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nolidad

Who accompanies Jesus at His Second coming!

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I was asked to start an new thread discussing who attends Jesus at His Second coming! I believe the Scriptures are clear that both angels and teh church follow Jesus when He returns to Petra, battles the ANtichrist back to Jerusalem and defeats him there, and then splits the Mount of Olives in 2 and then begins the judgment of gentile nations prior to establishing the millennial kingdom!

 

So let us look a t the main passage.

 

 

Rev. 19:

 

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

 

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

 

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

 

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

Now some may ask- are notr angels clothed in linens fine and white and clean? Well maybe yes- maybe no I do not think the bible actually tells us the wardrobe of angels ( if they do I do not know) But even if they do- we must remember that context is critical.

 

and in Rev. 19 the context is the church- the bride of Christ! Let us look a the beginning of the chapter:

 

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

 

 

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And then there is Rev. 20: 4 and 6 "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their forehead or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for 1,000 yrs..

 

My understanding is that believers will be coming back with Jesus when He stands on Mt. Olives -- 'we ' will reign with Him during those 1,000 ys. Those who have part in the 1st resurrection. Apparently some believers will and some won't.

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Hi Nolidad and Sue D,

 

If is says His saints are coming back with Him, then who is this: 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17:"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." What is it that has to rise, if we are already with Him?

 

Yours,

Deade

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Hi Nolidad and Sue D,

 

If is says His saints are coming back with Him, then who is this: 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17:"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." What is it that has to rise, if we are already with Him?

 

Yours,

Deade

 

That is the rapture and not the second coming. 2 separate and different events. The Thess. passage- Jesus does not return to earth but only descends into the atmosphere. In Rev. Jesus comes back with the armies of heaven to war with the antichrist.

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That is the rapture and not the second coming. 2 separate and different events. The Thess. passage- Jesus does not return to earth but only descends into the atmosphere. In Rev. Jesus comes back with the armies of heaven to war with the antichrist.

 

Hi nolidad,

 

I see we are still disagreeing. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him. Those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him. Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven. John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

 

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to the literal. All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven.

 

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit. John said: John 4:24: “God is spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” and in 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

 

 

 

 

Edited by deade
Added Heb. 11.

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Hi nolidad,

 

I see we are still disagreeing. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him. Those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him. Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven. John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

 

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to the literal. All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven.

 

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit. John said: John 4:24: “God is spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” and in 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

 

 

 

 

Hi Deade- what you are doing is splitting hairs! It may be a coming but not the Coming the angels said in Acts or Jesus said in JOhn! But when Jesus descends into the atmosphere He will raise the believing dead and transform us :

 

1 thess.:4 5 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

versus Rev. 19:

 

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

 

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

 

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

 

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

So then using your methodology of interpretation- this must be a third coming because the church is in heaven with Jesus when He returns to earth with the church! Cuz the church isin heaven already before Jesus leaves heaven here!

 

and you are wrong grammatically and biblically about no man before Jesus ascended into heaven. YOU now have Enoch wandering around somewhere- for Scripture says he was translated (taken up so that he should not see death,)

 

Also Elijah was taken up in death.

 

Now as for teh mount of transfiguration- the word Jesus used in Matthew is horama- which in its primary usage is something seen! When coupled with the same passage in Mark 9 the eido is used which means to gaze upon. This was a literal and not ethereal thing that took place. Moses and Elijah were there!

 

As for our glorified bodies. Your error is that you reject other passages and thus have only a partiual view.

[h=1]1 Corinthians 15:43-45King James Version (KJV)[/h]

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

 

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

Teh word body is the same-soma There is a spirit body! what it is composed of we do not know. but Jesus rose and ascended into heaven in a body- not as a spirit! And we shall be like HIm!

 

So despite the hyper parsing of the word "Coming" When Jesus descends to get HIs bride and bring it back to heaven--prior to the 70th week of Daniel it is not the coming spoken of by Jesus and the angels!

 

 

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The thousand years come before the Lord's return on the last day. They are the same thousand years during which Satan is bound in the bottomless pit.

 

At the end of those years, he will be released, go up to heaven to make war with the holy angels, be defeated, cast down to earth, and enter the person of the antichrist, and the events of the Tribulation will begin, culminating with the return of Christ on the last day.

 

The Tribulation was shortened by God, for the sake of the elect (Christians), from seven years to approximately three and a half. At the end of these days, Jesus will return. (There will not be a thousand year reign after the last day.)

 

Both the holy angels and the spirits of the saints who have died will return with Jesus on the last day. The dead in Christ will both return with Him AND be raised from the dead in new bodies. Their spirits, which will return from heaven with Jesus, will be united with new incorruptible bodies that God will create on that day, and in which they will rise from their graves.

 

The saints who are currently reigning with Christ (in heaven), as they have been for nearly a thousand years, are saints who have already died. Obviously they didn't taken the mark of the beast or worship his image, because those things haven't been implemented/instituted yet. Some of these saints were beheaded. "They lived" refers to them having been born again (which is the first resurrection).

 

The first resurrection refers to being born again, not to rapture. The second resurrection is the resurrection of all who have died physically (both the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead), on the last day when Jesus returns. (These two resurrections are explained in John 5:25-29)

 

The earth on which the saints will reign (Revelation 5:10) is the new one, not this one; and that reign will be eternal (Rev 22:5), not a thousand years.

 

 

You are a post millenialist!

 

Well you are entitled to your opinion but what you wrote is not Scripture!

[h=1]Revelation 20King James Version (KJV)[/h]

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

 

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

The 70th week of Daniel (also known as the tribulation) will not be shortened! the word "days" is hemera- which means a 24 hour day! So why would god shorten the literal days in the 2nd half of teh 70th week of Daniel?

From Rev. 16

 

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

 

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

 

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

 

Those days were shortened by darkness lest every man died!

 

YOu say saints have been reigning with Christ in heaven for nearly a thousand years now: So what big event occurred around 920 that started teh church reigning in heaven with Jesus. What about the rest of the church that is still on earth???

 

Sorry but this spiritualized method of interpretation does not make sense.

 

 

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Sorry but this spiritualized method of interpretation does not make sense.

It's make perfect sense to the person using "spiritualization"; it doesn't make sense if you use a literal hermeneutic.

 

 

Smiles ... I am enjoying this. I'll throw a little 'gas on the fire'

 

Differing Hermeneutics (and thus we will never agree; for we use differing methods to understanding portions of scripture)

 

Spiritualization: Without reading the Bible at face value teachers can teach anything. This latter wrong use of scripture has been described by others as spiritualizing the Bible.

Spiritualizing can be defined as detaching the Bible from its literal sense by:

  • Removing the contextual limitations so that any passage in scripture can be used to help anyone in any way at any time.
  • Diminishing any sense of dogmatism. No one can fully understand God, and so no one can claim to know right or wrong, truth, or good and bad for everyone.
  • Making the Bible a mystical book interpreted by ones feelings and emotions. There is no absolute meaning.
  • A spiritualization of the Scriptures doesn’t have any authority.
  • Allegorized interpretations are not based on anything objective. They can’t be verified. They are based solely on the subjective preferences and whims of the interpreter’s imagination. This becomes obvious when you hear another person teach on the same passage and they have an entirely different twist on the story. One person says that such and such a thing represents this, while another person says it really represents this. This is one of the reasons allegorized interpretations are dangerous. There are no guidelines, or boundaries.

Without taking the Bible “at its word” there is no fact of history. Spiritualization presents the Bible as fictional stories without any basis in true history or events.

Without God saying what he means to say there is no reason to reconcile the doctrinal differences through right division. Without real figures in a real context then good and bad exists only in the eye of the spiritualizing interpreter.

 

... and I am sure there is a contrary argument to be made

 

Peace

 

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Sorry but this spiritualized method of interpretation does not make sense.

It's make perfect sense to the person using "spiritualization"; it doesn't make sense if you use a literal hermeneutic.

 

 

Smiles ... I am enjoying this. I'll throw a little 'gas on the fire'

 

Differing Hermeneutics (and thus we will never agree; for we use differing methods to understanding portions of scripture)

 

Spiritualization: Without reading the Bible at face value teachers can teach anything. This latter wrong use of scripture has been described by others as spiritualizing the Bible.

Spiritualizing can be defined as detaching the Bible from its literal sense by:

  • Removing the contextual limitations so that any passage in scripture can be used to help anyone in any way at any time.
  • Diminishing any sense of dogmatism. No one can fully understand God, and so no one can claim to know right or wrong, truth, or good and bad for everyone.
  • Making the Bible a mystical book interpreted by ones feelings and emotions. There is no absolute meaning.
  • A spiritualization of the Scriptures doesn’t have any authority.
  • Allegorized interpretations are not based on anything objective. They can’t be verified. They are based solely on the subjective preferences and whims of the interpreter’s imagination. This becomes obvious when you hear another person teach on the same passage and they have an entirely different twist on the story. One person says that such and such a thing represents this, while another person says it really represents this. This is one of the reasons allegorized interpretations are dangerous. There are no guidelines, or boundaries.

Without taking the Bible “at its word” there is no fact of history. Spiritualization presents the Bible as fictional stories without any basis in true history or events.

Without God saying what he means to say there is no reason to reconcile the doctrinal differences through right division. Without real figures in a real context then good and bad exists only in the eye of the spiritualizing interpreter.

 

... and I am sure there is a contrary argument to be made

 

Peace

Very well stated.

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It's make perfect sense to the person using "spiritualization"; it doesn't make sense if you use a literal hermeneutic.

 

 

Smiles ... I am enjoying this. I'll throw a little 'gas on the fire'

 

Differing Hermeneutics (and thus we will never agree; for we use differing methods to understanding portions of scripture)

 

Spiritualization: Without reading the Bible at face value teachers can teach anything. This latter wrong use of scripture has been described by others as spiritualizing the Bible.

Spiritualizing can be defined as detaching the Bible from its literal sense by:

  • Removing the contextual limitations so that any passage in scripture can be used to help anyone in any way at any time.
  • Diminishing any sense of dogmatism. No one can fully understand God, and so no one can claim to know right or wrong, truth, or good and bad for everyone.
  • Making the Bible a mystical book interpreted by ones feelings and emotions. There is no absolute meaning.
  • A spiritualization of the Scriptures doesn’t have any authority.
  • Allegorized interpretations are not based on anything objective. They can’t be verified. They are based solely on the subjective preferences and whims of the interpreter’s imagination. This becomes obvious when you hear another person teach on the same passage and they have an entirely different twist on the story. One person says that such and such a thing represents this, while another person says it really represents this. This is one of the reasons allegorized interpretations are dangerous. There are no guidelines, or boundaries.

Without taking the Bible “at its word” there is no fact of history. Spiritualization presents the Bible as fictional stories without any basis in true history or events.

Without God saying what he means to say there is no reason to reconcile the doctrinal differences through right division. Without real figures in a real context then good and bad exists only in the eye of the spiritualizing interpreter.

 

... and I am sure there is a contrary argument to be made

 

Peace

 

You are so very correct. "Spiritualizing" the bible is mostly in the realm of churches who hold to some form of covenant theology.

When I teach hermeneutics in the church I attend- I drill hard on the literal historical and grammatical interpretation of Scripture.

 

I also in an apologetic vein teach people to ask those who hold ot an allegorical interpretation the following question.

 

If I am not to take the inspired writers of Scripture and even Jesus at the face value of their words- what authority do you present to compel me to take your interpretation at its face value?? In reality our brothers and sisters who hold to an allegorical interpretation of Scripture, want a literal hermeneutic of their "interpretation."

 

With that being said- I also believe that while there3 is only one interpretation of Scripture- there can be many applications of passages! I like to use the book of JOnah. I spent several months teaching JOnah and while we learned this was a literal actual event- there are many lessons to be learned and applied in our life from the account of Jonah!

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I believe the Scriptures are clear that both angels and teh church follow Jesus when He returns

I used to believe that but I have thought of something that makes me wonder if the church follows him. Immediately before his return we learn of the wedding of the Lamb. The church is the bride of Christ. Does someone who has just gotten married take his wife with him when he engages in a war of conquest?

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I believe the Scriptures are clear that both angels and teh church follow Jesus when He returns

I used to believe that but I have thought of something that makes me wonder if the church follows him. Immediately before his return we learn of the wedding of the Lamb. The church is the bride of Christ. Does someone who has just gotten married take his wife with him when he engages in a war of conquest?

A question -- when the Church is raptured / taken out of this world and is with Christ -- isn't That when the Bride of Christ is united With Christ? So when the 7 yrs of tribulation are taking place down here -- then again -- there will be multitudes accepting Christ during that time? Right? They Won't be part of the Church because the church will be gone and the Holy Spirit , right? The Rev. 20 passage lists several groups of people who Will reign with Christ here on earth. Won't there be government Then like there is Now? It's sort of fascinating to think about. What Scripture is telling us and what is being speculated about.

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I believe the Scriptures are clear that both angels and teh church follow Jesus when He returns

I used to believe that but I have thought of something that makes me wonder if the church follows him. Immediately before his return we learn of the wedding of the Lamb. The church is the bride of Christ. Does someone who has just gotten married take his wife with him when he engages in a war of conquest?

The church will be with Christ during the entire 7 years but a description of the wedding with the church is found in chapter 19, just before Christ returns to earth. Apparently our actual marriage won't take place until near the end of the 7 years.

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I believe the Scriptures are clear that both angels and teh church follow Jesus when He returns

I used to believe that but I have thought of something that makes me wonder if the church follows him. Immediately before his return we learn of the wedding of the Lamb. The church is the bride of Christ. Does someone who has just gotten married take his wife with him when he engages in a war of conquest?

Thanks for the chapter location.

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When I teach hermeneutics in the church I attend- I drill hard on the literal historical and grammatical interpretation of Scripture.

How does that possibly work with Revelation or Daniel?

 

The "literal historical and grammatical" gold head, iron and clay toes, many horns and the horn devouring little horn?

The "literal historical and grammatical" lampstands, sword coming out of his mouth, dragon eating a woman and her child?

 

I always strip mental gears when one part is so clearly an alegorical vision, and then somebody comes along insisting that the very next verse MUST (with absolute 100% certainty) be taken as a literal, future historical fact.

 

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Revelation 19:19-21 NASB

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 

Just a small aside, but I hear references to the great battle, or Jesus Army driving the enemy back. That is not what I read in the brief account in the last few verses of Revelation 19. The hosts of the Army of Evil gather for war. Jesus arrives ... and the battle is over as soon as it began. No one stands up and opposes God. Jesus just handles it ... all by himself. The Army of the Lord is just there to bear witness to the Glory of the Lord ... like Gideon blowing his trumpets. YMMV.

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When I teach hermeneutics in the church I attend- I drill hard on the literal historical and grammatical interpretation of Scripture.

How does that possibly work with Revelation or Daniel?

 

The "literal historical and grammatical" gold head, iron and clay toes, many horns and the horn devouring little horn?

The "literal historical and grammatical" lampstands, sword coming out of his mouth, dragon eating a woman and her child?

 

I always strip mental gears when one part is so clearly an alegorical vision, and then somebody comes along insisting that the very next verse MUST (with absolute 100% certainty) be taken as a literal, future historical fact.

Post number 18: https://www.christforums.org/forum/bible-prophecy/amillennialism/6066-the-rapture?p=6225#post6225

 

Hope this helps shift gears without sheering any more teeth off. :) There are clear indicators which should synchronize the reader while shifting from one method of interpretation to another.

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Hi nolidad,

 

I see we are still disagreeing. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him. Those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him. Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven. John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

 

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to the literal. All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven.

 

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit. John said: John 4:24: “God is spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” and in 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

 

 

 

 

Hi Deade- what you are doing is splitting hairs! It may be a coming but not the Coming the angels said in Acts or Jesus said in JOhn! But when Jesus descends into the atmosphere He will raise the believing dead and transform us :

 

1 thess.:4 5 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

versus Rev. 19:

 

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

 

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

 

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

 

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

So then using your methodology of interpretation- this must be a third coming because the church is in heaven with Jesus when He returns to earth with the church! Cuz the church isin heaven already before Jesus leaves heaven here!

 

and you are wrong grammatically and biblically about no man before Jesus ascended into heaven. YOU now have Enoch wandering around somewhere- for Scripture says he was translated (taken up so that he should not see death,)

 

Also Elijah was taken up in death.

 

Now as for teh mount of transfiguration- the word Jesus used in Matthew is horama- which in its primary usage is something seen! When coupled with the same passage in Mark 9 the eido is used which means to gaze upon. This was a literal and not ethereal thing that took place. Moses and Elijah were there!

 

As for our glorified bodies. Your error is that you reject other passages and thus have only a partiual view.

[h=1]1 Corinthians 15:43-45King James Version (KJV)[/h]

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

 

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

Teh word body is the same-soma There is a spirit body! what it is composed of we do not know. but Jesus rose and ascended into heaven in a body- not as a spirit! And we shall be like HIm!

 

So despite the hyper parsing of the word "Coming" When Jesus descends to get HIs bride and bring it back to heaven--prior to the 70th week of Daniel it is not the coming spoken of by Jesus and the angels!

 

Hi nolidad,

 

I know what a spiritual body is: it is spirit. Of course Christ ascended and came back in a physical body. He also generated physical bodies for Himself and two cherubim in the Plains of Mamre to talk to Abraham. God can do anything he wants.

 

John 4:24: “God is spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” This is what your spiritual bodies are. God does not need a body. We would not even recognize Him in His glorified form. 2 Corinthians 5:16: "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." He is now in glory.

 

Everything made in our universe was made by the unseen (spirits).

 

You may be a teacher to some, but not me.

 

Yours,

deade

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How does that possibly work with Revelation or Daniel?

 

The "literal historical and grammatical" gold head, iron and clay toes, many horns and the horn devouring little horn?

The "literal historical and grammatical" lampstands, sword coming out of his mouth, dragon eating a woman and her child?

 

I always strip mental gears when one part is so clearly an alegorical vision, and then somebody comes along insisting that the very next verse MUST (with absolute 100% certainty) be taken as a literal, future historical fact.

 

Hi atpollard,

 

I see what you mean by all the figurative language suddenly becoming literal. These old school prophecies they keep throwing at us leave much to be desired. I believe we are in the end days and God is correcting all the prophetic shortcomings.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

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I used to believe that but I have thought of something that makes me wonder if the church follows him. Immediately before his return we learn of the wedding of the Lamb. The church is the bride of Christ. Does someone who has just gotten married take his wife with him when he engages in a war of conquest?

 

Now you are equating human marriages with Jesus and the church! But if you really want to know how the wedding of the Lamb to his bride goes I refer you to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum and his free to download manuscript- The Jewish Wedding system and the Bride of Christ!

 

Also if the bible says it does--it does! Otherwise you have to explain why the bema judgment seat for eh church- the giving of rewards and the giving of our robes of righteousness- which all appear in Scripture BEFORE Jesus returns to earth when you think it occurs after!

 

Also why would the context of the passage in the beginning refer to the church receiving lines white and clean and the armies of heaven are clothed with linen fine and clean???

 

You have to add so many assumptions that are just unnatural for Scripture to get to another position!

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Revelation 19:19-21 NASB

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 

Just a small aside, but I hear references to the great battle, or Jesus Army driving the enemy back. That is not what I read in the brief account in the last few verses of Revelation 19. The hosts of the Army of Evil gather for war. Jesus arrives ... and the battle is over as soon as it began. No one stands up and opposes God. Jesus just handles it ... all by himself. The Army of the Lord is just there to bear witness to the Glory of the Lord ... like Gideon blowing his trumpets. YMMV.

 

Excellent point! Jesus alone does battle against the antichrist and all the world armies! This is even prophesied in Isaiah.

[h=1]Isaiah 63King James Version (KJV)[/h]

63 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

 

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

 

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

 

4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

 

5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

 

6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

 

 

this is the battle plan of Jesus.

 

In short:

 

1. the wedding takes place in heaven

2 the marriage supper

3. Jesus returns with the church to Bozrah/Petra

4. this is where the Jews have gathered ala Matthew 24: 15-18 and Revelation 12. (the woman is Israel)

5. Jesus foghts the antichrist back to Jerusalem where he slays him.

6. Jesus ascends the Mount of Olives and it splits in two. [h=1]Zechariah 14King James Version (KJV)[/h]

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

 

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

 

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south

 

 

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Hi atpollard,

 

I see what you mean by all the figurative language suddenly becoming literal. These old school prophecies they keep throwing at us leave much to be desired. I believe we are in the end days and God is correcting all the prophetic shortcomings.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

 

Well it is not prophetic shortcomings- it is the failure of God's people to handle the word correctly . but more and more people are giving up the sin of privately interpreting Gods Word and allowing it to stand on its own as they study hard!

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How does that possibly work with Revelation or Daniel?

 

The "literal historical and grammatical" gold head, iron and clay toes, many horns and the horn devouring little horn?

The "literal historical and grammatical" lampstands, sword coming out of his mouth, dragon eating a woman and her child?

 

I always strip mental gears when one part is so clearly an alegorical vision, and then somebody comes along insisting that the very next verse MUST (with absolute 100% certainty) be taken as a literal, future historical fact.

 

It is not an allegorical vision- but a vision using symbols!!! The symbols are all defined in Scripture! The literal hermeneutic recognizes the use of symbols and "apocalyptic" language. But it also recognizes that the bible defines all of its symbols and we need not go outside of Scripture to define these symbols. We look to history and time to see prophesies fulfilled and what exactly general terms are fulfilled- but prophesy is not that hard!

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#10.2

theophilus commented

01-22-2018, 09:31 AM

The church will be with Christ during the entire 7 years but a description of the wedding with the church is found in chapter 19, just before Christ returns to earth. Apparently our actual marriage won't take place until near the end of the 7 years.

 

Actually read closely! The wedding takes place in the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. It is the wedding supper that takes place at the end of the 7 years. To we gentiles this may seem confusing, but when you realize that theentire church age follows th e marriage process in Israel for centuries then it makes much sense,

 

Pentecost--Jesus betroths the church and gives the Holy Spirit as the arrobahn (bride price/earnest/ engagement ring)

Jesus ascends to heaven-why?

[h=1]John 14King James Version (KJV)[/h]

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

 

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

 

After the "engagement has been sealed- the groom would go back to His father's house and prepare a room for him and his bride.

 

When the time is right- the Father tells his son to fetch his bride (the rapture).

 

teh wedding ceremony takes place with very few witnesses.

Then the 7 day celebration (for the church 7 years)

Then the marriage supper after the celebration! When bride and groom are shown to a great crowd!

 

http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs113m.pdf

 

 

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Hi deade.

 

This is in answer to your comment of my post:6 and your comment 6.1 ( i do not know how to comment on a comment of my post other than putting it at the end of the chain!)

 

Yes in the OT theophanies, Jesus had one body he used- He did not manufacture bodies to use at will!

 

Jesus physicall arose from teh dead! And the body that he physically rose with- He ascended in to heaven with as the first fruits of the resurrection! Jesus is not an immaterial spirit! Neither is god the Father or the Holy Spirit- we just cannot observe them due to our sin natures!

 

But also when Jesus returns, he returns with HIs glorified body He rose from the dead with! 1 Cor. 15 makes this clear!

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      in God (Trinitarian doctrines)

    • The true worship of Jesus by the Jehovah's Witnesses (2 Timothy 4:16-18)

      2 Timothy 4:16-18 (16) At my first defense no one supported me, but all deserted me; may it not be counted against them. (17) But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that through me the proclamation might be fully accomplished, and that all the Gentiles might hear; and I was rescued out of the lion’s mouth. (18) The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (NASB)   In their book Stay Close to Jehovah's Organization the Jehovah's Witnesses assert the following (the bold face is mine):  Even if you do find yourself isolated from all your Christian brothers, keep in mind that you are not isolated from Jehovah and his Son, Jesus Christ. Your hope can remain firm. Jehovah can still hear your prayers, and he can strengthen you with his spirit. Look to him for guidance. Remember that you are a servant of Jehovah and a disciple of Jesus Christ. Therefore, make good use of opportunities to witness. Jehovah will bless your efforts, and others may soon join you in true worship.—Acts 4:13-31; 5:27-42; Phil. 1:27-30; 4:6, 7; 2 Tim. 4:16-18. (Organized to Do Jehovah's Will, see the 5th to the last paragraph). https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014947    As with all the other passages cited 2 Timothy 4:16-18 is also used in reference to true worship.   Notice though that the Jehovah's Witnesses affirm that the "Lord" in both 2 Timothy 4:17 and 2 Timothy 4:18 refers to the Lord Jesus.      a. Our Kingdom Ministry—2014: Even in his heavenly position, Jesus shows personal interest. (2 Tim. 4:17) (Improving Our Skills in the Ministry—Showing Personal Interest) https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/202014401      b. The Watchtower: The individuals hearing Jesus could, if they faithfully served God, have the expectation of reigning with Christ in heaven. (2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 20:4, 6) (Questions From Readers, March 1, 1967). https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1967167    Thus the Jehovah's Witnesses (inadvertently?) affirm that true worship is properly rendered unto the Lord Jesus.  

      in Arianism

    • Why Did Jesus Sleep During the Storm?

      The story of the sea storm in the Gospel of Mark picks up right after Jesus has given a series of sermons. He’s preached to a crowd so large that he had to speak from a boat pushed a short distance into the water. Mark 4:35–41 tells the story of Jesus calming the storm—but, curiously, we find the Lord asleep as the chaos breaks out around him: And a great windstorm arose, and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion. And they woke him and said to him, “Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?” And he awoke and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. (Mark 4:37–39) Why was Jesus asleep in the boat? There are a few possible explanations. Mark, as well as most of the other biblical authors, is spare with his details—including only those elements necessary to the author’s agenda—so we could assume it’s a salient element to the story. There are three possibilities. 1. A Link to Jonah Perhaps Mark tells us Jesus is sleeping in order to link the account to Jonah. The story of Jonah shares similar elements and language (in its Greek translation) to the one in Mark 4, which suggests Mark is evoking the story. One is the idea of the main character sleeping in the bottom of the boat during the storm, though the language used to describe Jonah is more vivid and possibly pejorative. 2. A Clue about Jesus’s Humanity Jesus is fully human: He works hard, does much public speaking, and deals with many different people, all of whom want something from him. Given the strains ordinary ministers experience in their daily work, the fully human Jesus must have suffered from exhaustion during his earthly ministry. 3. A Clue about Jesus’s Divinity Though Jesus is a human, he also has full confidence in his divine identity. As only the second person of the Trinity can, Jesus sleeps like a baby amid the chaos, secure in the realization that he is one with the Creator, and his time has not come. His sleep signals divine insight: Jesus knows he’s not going to die tonight. Of course, all three of these explanations are possible at the same time, because human language in the hands of a skilled author can convey multiple complex ideas at once. Why These Three Options? Surely, the sleeping Jesus is supposed to make you think about Jonah’s story (the first option), where a suspicious storm develops and is quieted by God and all the witnesses are left terrified. Remember when the sailors cast lots, asking, “Who has brought this storm on us?” The lot falls on Jonah. They begrudgingly throw the prophet overboard, and the storm immediately dissipates. The emphasis is on who calms the storm. The Lord, Creator of heaven and earth, stills it, and the sailors know they have just witnessed God’s hand and his complete authority over the forces of creation. In Jonah 1:16, “the men feared the LORD exceedingly.” The Greek translation of this passage emphasizes the great fear the sailors experience when they see God’s power on display. It’s even greater than their fear of the storm (1:5). It’s fear-inducing to know that the cosmic God who calms the storm also cares about the rebellion of a single man. In Mark, Jesus also sleeps. The disciples wake him for fear of their lives (as in Jonah, the sleeper is roused with a rhetorical question), and the wind and waves are calmed. Mark seems to be drawing our attention to the agent who calms the storm. In Jonah, the agent is the Lord, but in Mark 4 it is Jesus. Jesus is to the storm in Mark 4 what God is to the wind and waves in Jonah 1. And as if to drive the point home, the disciples who bear witness to all of this are described in virtually the same phraseology used in the Greek translation of Jonah. They are “exceedingly afraid” (Mark 4:41).  The storm was terrifying, but this prophet in the boat with the power to speak truth to the weather presents an entirely new source of fear. The authority of God inspires such fear in those who see it firsthand. But the second option works as well. Jesus’s sleep in the boat is a reminder of his humanity. It’s a fascinating idea that there were regular moments when the God-man, the Lord of the universe, may have laid down and pondered some random thoughts before sleep overtook him. As a human, he could grow tired, even to a point of exhaustion. So he gets in the boat and lies back like a business traveler on a red-eye flight, trying to fit in sleep wherever he can. Mark’s audience could readily identify with Jesus’s humanity. The third option is also compelling. Just the fact that Jesus sleeps is a clue to his divinity. How? Jesus didn’t fear the wind and waves or anything they could do to him. The Creator need not be restless in the face of a dangerous creation. When Jonah secretly sleeps below the decks, he does so in a spirit of fatalism and dread. When Jesus sleeps in the hull of the boat, he does so in confidence. He doesn’t lose sleep on account of weather patterns. Jesus is more than a teacher; he’s a miracle-worker. Once the reader absorbs that point, Mark ups the ante. Jesus is more than a teacher and more than a miracle-worker. He has the authority of the Creator himself. View the full article

      in Christian Current Events

    • When did Jesus begin his ministry?

      Jesus was born during the reign of Caesar Augustus, and maybe two or three years before the death of Herod.  This puts his birth year in 7 BC or 6 BC.  He began his ministry when he was about thirty (Luke 3: 23), which would be about the year 23 AD or 24 AD.   But the ministry of Jesus was preceded by that of John, which began in the fifteenth year or the reign of Tiberius (Luke 3: 1&2) – either 28 AD or 29 AD.   So I am wondering: In which year did Jesus begin his ministry?  Also, in which year was he crucified?

      in Bible Study

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