Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Christian and Theologically Protestant? Or, sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Fenced Community

Christforums is a Protestant Christian forum, open to Bible-believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene- derived Christian Church. We do not solicit cultists of any kind, including Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Eastern Lightning, Falun Gong, Unification Church, Aum Shinrikyo, Christian Scientists or any other non-Nicene, non-Biblical heresy.
Register now

Christian Fellowship

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Sign in to follow this  
Serpardum

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath

Recommended Posts

I agree with seventh day worshippers (adventist and baptists) that the true sabbath is the seventh day, Saturday. When jesus and the apostles were caught gathering and hulking corn on the sabbath He made the statement that the sabbath was made for man.

 

With the sabbath in the bible I can find the main emphasis being on the sabbath being a day of rest. Mana not falling on the sabbath but a double portion on the day before. Jesus not allowing people to carry jugs of water in the temple on the sabbath.

 

I believe the devil thought he got one over on God when he influenced man to change the day of rest from Saturday to Sunday.

 

Of course, now we usually don't work on both Saturday or Sunday so we get two days of rest! Take that, Satan!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I've been to Seventh day Adventist churches and to my dismay all they ever preach is the Sabbath, how it's what sets apart the "true church" from the all the other apostate churches and that sort of thing. Christianity is supposed to be a way of life. Keeping the sabbath or attempting to and neglecting everything else won't get anyone to heaven. Love God, obey Jesus commandments and love your neighbor. Anyone who does that is a child of God. Anyone who doesn't still has some way to go.

Share this post


Link to post

I agree, Smithee, and is one reason I don't normally go to a seventh day Adventist church because I already know the message I'm going to hear, I've heard it every time I've been there. I've never been to a seventh day Baptist church so I don't know about them, however, there is none close to me.

Share this post


Link to post
I've been to Seventh day Adventist churches and to my dismay all they ever preach is the Sabbath, how it's what sets apart the "true church" from the all the other apostate churches and that sort of thing. Christianity is supposed to be a way of life. Keeping the sabbath or attempting to and neglecting everything else won't get anyone to heaven. Love God, obey Jesus commandments and love your neighbor. Anyone who does that is a child of God. Anyone who doesn't still has some way to go.

 

As one ex-SDA told me "worship the Sabbath, keep the Jesus"

 

As a former orthodox Jew I can say that SDA-ism is the weirdest idea I ever came across. In Judaism, the Sabbath is a covenant sign (it's in the book of Exodus), and Gentiles aren't in the Covenant. Therefore the 7th day will always be the Sabbath, but Gentiles are not bound to it anymore than they are bound to circumcision, teffilin, or tzitzis.

 

...and that's one reason I became a Lutheran. They got the Judaic understanding of the Law right. :-) Last time I told an SDA that, he lost his temper with me. It was hilarious.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

In my mind there is a distinction between the 10 commandments which are written in stone, literally, and the mosaic law which I think of as ordinances.

 

Even when Paul speaks about us not being under the law he says the law is now love God and love thy neighbor which jesus says the commandments are founded on. I read this as we are no longer under the mosaic ordinances but still under the 10 commandments.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
In my mind there is a distinction between the 10 commandments which are written in stone, literally, and the mosaic law which I think of as ordinances.

 

Even when Paul speaks about us not being under the law he says the law is now love God and love thy neighbor which jesus says the commandments are founded on. I read this as we are no longer under the mosaic ordinances but still under the 10 commandments.

 

 

I generally view the Two Greatest Commandments as a summation of the Ten Commandments (Statutes, Ordinances and Decrees). And while the Law sends us to the Gospel to be Justified, the Gospel sends us back again to the Law to inquire what is our duty as Christians.

 

But I think you're touching upon something important. Christianity is quite different than religion to a born again or regenerate believer. What others take as rules, ordinances, etc and/or works, the regenerate Christian does from a desire seated in the heart wishing to please God. A desire for God that was not there until being born from above.

 

In some ways an analogy can be formed, your use of the Stone is removed from the Ten Commandments, and it is fleshed out in a heart put there in its stead. The Law shows us that we are rebellious, yet the heart of stone refuses to repent, to love God, or to please Him Romans 8:8. The Law demonstrates our Total inability or Depravity. That is, hearts of the natural man are so hardened that man cannot even seek God on their own Romans 3:11, and that’s why Jesus said "no one can come to Him unless the Father first draws him" John 6:44.

 

In Ezekiel 36:25-27

  • 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
  • 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
  • 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

God bless,

William

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

There are actually 613 commandments given in the Old Testament. None were considered optional to those to whom they were given.

 

Here's my spin on the whole law thing.

 

There are moral laws which reflect the Divine nature- and each of these moral laws have both a positive and a negative application. Moral Law was given to Adam and Eve as well as Noah- indicating that the Moral Law applies to all of their descendants- all humanity.

 

Additional Civil and Ceremonial laws were given to Abraham first and later to his descendants the people of Israel and those specific laws apply to them. However, each ceremonial or civil law has a moral aspect, both positive and negative- so all the laws of God are related in some manner. Therefore each of these laws has an outward aspect and an inward aspect. The inward, spiritual aspect is attached to the moral law and therefore that moral law will continue. The outward form of the ceremonial or civil law may change or be abrogated- but this outward aspect certainly never applied to those who they were not given to anyway.

 

This is why Paul, following this Jewish understanding of the law, spoke against circumcision for the Gentiles- it was neither given to them nor needed for their spiritual benefit. The outward aspect of the removal of skin is unnecessary but the inward motive of faith and obedience lives on as a moral law. The Jerusalem Council agreed (Acts 15).

 

The Ten Commandments summarize the commandments given to Israel, however, they are more than that as one can see they are mainly summaries of the moral law for all mankind in particular. Each ceremonial or civil law is connected to the Ten, although the way in which it is outwardly observed is not given. For example, the commandment against adultery does not mention how many wives or husbands one may have or at what age one should marry etc. Details for those outward applications are established in the other laws, even left at the discretion of the Sanhedrin (council of elders) in some cases. Obviously Gentiles not living in the Covenant between God and Israel alone nor living under Israel's civil rulers are not bound to them. However, they are bound to the commandment against adultery as it is moral law and even connected to Adam and Eve's commandment to procreate.

 

Christ's Two greatest commandments summarize all 613, teaching their moral and eternal nature. (However Christ did not "invent" that summary either, it is derived from Rabbi Hillel around a century prior, as are the Beatitudes) Christ also understood the proper application of the law must be guided by love and grace. For example, when Christ's disciples clearly violated the Sabbath He reminded those against Him that it is permissible to violate the negative aspect of a law to fulfill a positive commandment. David, He said, ate the shewbread to survive, something clearly forbidden. Jesus also healed on the Sabbath, and in His defense He reminded those against Him that one is allowed to circumcise on the Sabbath, even though the Law forbids the shedding of blood on the Sabbath. So a positive commandment overrules a negative when they clash- usually with the caveat that human life is preserved in the case at hand.

 

So, let's look at the Sabbath law. Clearly there is a moral application- that of having rest from labor to spend time with God. Then there is an outward, civil application- national rest on the seventh day (which is called a unique sign between God and Israel in Ex 31:12-17) However, the rest of the laws contain many different kinds of sabbaths. So the Sabbath has a moral aspect but the civil, national observance (Sabbath keeping) is unique to Israel as a covenant sign. Just like the Covenant sign for Abraham was circumcision and Gentiles are not required to do it, and baptism and Holy Communion are Covenant signs of the New Testament and unbelievers are not bound to them, so Sabbath keeping is not binding on Gentiles. The inward truth remains, but the outward observance is not prescribed for the nations (and Israel had to make specific rulings regarding its observance based on what was received from God). Rather, Christ has redeemed all days and times, so all are holy and any may be used for holy observances.

 

When one approaches the commandments with this understanding the words of the NT make sense, and likewise how and why OT laws were applied or not. We can see why all the Sabbaths - and other commanded and compulsory festivals- are called "shadows". We can see why the Council of Jerusalem allowed unkosher food for the Gentile converts, we can see why circumcision was not obligatory nor given to Gentiles and why those who taught otherwise were anathematized. But we can also see why Paul circumcised Timothy, why he went to the Temple and made offerings (no better analogy of the relationship between Jewish and Gentile observances can be found than in Acts 21:17-26- and it can only make sense when the Law is seen in the way I have described). Simply put, pertaining to outward observances of the law Jews did Jewish things and Gentiles did Gentile things, but pertaining to the spiritual, moral, eternal law, all are bound to it and lived by it.

 

To sever the Ten Commandments and superficially elevate them from their context brings more confusion that it claims to clear up. For example, clearly Dt 22:5 is a moral law, but it is not specifically mentioned in the Ten and clearly also has a clearly prescribed application. One who breaks this law has morally profaned God and has caused an abomination. However, the Sabbath Law, inscribed in stone, has many caveats that demonstrate it can legally be broken. Priests worked on the Sabbath, animals could be rescued, blood could be shed, lives can be saved and even food could be picked all on the Sabbath in certain circumstances. So clearly the Sabbath law is not of the same gravity as the law against cross-dressing. While this is a problem that dissolves for orthodox Christianity it is a problem for SDA's and others that leads to even more questions, locking them in a continuous game of theological whack-a-mole.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Topics

    • [POLL] Should Christians Rest and Keep Holy the Sabbath Day?

      Just as a note, God's word is all that matters and this is just a poll to see where people stand on this. I am struggling with the question myself but I believe we should observe the Sabbath. Both sides make some good arguments whenever this is discussed.

      in General Faith

    • How do you observe the Sabbath?

      Just as a sidenote from the other thread, how do you observe the sabbath? Aside from religious services, I've heard of groups who say that you should do absolutely nothing in the Sabbath, to the extent of not turning on lights, or travelling (not sure how they attend church), and others who say it should simply be a day that work is set aside, so gardening, leisure activities, and those things that give minds a rest from work are acceptable. I fall more towards the second group. Aside from religious activities it is a time for things that help me recover from the week, think about anything other than work, so books, study, etc. that I wouldn't otherwise get a chance to, and refresh my energy ready to face the next week.   How do you observe it?

      in General Faith

    • Christians are not under the command to obey the 7th day Sabbath (Colossians 2:16)

      Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day. (NASB)   Colossians 2:16 teaches that Christians are not under the command to obey the 7th day Sabbath. If one chooses to do so it is fine as long as they don't command others to do so.   1. NIDNTT: Here Paul argues that the Jewish law (the legal demands) were cancelled in the death of Christ (v. 14), and therefore the Jewish food regulations and religious calendar are not binding on the Christian. Included in this ritual was the Jewish sabbath observance. These observances, Paul claims, pointed to a spiritual reality fulfilled in Christ (3:410, Sabbath, W. Stott). 2. EDNT: Questions concerning the Sabbath also play a role in the religious disputes in the church at Colossae (Col 2:16). Like festivals and new moons sabbath observance is only a shadow of what is to come (3:222, sabbaton, W. Beilner). 3. TDNT: With liberation from bondage to the elementary principles of the world the dogmata are also set aside, so that the Christian community is definitely freed from the Sabbath commandment (7:30, sabbaton, Lohse).   A few other things ought to be pointed out: a. As with Colossians 2:16 in the Old Covenant the Sabbath was coupled with new moons and festivals/feasts which would include the weekly Sabbath (1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 8:13; 31:3; Nehemiah 10:33; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). Just as Christians do not have to obey the commands in regards to new moons and festivals so too they do not have to obey the command of the 7th day Sabbath. b. Some may insist that the plural "sabbaton" is used in Colossians 2:16 so it doesn't refer to the weekly Sabbath. However, this argument is invalid because the plural elsewhere refers to the weekly Sabbath (Luke 4:16; Exodus 20:8 LXX). c. Still another argument used is to affirm that there isn't a definite article ("the") before "Sabbath" in Colossians 2:16 so it can't refer to the weekly Sabbath. However, there also isn't a definite article before the Sabbath in John 5:9 (in the Greek text) and yet it refers to the weekly Sabbath.   As pointed out elsewhere all the old Covenant commands are obsolete.[*1] Only those that are repeated in the New Covenant are binding on the Christian.[*2]     [*1] https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...te-herews-8-13   [*2] See post #24 https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...bath-day/page2

      in Apologetics and Theology

    • Why do most modern Christians only follow 9 of the 10 commandments? [Sabbath Day]

      I was told that I was required to work today and I called in and said that I would not work because I guard the 10 commandments. I live in an "at will" state and have a high probability of being fired for doing this, but I believe that I have done the right thing at this time. If I have not done the right thing, why is this so and where can it be found in scripture? My interpretation of what Jesus spoke against was not the law of Moses, but against the ridiculous additions that were made to it by the scribes and Pharisees. I also know that the Sabbath day (or seventh day) was created before the law of Moses.   The Sabbath day appears to be a gift from the most high to mankind for rest and for learning about God (Jesus taught in the tabernacle on the Sabbath day routinely, and this is why I want to learn about the Sabbath day now), and it feels wrong to deny a gift from God.

      in Bible Study

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.