of Christ comes like lightening.

 

Then how do we reconcile lightening only coming from the East to the West? Possibly, Christ is talking about His first appearance in the East and spreading to the West (Gentiles).

 

God bless,

William

 

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50 minutes ago, William said:

A flash of lightening illuminates the entire sky visibly instantly from one end to the other. The advent of Christ comes like lightening.

 

Then how do we reconcile lightening only coming from the East to the West? Possibly, Christ is talking about His first appearance in the East and His light spreading to the West (Gentiles).

 

God bless,

William

 

Luke really clears the whole matter up.  First, he makes it clear these are "lightning flashes."  It has nothing to do with the Sun.  If Matthew and Luke wanted us to think it was the Sun then there is no reason they could not have used the Greek word for Sun.  Second, Luke drops the "from East to West" and says "the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other."

 

"For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day." (Luke 17:24)

 

Both Matthew's and Luke's point is when the Son of Man comes it will obvious like lightning.  In other words, you can't miss then it happens.

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13 minutes ago, Origen said:

Luke really clears the whole matter up.  First, he makes it clear these are "lightning flashes."  It has nothing to do with the Sun.  If Matthew and Luke wanted us to think it was the Sun then they there is no reason they could not have used would the Greek word for Sun.  Second, Luke drops the "from East to West" and says "lights up the sky from one side to the other."

 

"For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day." (Luke 17:24)

The visual imagery of a lightening flash from out of darkness should not only startle everyone but thunderously shake the unbelieving world. For believers this is a moment of Joy.

  • Psalm 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

There should be terror in the wrath of the Son. Which imagery should conjure up a suddenness in Judgment as Christ smites the foe.

 

 

God bless,

William

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Whether it is lightning or glaring sunshine, we agree it will be visible and terrifying.

 

Rev. 6:14-17 "The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”" 

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On 6/7/2018 at 8:32 PM, deade said:

You claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture, and He will be coming into only the air. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." There is no secret rapture there are saints dying all during the tribulation.

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him.

 

1 Thess. 4:17“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." You see, we meet in the air, then we are ever with the Lord; not ever in the air. Then those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him. Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven.

 

John 3:13“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

 

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. Matt. 17:9“And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.”

 

This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to what is literal.  All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven. I remind you this was written after the cross. No, Hebrews 12 doesn't prove anyone in heaven. It is just a reference to Zion.

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit.

 

John said: John 4:24: “God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must  worship Him in spirit and truth.”

 

In 1 John 3:2"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too. God could be among us and invisible like His angels are. He could make Himself visible and has done so in the past.  

 

Luke 21:25-27“And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. The sea and the waves roaring; and then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

 

When Jesus comes back, His countenance will be like the sunrise: glorious!

 

7055.gif

John 4:24 So, you gonna wait till you are a spirit until you worship Him?

 

Jesus said He is not a ghost,  a ghost does not have flesh and blood, and a ghost does not eat or drink.

 

It's not our spirit that is GOING TO BE made incorruptible,  we are ALREADY made incorruptible in our spirit.  We are to renew our mind here and now.  The only thing left is our physical bodies.  

 

Those in heaven with Christ now, are they in their old spirit, old bodies?  No, new spirit, and at the Pre-Trib rapture,  they will get their incorruptible physical bodies, just like Jesus has.

 

And, the Pre-Trib rapture is no secret, you just have to pay close attention to what the word actually says.  

 

Notice in Thessalonians Paul says "Jesus, Himself will descend and we will gather us" but in Mathew 24, Jesus said He will send His Angels to gather the elect.  

 

Obviously these are not the same event.  

 

 

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6 hours ago, deade said:

Whether it is lightning or glaring sunshine, we agree it will be visible and terrifying.

Sure, that was never in question, but that was not the point of THIS discussion.  This discussion has to do with what the says actually states and what it does not.

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6 hours ago, Origen said:

Sure, that was never in question, but that was not the point of THIS discussion.  This discussion has to do with what the says actually states and what it does not.

It seems the question was when will the saints be gathered, will it be this visible and terrifying day or will it be an earlier date. As Ransol says above, he believes in a pre-trib rapture, number two, secret or no. I say post trib-rapture, as per one on the following chart:

 

image.thumb.png.312466e66a561a4df446aa58a98f4463.png

 

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           1. Frederick Danker: Just as Israel was to understand her role as one of obedience to the God who saved her, so the Christian is to see the moral and ethical implications of this recognition of Christ's claim to ownership expressed so often in such a phrase as "Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus." Out of such conviction the iron of steadfast confession was smelted. As the stones came flying at Stephen, he prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59) (Creeds in the Bible, page 45, c. 1966).
           2. David Peterson: But he pointedly 'calls upon' the Lord Jesus in prayer instead of the Father, trusting him for salvation through death and beyond. Thus, he articulates his belief in the divinity of Christ. Then 'he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." Jesus prayed to the Father that those crucified him might be forgiven (Lk. 23:34), and Stephen prays for the forgiveness of those stoning him, once again addressing Jesus as Lord (The Acts of the Apostles, Pillar New Testament Commentary, page 269).
           3. William Mounce: Jesus is the addressee when epikaleō is used in the sense of praying (Acts 7:59) (Mounce's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Call, page 93).
           4. J. Jeremias: Stephen prays: kurie Iesou dezai to pneuma mou (Ac.7:59) (TDNT 5:771, paradeisos).
           5. W. E. Vine: Prayer is properly addressed to God the Father, Matt. 6:6; John 16:23; Eph. 1:17; 3:14, and the Son, Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 12:8 (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Prayer, page 872).
           6. Marvin Vincent: An unquestionable prayer to Christ.
      http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincentact7.htm There are several important points concerning Stephen's prayer to the Lord Jesus in Acts 7:59-60:
           1. The worship of the Father and the worship of the Lord Jesus is demonstrated by Luke in Christ's prayer to the Father (Luke 23:34, 46) and in Stephen's prayer to Christ (Acts 7:59-60). Some try to evade the fact that the Lord Jesus is being prayed to by pointing out that Stephen was experiencing a vision of the Lord Jesus so it really doesn't constitute a prayer. However, the vision took place in the city while the prayer took place after he was "cast out of the city" (Acts 7:58). Others have claimed that since Paul appealed (epikaloumai) to Caesar (Acts 25:11) it doesn't mean that when Stephen called (epikaloumenon) to the Lord Jesus prayer is involved. To this it is answered that in Acts 7:59 the Lord Jesus heard what Stephen said at that very moment. The same can not be said concerning Caesar's ability to hear what Paul spoke at that precise moment. One must consider how the Greek word is used in context. Indeed, concerning the Greek word deomai (Strong's #1189) we see that in Luke 9:40 a man "begged" (deomai) Christ's disciples. This doesn't mean he prayed to them even though deomai is used in Luke 10:2 concerning praying (deomai) to the Lord of the harvest. Notice as well that Paul's verbal appeal to Caesar pales in significance to what Stephen expressed. Stephen called out to the Lord Jesus to receive his spirit. This carries with it the idea that the Lord Jesus is God the Creator (see Ecclesiastes 12:7 below). In addition to this is the fact that the Lord Jesus, being the Heart-knower of all, fully knew what Stephen was going to say even before he spoke. This is a powerful proof of His Deity. Stephen prayed to the Lord Jesus, but Paul did not pray to Caesar. Still others maintain that Stephen prayed to the Lord Jesus in Acts 7:59 but that he prayed to the Father in Acts 7:60. This assertion is really absurd. While the rocks mercilessly pummeled Stephen there is no need for him to say the "Lord Jesus" when he already clearly did so in Acts 7:59.   Acts 9:14
      And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name. (ESV)     
           1. Allen P. Ross: In the NT the word is used is many of the same ways as in the OT, but most notable is the way that the name of Jesus is substituted for the name of God. Now one can call on (i.e., worship) the name of Jesus (Acts 9:14) (NIDOTTE 4:151, name - shem).     
           2. Barclay Newman and Eugene Nida: The phrase call on your name is equivalent to "worship you" (A Translator's Handbook on The Acts of the Apostles, Acts 9:14, page 191).[*1]           3. Daniel Whedon: A clear declaration that the very peculiarity of the Christian was praying to Jesus.
      http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/whe/acts-9.html#1      4. J. C. O'Neill: To call on the name of the Lord Jesus was to worship the God of Israel (The Use of KYRIOS in the Book of Acts, Scottish Journal of Theology, Volume 8, Issue 2, c. June, 1955, page 172).   [*1] Calling upon the name of the Lord (Acts 9:14) also means to believe in the Lord (Acts 22:19).  Acts 9:14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name. (ESV)      Acts 22:19 And I said, Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. (ESV)  If anyone claims to believe in Jesus but refuses to worship Jesus then they do not believe in the biblical Jesus (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:4). Indeed, just as believing in God with all of one's household implies the worship of God (Acts 16:34), so too does believing in the Lord Jesus with all of one's household imply the worship of the Lord Jesus (Acts 18:8).
      Acts 9:21
      All those hearing him continued to be amazed, and were saying, "Is this not he who in Jerusalem destroyed those who called on this name, and who had come here for the purpose of bringing them bound before the chief priests?" (NASB - the underlined is mine) Galatians 1:23 but only, they kept hearing, "He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith which he once tried to destroy." (NASB - the underlined is mine) Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. (NASB - the underlined is mine)      1. Praying to the Lord Jesus as YHWH (Acts 9:21)[*1] is equated with "the faith" (Galatians 1:23)[*2] that Christians must "contend earnestly for" (Jude 1:3). Those who refuse to pray to the Lord Jesus as YHWH do not belong to the Christian faith for their faith/gospel is accursed (Galatians 1:8-9).[*3]      [*1] Those who have been sanctified by faith in Christ Jesus are the same ones who have called upon His name as YHWH in prayer. Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me. (NASB - the underlined is mine) 1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours. (NASB - the underlined is mine)   [*2] The same Greek word (portheo) is employed for "destroyed" in Acts 9:21 and "destroy" in Galatians 1:23.   [*3] Concerning "the faith" in Galatians 1:23 the BDAG (3rd Edition) reads: If the principal component of Christianity is faith, then p. can be understood as the Gospel in terms of the commitment it evokes (pistis, page 820).   Acts 22:16-21 (The Lord of the temple) (16) Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’
      (17) “It happened when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I fell into a trance,
      (18) and I saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me.’
      (19) And I said, ‘Lord, they themselves understand that in one synagogue after another I used to imprison and beat those who believed in You.
      (20) And when the blood of Your witness Stephen was being shed, I also was standing by approving, and watching out for the coats of those who were slaying him.’
      (21) And He said to me, ‘Go! For I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’” (NASB) Although occurring at different times both of Paul's prayers to the Lord Jesus are brought together by Luke in Acts 22:16-17. Paul calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus in prayer (Acts 22:16) and immediately afterwards he is praying in the temple (Acts 22:17).[*1] That the Lord Jesus responds (Acts 22:18) implies Paul was praying to Him on both occasions (Acts 22:16-17).   [*1] David Peterson: Moreover, Paul's vision implies that the risen Jesus is Lord of the temple, who reveals his will and commissions his servant in that context for his mission to the nations. The parallel with Isaiah's call in Isaiah 6 becomes all the more stunning when it is realised that the risen Lord Jesus takes the roll of 'the Lord God Almighty' in directing Paul and warning him about the opposition he will receive (cf. the recollection of Is. 6:9-10 in Acts 28:24-28) (The Acts of the Apostles, Pillar New Testament Commentary, page 604-605).  There are further similarities when we compare the missions given by the Lord to both Isaiah and to Paul while he was in the temple (the underlined below is mine). Isaiah 42:6-7 (6) I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness,
      I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You,
      And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people,
      As a light to the nations, (7) To open blind eyes,
      To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
      And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. (NASB) Acts 26:17-18 (17) rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
      (18) to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me. (NASB)  Notice as well that the Lord will watch over Isaiah (Isaiah 42:6) and in like manner rescue Paul (Acts 26:17). The nations (Isaiah 42:6) to whom the light will be sent refers to the Gentiles (Acts 26:17). Before their conversion they were prisoners in the dungeon (Isaiah 42:7) which means they were under the dominion of Satan (Acts 26:18). That God called Isaiah to bring them out (Isaiah 42:7) parallels the message Paul would preach of being forgiven/set free from one's sins by faith in Christ (Acts 26:18).  

      in God (Trinitarian doctrines)

    • The true worship of Jesus by the Jehovah's Witnesses (2 Timothy 4:16-18)

      2 Timothy 4:16-18 (16) At my first defense no one supported me, but all deserted me; may it not be counted against them. (17) But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that through me the proclamation might be fully accomplished, and that all the Gentiles might hear; and I was rescued out of the lion’s mouth. (18) The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (NASB)   In their book Stay Close to Jehovah's Organization the Jehovah's Witnesses assert the following (the bold face is mine):  Even if you do find yourself isolated from all your Christian brothers, keep in mind that you are not isolated from Jehovah and his Son, Jesus Christ. Your hope can remain firm. Jehovah can still hear your prayers, and he can strengthen you with his spirit. Look to him for guidance. Remember that you are a servant of Jehovah and a disciple of Jesus Christ. Therefore, make good use of opportunities to witness. Jehovah will bless your efforts, and others may soon join you in true worship.—Acts 4:13-31; 5:27-42; Phil. 1:27-30; 4:6, 7; 2 Tim. 4:16-18. (Organized to Do Jehovah's Will, see the 5th to the last paragraph). https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014947    As with all the other passages cited 2 Timothy 4:16-18 is also used in reference to true worship.   Notice though that the Jehovah's Witnesses affirm that the "Lord" in both 2 Timothy 4:17 and 2 Timothy 4:18 refers to the Lord Jesus.      a. Our Kingdom Ministry—2014: Even in his heavenly position, Jesus shows personal interest. (2 Tim. 4:17) (Improving Our Skills in the Ministry—Showing Personal Interest) https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/202014401      b. The Watchtower: The individuals hearing Jesus could, if they faithfully served God, have the expectation of reigning with Christ in heaven. (2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 20:4, 6) (Questions From Readers, March 1, 1967). https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1967167    Thus the Jehovah's Witnesses (inadvertently?) affirm that true worship is properly rendered unto the Lord Jesus.  

      in Arianism

    • Why Did Jesus Sleep During the Storm?

      The story of the sea storm in the Gospel of Mark picks up right after Jesus has given a series of sermons. He’s preached to a crowd so large that he had to speak from a boat pushed a short distance into the water. Mark 4:35–41 tells the story of Jesus calming the storm—but, curiously, we find the Lord asleep as the chaos breaks out around him: And a great windstorm arose, and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion. And they woke him and said to him, “Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?” And he awoke and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. (Mark 4:37–39) Why was Jesus asleep in the boat? There are a few possible explanations. Mark, as well as most of the other biblical authors, is spare with his details—including only those elements necessary to the author’s agenda—so we could assume it’s a salient element to the story. There are three possibilities. 1. A Link to Jonah Perhaps Mark tells us Jesus is sleeping in order to link the account to Jonah. The story of Jonah shares similar elements and language (in its Greek translation) to the one in Mark 4, which suggests Mark is evoking the story. One is the idea of the main character sleeping in the bottom of the boat during the storm, though the language used to describe Jonah is more vivid and possibly pejorative. 2. A Clue about Jesus’s Humanity Jesus is fully human: He works hard, does much public speaking, and deals with many different people, all of whom want something from him. Given the strains ordinary ministers experience in their daily work, the fully human Jesus must have suffered from exhaustion during his earthly ministry. 3. A Clue about Jesus’s Divinity Though Jesus is a human, he also has full confidence in his divine identity. As only the second person of the Trinity can, Jesus sleeps like a baby amid the chaos, secure in the realization that he is one with the Creator, and his time has not come. His sleep signals divine insight: Jesus knows he’s not going to die tonight. Of course, all three of these explanations are possible at the same time, because human language in the hands of a skilled author can convey multiple complex ideas at once. Why These Three Options? Surely, the sleeping Jesus is supposed to make you think about Jonah’s story (the first option), where a suspicious storm develops and is quieted by God and all the witnesses are left terrified. Remember when the sailors cast lots, asking, “Who has brought this storm on us?” The lot falls on Jonah. They begrudgingly throw the prophet overboard, and the storm immediately dissipates. The emphasis is on who calms the storm. The Lord, Creator of heaven and earth, stills it, and the sailors know they have just witnessed God’s hand and his complete authority over the forces of creation. In Jonah 1:16, “the men feared the LORD exceedingly.” The Greek translation of this passage emphasizes the great fear the sailors experience when they see God’s power on display. It’s even greater than their fear of the storm (1:5). It’s fear-inducing to know that the cosmic God who calms the storm also cares about the rebellion of a single man. In Mark, Jesus also sleeps. The disciples wake him for fear of their lives (as in Jonah, the sleeper is roused with a rhetorical question), and the wind and waves are calmed. Mark seems to be drawing our attention to the agent who calms the storm. In Jonah, the agent is the Lord, but in Mark 4 it is Jesus. Jesus is to the storm in Mark 4 what God is to the wind and waves in Jonah 1. And as if to drive the point home, the disciples who bear witness to all of this are described in virtually the same phraseology used in the Greek translation of Jonah. They are “exceedingly afraid” (Mark 4:41).  The storm was terrifying, but this prophet in the boat with the power to speak truth to the weather presents an entirely new source of fear. The authority of God inspires such fear in those who see it firsthand. But the second option works as well. Jesus’s sleep in the boat is a reminder of his humanity. It’s a fascinating idea that there were regular moments when the God-man, the Lord of the universe, may have laid down and pondered some random thoughts before sleep overtook him. As a human, he could grow tired, even to a point of exhaustion. So he gets in the boat and lies back like a business traveler on a red-eye flight, trying to fit in sleep wherever he can. Mark’s audience could readily identify with Jesus’s humanity. The third option is also compelling. Just the fact that Jesus sleeps is a clue to his divinity. How? Jesus didn’t fear the wind and waves or anything they could do to him. The Creator need not be restless in the face of a dangerous creation. When Jonah secretly sleeps below the decks, he does so in a spirit of fatalism and dread. When Jesus sleeps in the hull of the boat, he does so in confidence. He doesn’t lose sleep on account of weather patterns. Jesus is more than a teacher; he’s a miracle-worker. Once the reader absorbs that point, Mark ups the ante. Jesus is more than a teacher and more than a miracle-worker. He has the authority of the Creator himself. View the full article

      in Christian Current Events

    • When did Jesus begin his ministry?

      Jesus was born during the reign of Caesar Augustus, and maybe two or three years before the death of Herod.  This puts his birth year in 7 BC or 6 BC.  He began his ministry when he was about thirty (Luke 3: 23), which would be about the year 23 AD or 24 AD.   But the ministry of Jesus was preceded by that of John, which began in the fifteenth year or the reign of Tiberius (Luke 3: 1&2) – either 28 AD or 29 AD.   So I am wondering: In which year did Jesus begin his ministry?  Also, in which year was he crucified?

      in New Testament

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