Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Christian and Theologically Protestant? Or, sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Fenced Community

Christforums is a Protestant Christian forum, open to Bible-believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene- derived Christian Church. We do not solicit cultists of any kind, including Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Eastern Lightning, Falun Gong, Unification Church, Aum Shinrikyo, Christian Scientists or any other non-Nicene, non-Biblical heresy.
Register now

Christian Fellowship

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Sign in to follow this  
theophilus

Creation Manifesto

Recommended Posts

Here is a blog post that summarizes most of the Biblical and scientific arguments in favor of creation and against evolution: https://apolojedi.com/2014/08/31/creation-manifesto/

 

Here is the introduction to the post.

 

Tell me if you’ve heard this before, “Could God have used evolution as his creative mechanism?”

 

I have had several friends tell me that the evolutionary origins story is compatible with the whole biblical narrative and that there is no need to reject the evolutionary story. I would like to take on that claim and analyze it against God’s Word and later against some scientific observations.

 

The purpose for writing this manifesto is this:

  1. Define evolution and look at its history / intent
  2. Look at scripture to see if (as a whole) it can accommodate evolution. If not, what are the implications of trying to dissolve evolution into the biblical narrative?
  3. Look at the scientific reasons why evolution might not be on as solid ground as we’ve been led to believe.

The post is made up of links to others sites on the blog that you will need to read.

Edited by theophilus
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Could it be that Genius is about the creation of Eden while Earth is on the other side of the door? Eden has two magic trees and doesn't exist here because Adam and Eve were thrown out. So isn't it possible that evolution is part of how Earth works? God set up systems that keep the world in balance, like gravity keeps the planets revolving around the sun. I simply don't think we understand evolutions well enough yet. But God made this world so there is no reason for him not to use evolution.

Share this post


Link to post
But God made this world so there is no reason for him not to use evolution.

 

 

There is one very important reason he couldn't have used evolution. Evolution requires that old forms of life die and be replaced with newer forms. The Bible says that there was no death in the world until Adam sinned.

Sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.

(Romans 5:12 ESV)

Man and all forms of animal life were created to be vegetarians.

And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.

(Genesis 1:29-30 ESV)

It was only after sin entered the world that some animals became carnivores and lived by killing other animals.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

There is one very important reason he couldn't have used evolution. Evolution requires that old forms of life die and be replaced with newer forms. The Bible says that there was no death in the world until Adam sinned.

Sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.

(Romans 5:12 ESV)

Man and all forms of animal life were created to be vegetarians.

And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.

(Genesis 1:29-30 ESV)

It was only after sin entered the world that some animals became carnivores and lived by killing other animals.

 

No, there was not death in Eden not Earth. God didn't say anything about Earth. Name one place on the world that has only vegetarians. It doesn't exist here. There have never been a nomadic human society of vegetarians because we're omnivores. While you can get your protein from vegetables, you have to eat an insane about of vegetables to get your amino acids. But the creation story makes perfect sense if Eden just exists some dimension between here and Heaven. Earth is where God sent Adam and Eve to be punished, to go farm for their food instead of just picking off some trees. As for death, death hadn't existed in Eden because it was paradise but God made humans mortal and sent them to Earth, where death already existed. Evolution works for Earth but not Eden. God kept his promise about killing Adam and Eve if they ate the fruit, though he never said when exactly, and they did die in a world where death exists.

Share this post


Link to post
Name one place on the world that has only vegetarians. It doesn't exist here.

Of course no such place exists now because of the effects of sin.

 

But the creation story makes perfect sense if Eden just exists some dimension between here and Heaven.

But the creation account in Genesis 1 is about God's creation of earth, not Eden.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Creation and evolution stories usually differ because each theory talks differently about time. As per the creation story, everything is said to have happened within a very short time, ie within few thousand years. The Bible does not talk about what has been discovered scientifically or what we continue to discover. Creation of stars and galaxies in our universe has been proven to take billions of years, something which contradicts the theory of creation. I usually suggest that there is a crucial part of the Bible that might be missing or got lost during translation. It seems that we have not yet known how we should be counting years in relation to creation.

Share this post


Link to post
Creation of stars and galaxies in our universe has been proven to take billions of years, something which contradicts the theory of creation.

It has not been proven. Most scientists assume that the universe has always operated as it does now and reject the idea that God has intervened. If that were true then the universe and the stars would have taken billions of years to form. When we discuss the origin of the universe we are talking about history, not science. In order to properly interpret the data we have we must know what God did in the past. If we start with a wrong assumption then all of our conclusions will be wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Creation and evolution stories usually differ because each theory talks differently about time. As per the creation story, everything is said to have happened within a very short time, ie within few thousand years. The Bible does not talk about what has been discovered scientifically or what we continue to discover. Creation of stars and galaxies in our universe has been proven to take billions of years, something which contradicts the theory of creation. I usually suggest that there is a crucial part of the Bible that might be missing or got lost during translation. It seems that we have not yet known how we should be counting years in relation to creation.

 

If one allows a basic concept of a Personal God, 'The Creator', then one allows that that Creator can have instantly created anything that now exists, less that seven thousand years ago, regardless of how old it looks.

 

This is not to say that there are no logical problems that we might rightly normally deduce from what now appears. But, as they say, 'Ordinary Providence inherently is non-propositional'.

 

In the case in which one fails, in most former centuries, to perceptually unify one's experience of gravity, one might think that physical reality inherently is a function of the supposedly fixed 'perpendicular'. But just the biological experience of balance should normally suggest that gravity is not insensibly so fixed. Add to that a few dozen visually seen miles of travel over the very wide open terrain that is a wide beach, and the gravity question most naturally is deduced-sensed to be relative to mass.

 

But history of the physical world is not this gravity, especially if one has not been alive for very long. And, don't even secular cosmologists today teach that the nature of the physical world is both astonishingly bizarre and very complex?

 

I'll stick with a naive, and entirely terrestrially oriented, reading of Genesis 1.

Share this post


Link to post

There are many theories about creation and evolution. However, we make many assumptions and hope that we are right. The whole existence of mankind and the universe has been a great mystery.There is a saying that is often used "God only knows" and no matter how we may try to say we know, it's pure speculation. God has revealed to us what he believes is necessary for us to know and there it is.

Share this post


Link to post

A friend of mine told me that there are bible verses that mentions dinosaurs! I know most Atheist uses the dinosaurs as arguments against Christians but Leviathan: Job 41 mentioned creatures that describes what we call dinosaurs. I don't know what particular verses are mentioned but I heard dinosaurs are also mentioned in the book of Job.

 

Dinosaur is more of a modern term given by humans but I think they are the behemoths and dragons being mentioned at the bible.

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
There have never been a nomadic human society of vegetarians because we're omnivores. While you can get your protein from vegetables, you have to eat an insane about of vegetables to get your amino acids.

 

When your diet is bland-based, you do eat an "insane" amount of vegetables, because you aren't eating anything else. With the exception of B12, I live very well on a plant-based diet, and I could get more B12 if I actually dd some ravening and also didn't was my food so well.

 

 

 

Essential Amino Acid

  •  Isoleucine:
  •  Leucine:
  •  Lysine:
  •  Methionine:
  •  Phenylalanine:

High-Content Plant-Based Foods

 

seaweed, watercress, pumpkin leaves, swiss chard, Chinese cabbage, horseradish tree (the leafy tips), spinach, kidney beans, alfalfa seeds, sunflower seeds, sesame seeds, soy, baking yeast, soy, wheat, almonds, rice, bananas, apricots, peaches, avocados, persimmons, apricots, dates, kiwi, apples, oranges, cranberries, blueberries, plantains

 

seaweed, pumpkin leaves, watercress, horseradish tree (the leafy tips), alfalfa seeds, turnip greens, kidney beans, sesame seed, sunflower seeds, soy, peanuts, rice, bananas, apricots, peaches, guavas, avocados, figs, persimmons, raisins, pears, dates, apples, kiwi, olives, blueberries

 

watercress, seaweed, parsley, soy, wheat, buckwheat, amaranth, apricots, bananas, tamarinds, avocados, peaches, guavas, dates, oranges, pears, plantains, plums, watermelon

 

seaweed, sesame seeds, whole wheat, rice, peaches, avocados, figs, peaches, oranges, kiwi, pears, grapes, raisins, apricots, plantains, guavas, plums, blueberries, cantaloupe, ripe olives, persimmons (note the level of methionine in soy is so low that it is considered to make soy a bad choice for a complete protein.)

 

seaweed, watercress, pumpkin leaves, horseradish tree (the leafy tips), kidney beans, spinach, turnip greens, skunk cabbage, broccoli raab, swiss chard, amaranth leaves, cottonseed, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, pigeon peas, lupin seeds, soy, whole grains, peanuts, almonds, avocado, rice, avocados, apricots, bananas, raisins, peaches, plums, figs, persimmons, oranges, dates, pears, grapefruit, elderberries, apples, star fruit, ripe olives

 

Alternative Health Improvement Center Page 1 Phone: 770-937-9200 1640 Powers Ferry Road SE, Bldg 30-100 Web: ahicatlanta.com Marietta, GA 30067

  •  Threonine:
  •  Tryptophan:

watercress, seaweed, pumpkin leaves, spinach, skunk cabbage, horseradish tree (leafy tips), turnip greens, kidney beans, soybeans, alfalfa seeds, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, soy, wheat, some nuts, rice, peaches, apricots, bananas, guavas, figs, avocados, raisins, pears, dates

 

oat bran, seaweed, spinach, watercress, soybeans, horseradish tree (leafy tips) pumpkin leaves, mushrooms, turnip greens, broccoli raab, turnip greens, parsley, spinach, winged bean tubers and leaves, mustard greens, asparagus, beet greens, mushrooms, mung beans, kidney beans, bamboo shoots, lettuce (red leaf, butterhead, iceberg), mustard greens, amaranth leaves, chicory greens, asparagus, soybeans, cauliflower, Chinese cabbage, chives, kale, broccoli, taro leaves, zucchini, radicchio, kelp, collards, brussel sprouts, navy beans, pinto beans, swiss chard, lima beans, hearts of palm, broadbeans, savoy cabbage, green and red peppers, okra, turnips, winter squash, onions, green and yellow snap beans, celery, cucumber, some hot chili peppers, radishes, tomatoes, potatoes, pumpkin, green peas, garlic, corn, sesame seeds, cottonseed, sunflower seed, chia seeds, peanuts, rice, apricots, raisins, avocados, apples, plums persimmons, guavas, figs, kiwi, dates, oranges, peaches

 

seaweed, watercress, mushrooms, horseradish tree(leafy tips) pumpkin leaves, snowpeas, snap peas, turnip greens, kidney beans, spinach, skunk cabbage, broccoli raab, sunflower seed, sesame seed, cottonseed, soy, peanuts, whole grains, rice, bananas, peaches, figs, apricots, avocado, guavas, raisins, dates, pears, apples, persimmons, kiwi, cranberries, ripe olives, blueberries, oranges

 

http://alternativehealthatlanta.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/essential-amino-acids-in-plant-based-foods1.pdf

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Eden has two magic trees and doesn't exist here because Adam and Eve were thrown out

Eden no longer exists because it was destroyed in the Flood.

Share this post


Link to post

I do not think there are any scientific reasons why evolution cannot be true, and scientists have a strong case. But there are plenty of biblical reasons why it cannot be true, and that should settle the question - at least for Christians. In particular, Jesus seemed to believe that Adam and Eve were real people. Furthermore, it is difficult to hang on to a doctrine of original sin, unless Genesis 3 is taken at face value.

Edited by ThyWordisTruth
Stylistic

Share this post


Link to post

There is plenty of scientific evidence against evolution. Here is a site that is devoted exclusively to presenting some of this evidence.

 

http://scienceagainstevolution.info/index.shtml

 

I disagree. If you read past the first paragraph, you will discover that the person writing is a YEC (as well as a biologist):

 

http://toddcwood.blogspot.co.uk/2009...evolution.html

 

Even though I share their attitude towards the Bible, as being the ultimate authority in areas about which it speaks, YECs never sound convincing to me when they are trying to rubbish a theory which is outside their area of expertise.

 

Share this post


Link to post

The main problem I have with evolution is the billions of years that it supposedly took the earth / animals/ people to 'develop'. God Did create Adam and then Eve -- the two original people -- and the original sin. There are those who feel that it's too far-fetched to be 'real'. Well -- the race of human beings that have resulted in the here and now -- came from Somewhere -- and we certainly did Not 'develop' from some chimp or ape as distant relatives. Although some of us Do act like it.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
But God made this world so there is no reason for him not to use evolution.

That statement is definitely not a leap of faith. Christians -- at least -- can't have it both ways. Either God created a perfect creation in six literal 24-hour days, or He did not. If we deny this basic fact given to us by God Himself then we make God a liar.

 

Kindly note that the Ten Commandments were written on two tables (tablets) of stone by THE FINGER OF GOD. So whatever is enshrined in those Ten Commandments is immutable and irreversible. And what it says about creation is precisely what Genesis 1 and 2 say. So here it is from the King James Bible (Exodus 20):

 

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

 

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

 

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

 

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

When radiometric decay occurs, one of the byproducts is free Helium. An expectation for those who believe in long ages is that the atmosphere should have a great deal of Helium since they would expect the process of radiometric decay to have been happening for 4.5 billion years.

 

Is that a fact? Then why is there currently a worry that the helium in things like helium filled balloons is disappearing into space, and we are running out of the stuff when it is needed for more serious purposes - such as MRI scanners?

Share this post


Link to post
Could it be that Genius is about the creation of Eden while Earth is on the other side of the door? Eden has two magic trees and doesn't exist here because Adam and Eve were thrown out. So isn't it possible that evolution is part of how Earth works? God set up systems that keep the world in balance, like gravity keeps the planets revolving around the sun. I simply don't think we understand evolutions well enough yet. But God made this world so there is no reason for him not to use evolution.

 

Eden's two magic trees? Genesis Does say that amongst all the vegetation that Adam and Eve had to eat -- and apparently there was plenty -- there was one that they were Not to eat from -- only One. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Everything else was there For them. Satan was there to entice them To eat it -- to tell them that God didn't Really mean what He said. As soon as they Disobeyed God and ate some of the fruit -- they were immediately aware of their nakedness. They lost their innocence. The other tree was the Tree of Life. If they had been allowed to stay in the garden and had eaten from That tree, they would have lived forever in their Now sinful state -- they now new of Evil.

 

God is very capable of keeping this world in the balance that He sees fit. But it's the evil influences in this present world that affects it's balance. That balance will be restored when satan is put in the pit for the 1,000 yrs that Christ's perfect justice is lived out.

 

That which Can be observed is Micro evolution. The 'here and now' -- documented evidence. People mate with Our 'kind' and animals do the same in their natural environment.

Share this post


Link to post
When radiometric decay occurs, one of the byproducts is free Helium. An expectation for those who believe in long ages is that the atmosphere should have a great deal of Helium since they would expect the process of radiometric decay to have been happening for 4.5 billion years.

 

Is that a fact? Then why is there currently a worry that the helium in things like helium filled balloons is disappearing into space, and we are running out of the stuff when it is needed for more serious purposes - such as MRI scanners?

 

Interesting. (your brains are showing :))

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Topics

    • The creation of the angels

      What day do you think the angels were created? Based on Job 38:7 it seems they were created before the creation of the earth. I also wonder what day they sinned.

      in Creation Ex Nihilo

    • Gillum Implied He Didn't Know He Supported Anti-Police Manifesto. Here's The Real Story.

      On June 11, Andrew Gillum, the current Democratic Florida gubernatorial candidate and mayor of Tallahassee, joined three other candidates for the Democratic gubernatorial nomination by signing the Freedom Pledge, a two-page statement that calls for the state to divest from the police and prisons. View the full article

      in Political Conservative News

    • Trump Admin Backs Creation of New Ukrainian Orthodox Church

      The Trump administration has expressed its support for the recent decision by the Orthodox Church to create an independent church for the Ukraine, despite opposition from the Russian Church. View the full article

      in Christian Current Events

    • Antifa Burns Nazi Manifesto's Section On Racism, Preserves Remainder As Part Of Own Platform

      ARLINGTON, VA—Last night, members of the militant anti-fascist group Antifa raided the headquarters of the American Nazi Party and stole numerous books, pamphlets, brochures, and other propaganda from the vacant building. They later took the items to a bonfire in a remote area and began destroying the items one by one. They burned everything they had taken except for a Nazi party manifesto which they passed around and read with fascination. “This isn’t bad,” one member said. After reviewing the book, they ripped out the chapter on racism but decided to hold onto the rest of the book. The post Antifa Burns Nazi Manifesto's Section On Racism, Preserves Remainder As Part Of Own Platform appeared first on The Babylon Bee. View the original full article

      in Christian Satire

    • Why the New Creation Matters to Your Creativity

      Creativity has always been and will always be a tool for building paradise. God made us creative to spread the beauty of Eden to the rest of the world through our creative work. The problem started when sin got in the way. We stopped building God’s paradise and started to build our own. The issue isn’t that we’re using our creativity to create paradise. It’s that we are building the wrong one. We’re using our creativity to build a dead-end road, one that ends in our own selfish gain and ingrown purposes. God calls us to a better way. He shows us how to use our creativity to build an onramp to the King’s highway, the road to the new Jerusalem. We Need a World That Lasts When we disconnect our creativity from God’s new creation, it sends shockwaves through every part of our lives. If there is no future hope, our creativity either becomes shortsighted, or it tries to fill the void left by God’s promises on its own. When we reject God’s future, we will manipulate our creativity to make another one that we try to convince ourselves will somehow overshadow his. As a result, everything about us, including our creative work, becomes locked into this world. In an attempt to be good-natured, many of us will diligently use our creativity to try to change the world and overcome the prejudices and injustices mounting up against us. Yet notice how even this work assumes God. Where do you think your impulse for justice came from, and who do you think will execute perfect and final justice when it counts? Further, for there to be lasting change, we need a world that lasts. If there is no eternity, then why does justice matter? Let’s just eat and drink, for tomorrow we die (1 Cor. 15:32). Even as we try to sweep God and his righteousness out the front door of our lives, we smuggle in assumptions about him through the back with our attempts to make the world righteous and good through our creativity. This exposes an important truth: the justice so much of our creativity was meant to work toward is eschatological and divinely determined. Justice only matters if our future matters, and our future only matters if God directs the world to his righteous ends, overcoming evil once for all while making all things new. Not only will we try to make a future with our creativity; we will try to make creativity our future. This happens all the time. When we are so enamored with the beauty of the world, we forget that God has offered us something better. It’s like staring at a campfire you made. Sure, it’s beautiful to watch the flames dance for a time. But don’t let it keep you from looking to the night sky. God has sprinkled it with stars that produce light and flame far superior to your fire. When the beauty of the world captures us for too long, we cut ourselves off from God’s bigger world and his vision for our creativity. And when this happens, we make our lives about making beautiful things for themselves. This becomes our future. The only things worthy of our time and our lives, then, are our creative acts—things beautiful in the world’s eyes. Without a future, we settle for what’s in front of our eyes and what we produce with our hands. And when all we have are the small trinkets of our own making, we are cut off from the eternal beauty that awaits in the new heavens and new earth. Drawbacks of Futureless Creativity But our art cannot hold up the weight of our needs, assumptions, desires, and purpose. It was never meant to. When we try to replace God’s future promises with our own creativity, we end up breaking our souls. We no longer know why we create. At best, our creativity becomes self-serving. We may talk a good game in in the public square, but when we’re alone, we can’t help but feel empty and hollow. That’s when we notice that we’re not creating for God anymore. We’re creating just to keep up appearances, to assuage the critic, to fool the masses, and the keep the money or the fame or the machine going. Our creativity has begun to re-create us, and when we’re not on stage, we don’t like being around the person who is always with us in the green room. And yet we continue to climb up on the rickety pedestal. We keep pushing our agenda, all while forgetting the reason we started doing this in the first place. In the silence, we question our art, our motives, our reasons, and our identity. But we can’t stop now. Our followers wouldn’t want us to, and our “creativity” won’t let us. That’s the drawback of a futureless creativity. It helps us become who we want to be or what the world demands of us, but it sacrifices our God-given identity in the end. We play for the crowds or for our ego, but not for our God. Our Art Is Not the World’s Hope This is why the new creation is so important. God’s future promises teach us that the hope of the world is not our art. It is God dwelling with humanity in the new heaven and new earth, where tears, death, mourning, crying, and pain shall be no more (Rev. 21:1–4). This stops your compass of purpose, worth, and identity from spinning out of control. It gives a due north that you can point your creativity toward. Your creativity isn’t your future; God is. And this is a very good thing. First, it gives us a proper perspective. God alone is worthy. He created the world, created you, created your creativity, re-created you, re-created your creativity, and re-created the world. He gets first chair. Actually the only chair. And second, it means your creativity doesn’t have to hold up the world. God already does. Rest defines our experience in the new creation. Not just a quick-Sunday-nap type of rest but deep, anxiety-destroying, peace-inducing rest. And this new-creation rest has broken into this world in many ways. There is great peace knowing that your next creative piece does not determine the trajectory of the world. It never could, and you wouldn’t want it to. The hope of the new creation should fuel your creativity with God’s perspective and rest. It gives your work a proper beginning and a perfect ending. It looks back to what God started, what he re-created, and what he promises is to come. Related: Why Your Creativity Matters to Christ View the full article

      in Christian Current Events

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.