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Innerfire89

Contemplative prayer.

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In another thread I noticed contemplative prayer was brought up, and I thought it might be a good idea to to start a thread on it.

So, what is contimplative prayer? Well it's not quite what it sounds like. Of course we should contemplate what we're praying. But that not what it is.

Contemplative prayer is repeating a phrase and emptying the mind to hear God's voice for guidance.

​​​​​​​That sounds good, but it's quite dangerous and has no scriptural basis. This prayer/meditation practice didn't originate with Christianity at all, but in eastern spiritisim and the new age movement. It's purpose is to connect you with to deities and spirits, better know as demons.

​​​​​​​Every example of prayer in Scripture shows approaching God in comprehensible communication, not a mystical experience.

Now I'll let God's word shine light on the subject, and you can decide how you should pray.

Matthew 6:7-13 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall heard for their much speaking. Be not ye like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

 

 

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Stay strong in Christ and be blessed.

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Some of toda'ys music does the same thing this is memorizing and actually can bring a trance like effect on people. This is often used in Word of Faith churches. In listening to some Christian radio stations just listen carefully to the words, and you will find somethings are totally unbiblically, and even Satanic.

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I'm surprised you guys don't know about contemplative prayer? Are there no contemplatives in Protestant tradition?

For us at least it is better termed as worshipping in spirit and truth.

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Some of toda'ys music does the same thing this is memorizing and actually can bring a trance like effect on people. This is often used in Word of Faith churches. In listening to some Christian radio stations just listen carefully to the words, and you will find somethings are totally unbiblically, and even Satanic.

I'm not sure what it's called, but people use that music for meditation too. They start by putting on the music and then repeat a prayer to slip into a trance to feel what they call The Holy Spirit.

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I'm surprised you guys don't know about contemplative prayer? Are there no contemplatives in Protestant tradition?

For us at least it is better termed as worshipping in spirit and truth.

Contemplative in the sense of being mindful yes, but not opening the mind though meditation. But yes, there are Protestants who practice contemplative prayer, in certain charismatics circles. One example is Belthel Church, they practice contemplative prayer along with other meditations like Sozo prayer, where a mediator guides someone into a meditative prayer to shut doors to sin in their mind.

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Do Protestants meditate on the passion and the events of Jesus life and keep watch in those events?

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Do Protestants meditate on the passion and the events of Jesus life and keep watch in those events?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "keep watch in those events. But we meditate on all Scripture says. Meditation meaning to focus and think on.

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I'm surprised you guys don't know about contemplative prayer? Are there no contemplatives in Protestant tradition?

For us at least it is better termed as worshipping in spirit and truth.

 

If one is worshiping 'in truth' then by definition it cannot involve the emptying of ones mind, for that is to ignore and reject 'truth'

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If one is worshiping 'in truth' then by definition it cannot involve the emptying of ones mind, for that is to ignore and reject 'truth'

 

Eastern meditation involves emptying the mind and purging desires, where as Christian contemplation involves filling up on Christ and having great desires, burning desires.

 

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind"

 

For Catholics this is done by grace in contemplation, we can't achieve this just by our mortal efforts. We can dispose ourselves by Meditation each day on Christ's life, as in the Rosary or the stations of the Cross.

 

In contemplation of Christ, hours can seem like minutes, and minutes can seem like days. Depending on how grace acts on you, it can be the most refreshing time and the most intense time with God.

Contemplation fixes our heart, mind and soul on Jesus, it builds a great longing and desire to be with God and to that state of Adoration that is a foretaste of the permanent Adoration in Heaven.

 

Without contemplation we can't "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind"

 

 

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When we fix the eyes of our soul on Jesus and look on Him in His terrible passion each day, how can we sin? When our desire is for Christ, what space is there to desire anything else?

The more we contemplate Jesus the more we desire Him, the more we love Him.

 

Whether I'm brush cutting grass or in a loud generator room I have been taken by grace to Jesus in the passion, it can happen anywhere spontaneously outside your normal prayer time, eventually.

There is no more beneficial practice to a soul than contemplation of Jesus passion I'm convinced, to be with Jesus through His sufferings we start to understand His intense burning desire and love for us. Exposure to that desire and love sets us on fire with love for Him.

 

All other inordinate desires are idolatry, we are made to love and desire God above all. I encourage my Protestant brothers and sisters to pray the stations of the Cross everyday, great graces can be gained from it.

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For Catholics this is done by grace in contemplation, we can't achieve this just by our mortal efforts. We can dispose ourselves by Meditation each day on Christ's life, as in the Rosary or the stations of the Cross.

 

 

And yet Jesus decries the practice of repetition as a means of reaching God (Mat 6:7) he calls it a heathen practice.

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And yet Jesus decries the practice of repetition as a means of reaching God (Mat 6:7) he calls it a heathen practice.

 

Jesus prayed repetitiously.

 

"And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words." Matt 26:44

 

Jesus teaches we must ask, knock and seek constantly. Like the woman seeking justice from the judge. She re-petitioned the judge until she got justice.

 

Repetition is not the issue. Pagans did two things that were considered Battalog ( in the Greek ) or babble. One was chanting gibberish in the hopes that something in the gibberish was pleasing to their gods, a bit like verbal entrail reading.

The other was the roman pagan idea of prayer to the gods, prayer to them was a long legal contract with huge details to make sure the gods understood everything being asked, because they did not believe their gods could see everything needed. Huge long winded details down to their pet dogs good teeth and shiny coat was read out by pagan priests, and even detailed curses they wanted on others, you can read surviving examples written in lead sheets to this day. We would call it legal babble today, but the Father knows what we need before we ask, no need to read out a long winded legal contract.

 

The Lord's Prayer infers daily repetition " Give us this day our daily bread ", the fact that you said it yesterday does not preclude you from repeating it today or many times a day.

 

Repetition is an important part of Christian prayer life.

 

 

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@Matto

As it's been pointed out in the Lord's teaching on how to pray, that he commands us not to use repition in prayer as the heathen or pagans do. Im not trying to be rude, but you haven't addressed any of the points I made in the OP.

If we can do something to bring grace it's no longer grace but reward for a work.

 

​​​​​​​I'm noticing something in the practices of contemplative prayer and other practices like it among charismatics, that the persons starts to lose control and just randomly falls into that special state of mind, but Scripture tells us self control is a fruit of The Spirit. We're are supposed to test every spirit, the spirit that I keep hearing of isn't passing the test.

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Jesus prayed repetitiously.

 

"And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words." Matt 26:44

 

Jesus teaches we must ask, knock and seek constantly. Like the woman seeking justice from the judge. She re-petitioned the judge until she got justice.

 

Repetition is not the issue. Pagans did two things that were considered Battalog ( in the Greek ) or babble. One was chanting gibberish in the hopes that something in the gibberish was pleasing to their gods, a bit like verbal entrail reading.

The other was the roman pagan idea of prayer to the gods, prayer to them was a long legal contract with huge details to make sure the gods understood everything being asked, because they did not believe their gods could see everything needed. Huge long winded details down to their pet dogs good teeth and shiny coat was read out by pagan priests, and even detailed curses they wanted on others, you can read surviving examples written in lead sheets to this day. We would call it legal babble today, but the Father knows what we need before we ask, no need to read out a long winded legal contract.

 

The Lord's Prayer infers daily repetition " Give us this day our daily bread ", the fact that you said it yesterday does not preclude you from repeating it today or many times a day.

 

Repetition is an important part of Christian prayer life.

 

 

I don't think saying the same prayer more than once really counts as repetition, but say the same words or phrase over and over in one prayer is obviously repetitive.

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I don't think saying the same prayer more than once really counts as repetition, but say the same words or phrase over and over in one prayer is obviously repetitive.

 

Vain repetitions is an erroneous translation, Battalog has nothing that means "repetition " in it.

 

"I don't think saying the same prayer more than once really counts as repetition"

 

I'm afraid it does by definition.

 

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"If we can do something to bring grace it's no longer grace but reward for a work."

 

God rewards people because He is good, not because we deserve it.

 

I remember a little kid helping his dad by shovelling sand with his toy shovel, his work achieved nothing, but his disposition trying please dad was beyond reproach, it was beautiful. The little kid was thinking of his dad, and was rewarded. God looks at the heart likewise when we think of Him in Meditation, our disposition of wanting to love Him is important. Being people of goodwill.

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"If we can do something to bring grace it's no longer grace but reward for a work."

God rewards people because He is good, not because we deserve it.

I remember a little kid helping his dad by shovelling sand with his toy shovel, his work achieved nothing, but his disposition trying please dad was beyond reproach, it was beautiful. The little kid was thinking of his dad, and was rewarded. God looks at the heart likewise when we think of Him in Meditation, our disposition of wanting to love Him is important. Being people of goodwill.

 

But it's still a reward, not grace. What you're describing is favour. To say that the disposition of the child causes the father to grant him grace is saying that the child earned grace by his disposition. Yet we are saved by grace while our disposition is to do what is contrary to God.

 

​​​​​​I don't see anywhere in Scripture where grace increases by doing anything.

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​​​​​​I don't see anywhere in Scripture where grace increases by doing anything.

 

When you pray grace increases, that is what prayer is for. " Ask and it shall be given ".

 

"Yet we are saved by grace while our disposition is to do what is contrary to God "

 

Because others have asked for the Grace in prayer.

 

 

 

 

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When you pray grace increases, that is what prayer is for. " Ask and it shall be given ".

"Yet we are saved by grace while our disposition is to do what is contrary to God "

Because others have asked for the Grace in prayer.

 

Romans 11:5-6 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

There is no need to add grace by works, Christ did all that was needed to be done on the cross.

 

The Bible doesn't support that either, that would make salvation dendend on the prayers of other people. But Scripture does tell us we're elected for salvation before we're even born. I don't understand that concept, do people need to ask God to be graceful?

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"There is no need to add grace by works,"

 

So prayer is pointless?

 

 

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"There is no need to add grace by works,"

 

So prayer is pointless?

 

Prayer is the way we communicate with God through Jesus Christ -- so you're saying that it's okay to pray and ask For grace? in order To be saved?

 

Ephesians 2: 8 - 9 "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that, not of itself - it is a gift from God. Not of works lest any man should boast"

 

It's the Holy Spirit who brings conviction to a person.

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"Prayer is the way we communicate with God through Jesus Christ -- so you're saying that it's okay to pray and ask For grace? in order To be saved?"

 

So your saying that it's wrong to pray for grace for someone's salvation? And pointless even?

 

"Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved." Rom10:1

Edited by Matto

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"Prayer is the way we communicate with God through Jesus Christ -- so you're saying that it's okay to pray and ask For grace? in order To be saved?"

 

So your saying that it's wrong to pray for grace for someone's salvation? And pointless even?

 

"Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved." Rom10:1

I don't understand your reasoning for 'praying (asking) for grace'.

 

We Can pray that someone would accept Christ as their personal Savior -- yes -- just have never heard it expressed the way you are.

 

Romans 10:1 "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved."

 

You've commented that others have asked for grace in prayers.

 

Your bio info says you're from a RCC background. Part of that belief system is praying for the dead. So you're extending That to praying for grace to be given to people who are alive.

 

As 'Innerfire 89 has commented -- everything needed for a person's salvation has already been done on the cross by Jesus Christ.

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"There is no need to add grace by works,"

 

So prayer is pointless?

 

 

No, but praying for the grace that we already saved by is pointless

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"Prayer is the way we communicate with God through Jesus Christ -- so you're saying that it's okay to pray and ask For grace? in order To be saved?"

 

So your saying that it's wrong to pray for grace for someone's salvation? And pointless even?

 

"Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved." Rom10:1

 

Is everyone we pray for saved? It's by God's will that we are saved by his grace, his grace doesn't depend on us.

 

Look at the model of prayer Christ gave us, "Thy will be done" to pray that someone would be saved is to hope that it's in God's will.

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