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rstrats

Is Matthew 12:40 using common idiomatic language?

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reformed baptist,
re:  "I've given up..."

 

But I haven't.  It's still possible that someone in the furture may know of examples. 

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48 minutes ago, rstrats said:

reformed baptist,
re:  "I've given up..."

 

But I haven't.  It's still possible that someone in the furture may know of examples. 

What would be the point.

Examples were presented and rejected by fiat.

So "perhaps someone will present an example that you like?" ... Maybe the Gospel of Thomas or one of the other rejected books have something you will accept since you rejected the biblical example from Esther.

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atpollard,
re:  "What would be the point." 

 

It would be responsive to the topic. 

 

 

 

re:  "Examples were presented and rejected by fiat." 

 

How do you define "fiat" as you are using it here?

 

 

 

re:  "So 'perhaps someone will present an example that you like [accept]?'" 

 

Perhaps.   

 

 

re: "... Maybe the Gospel of Thomas or one of the other rejected books have something you will accept..."

 

Maybe.

 

 

re:   "... since you rejected the biblical example from Esther." 

 

As explained above, Esther is not an example.  Nothing in the account prohibits at least a portion of 3 daytimes and at least a portion of 3 night times. 

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46 minutes ago, rstrats said:

How do you define "fiat" as you are using it here?

FIAT:  a command or act of will that creates something without or as if without further effort (Merriam-Webster)

FIAT:  An arbitrary order. (Oxford)

FIAT:  an order given by a person in authority (Cambridge)

 

Example of rejection by fiat:

52 minutes ago, rstrats said:

Esther is not an example.  Nothing in the account prohibits at least a portion of 3 daytimes and at least a portion of 3 night times. 

  1. Nothing in the account prohibits a portion of 4 days and 4 nights (the day she asked them to pray, three full nights and days of prayer, and a meeting with the king after sunset.)
  2. Nothing in the account prohibits a portion of 3 days and 3 nights (assuming that she skipped the day she asked them to pray, two full nights and three full days of prayer, and a meeting with the king before sunset on the third day.)
  3. Nothing in the account prohibits a portion of 3 days and 2 nights (the day she asked them to pray, two full nights and one full day between of prayer, and a meeting with the king before sunset on the third day.)

The simplest and most direct reading is (3) but YOU are the sole authority that counts in this exercise so YOU get to select the assumption laden (2) as the correct answer by FIAT.

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The Two Sabbaths of Passover

 

Most people believe that Y’shua (Jesus) died on Passover and arose on Sunday. However, is this what the Scriptures prove? In order to get the whole picture one must piece together the information given in the gospels, co-ordinating this picture with the information in the Old Testament describing what was going on during the Passover season.

 

We know that Y’shua celebrated the Passover in obedience to the commandments to do so given in Leviticus 23, Exodus 12 and Numbers 28:16-25. He began the events leading to His death by celebrating this event for which He instructed His disciples to prepare:

 

And the disciples went out, and came to the city, and found it just as He (Y’shua) had told them; and they prepared the Passover. Mark 14:16  

 

After eating the Passover meal (seder), Y’shua went to the Garden of Gethsemane with the disciples to pray. (Matthew 26:36-46; Mark 14:32-42; Luke 22:40-46)

 

And they came to a place named Gethsemane; and He said to His disciples, "Sit here until I have prayed." Mark 14:32  

 

After praying, Y’shua was arrested, tried and on the cross by 9 a.m. the next day.

 

And having arrested Him, they led Him away, and brought Him to the house of the high priest... Luke 22:54  

 

Now when morning had come, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Y’shua to put Him to death; 
2 and they bound Him, and led Him away, and delivered Him up to Pilate.  Matthew 27:1-2  

 

            And it was the third hour when they crucified Him. Mark 15:25  

 

As most everyone knows, Messiah died, was buried and resurrected. The traditional teaching says that Y’shua died on Friday, the weekly Sabbath, (good Friday) and arose on the following Sunday. However, Y’shua, HIMSELF, said,

 

for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40 

 

Is it possible to get three days AND three nights from Friday to Sunday? No, it is not. Therefore, from Messiah’s own words we can see that this teaching cannot be correct. Therefore, exactly what did happen?

 

Leviticus 23 gives us the important and “missing” information in the traditional teaching. Because we have not bothered to put the New Testament account into its Old Testament framework, we have misunderstood and misconstrued the events of the Passover season in which Y’shua died and was resurrected. Therefore, to understand what happened, let’s look at this missing info.

 

5In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight (*when God says a new day begins) is Yahweh's Passover. 

6 'Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to Yahweh; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 

7 'On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.

8 'But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to Yahweh. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.'" Leviticus 23:5-8 (*my commentary)

 

This passage tells us that the Passover is on the 14th and the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins the 15th; they are back-to-back. The first day (and the last day) of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is a Sabbath. This is a “special” Sabbath, also called a “high Sabbath”. Therefore, the Sabbath for which Y’shua had to be removed from the cross was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, not the weekly Sabbath. (The weekly Sabbath does play a part in Y’shua’s timeline, which we will shortly see.) Unlike the weekly Sabbath that is every Friday night to Saturday night, this special Sabbath can fall on any day of the week.

 

Are there New Testament Scriptures that give us this information about this special Sabbath? Yes, there are:

            52…this man (Joseph of Arimathea) went to Pilate and asked for the body   

of Y’shua.   

53 And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid Him in a  

tomb cut into the rock, where no one had ever lain. 

54 And it was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.  Luke 23:52-54 

 

            31 The Jews therefore, because it was the day of preparation, so that the  

bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath 

was a high day) John 19:31  

 

            42 Therefore on account of the Jewish day of preparation, because the 

tomb was nearby, they laid Y’shua there. John 19:42   

 

Passover is not a Sabbath. It is the day of preparation for the High Sabbath that is the first day of the (seven day) Feast of Unleavened Bread.¹ Y’shua died on Passover, but was removed from the cross before sunset, which began the High Sabbath, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

 

7 'On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.

 

On a Sabbath no work is done, therefore, the women could not prepare Y’shua’s body for burial. Y’shua was removed from the cross, wrapped in linen and placed in a tomb.

 

46 And Joseph bought a linen cloth, took Him down, wrapped Him in the linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. Mark 15:46

 

Because of the encroaching High Sabbath, the linen wrapping was all that time allowed to be done for Y’shua. Under the torah (law) one could not buy or sell on a Sabbath.

 

As for the peoples of the land who bring wares or any grain on the Sabbath day to sell, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or a holy day; Nehemiah 10:31  

 

Therefore, the women could not obtain the necessary items to properly anoint His body and bury Y’shua. However, once the High Sabbath was over, the women could buy what they needed for this task.

 

And when the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. Mark 16:1  

 

Since there were no food processors or machinery during the first century, this was a time consuming, laborious task. On the day after the High Sabbath, the women purchased the spices and spent the day preparing them to anoint Y’shua’s body. However, they were once again delayed, this time by the weekly Sabbath.

            55 Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed after,

and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. 

56 And they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment. 

1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared. Luke 23:55 - 24:1  

 

Thus far, Y’shua has died, been placed in a tomb as the High Sabbath of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread began. The women were forced to wait for that evening and day to pass. The next morning after the Sabbath when the shops were open, they purchased the spices and prepared them to anoint Y’shua’s body. They then had to rest for the weekly Sabbath to pass. Since there were no electric lights to enable them to work at night, they waited until morning on the first day of the week, Sunday, to go to the tomb to prepare His body. When they arrived, the tomb was empty. Does this mean that Y’shua arose on that day, or was tomb empty because He had already arisen?

To make all of these events fit, we can count backwards from the weekly Sabbath and figure out what evening Y’shua and the disciples had the Passover meal and what day He was crucified. The timeline of events would look like this:

 

Tuesday night – Passover Seder (meal), prayer in Gethsemane, arrested,

      brought before the Jews

Wednesday morning – before Pilate, on the cross by 9 a.m., dead by 3 p.m.²

Wednesday night – Y’shua in the tomb – first night, High Sabbath begins

Thursday – Y’shua in the tomb – first day, High Sabbath,

Thursday night – Y’shua in the tomb, second night, end of High Sabbath

Friday – Y’shua in the tomb, second day, spices bought & prepared

Friday night – Y’shua in the tomb, third night, weekly Sabbath begins

Saturday – Y’shua in the tomb third day, weekly Sabbath

Saturday Night – Y’shua NOT IN THE TOMB, End of weekly Sabbath

 

In order for Y’shua’s words to be fulfilled of three days AND three nights in the earth, He could not have spent a fourth night in the tomb! Therefore, sometime before sunset and the end of Saturday, Y’shua arose.

 

Would Y’shua’s resurrection on Sabbath violate torah (the “law’)? The torah instructs us to do no work on the Sabbath; could Y’shua rising from the dead be considered work?  What did Y’shua say about this?

 

If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Matthew 12:11-12

 

This passage refers to healing on the Sabbath. Rising from the dead to bring eternal life to the world would certainly be a bigger “good” to do on the Sabbath!

 

Y’shua also told us:

 

            For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” Matthew 12:8

                        (also Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5)

Thank you Jesus!  Maranatha!

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On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 8:26 AM, atpollard said:


re:  "...YOU are the sole authority that counts in this exercise so YOU get to select the assumption laden (2) as the correct answer by FIAT."

 

 

 

Can you show where the Esther account makes it impossible for at least a portion of three daytimes and at least a portion of three night times to have been involved?

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On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 7:15 AM, glf said:

 

glf,
Since you're not a  6th day of the week crucifixion advocate, you probably won't know of any examples. 

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1 hour ago, rstrats said:

 

Can you show where the Esther account makes it impossible for at least a portion of three daytimes and at least a portion of three night times to have been involved?

Yes, she called for them to start praying during the daytime and she met with the king during the daytime.  That makes it IMPOSSIBLE to have "at least a portion of three daytimes and at least a portion of three night times".  The only two options are "at least a portion of four daytimes and at least a portion of three night times" or "at least a portion of three daytimes and at least a portion of two night times".

 

The REAL question is ... Why am I required to show that it was impossible?

Can you show where the Esther account makes it impossible for at least a portion of three daytimes and two full night times to have been involved?

 

 

Edited by atpollard
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21 hours ago, atpollard said:

 

 

 

atpollard,
re:  "Yes, she called for them to start praying during the daytime..."

 

What scripture says that the fast began during the daytime?

 

 

 

re:  "Why am I required to show that it was impossible?" 

 

In order to prove that the Esther account is an example where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night could have occurred. 

 

 

 

 

re:  "Can you show where the Esther account makes it impossible for at least a portion of three daytimes and two full night times to have been involved?"

 

No. Any particular reason for asking? 
 

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2 hours ago, rstrats said:

re:  "Yes, she called for them to start praying during the daytime..."

What scripture says that the fast began during the daytime?

Esther 4:16

What scripture says that it didn't?

 

re:  "Why am I required to show that it was impossible?"

In order to prove that the Esther account is an example where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night could have occurred.

You have set a bar of "proof" impossibly high to reach.  It has been shown several examples where "a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event" and "no part of a daytime or no part of a night" WAS involved in the event if one simple accepts the words as written, but that is rejected because you can imagine an example where the writer means something other than what is written so a daytime and a nighttime "could" have been involved if we make all sorts of assumptions contrary to what is written.  I cannot PROVE that Esther even existed, can you?

 

Why are none of your conjectures required to provide any proof at all other than "it might have happened this way even though scripture describes it otherwise"?

 

re:  "Can you show where the Esther account makes it impossible for at least a portion of three daytimes and two full night times to have been involved?"

No. Any particular reason for asking?

Just pointing out the double standard and dismissal of requested evidence by FIAT.

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atpollard,
re:  "What scripture says that it didn't?" 

 

None that I know of.  But you flat out stated that the fast began during the daytime.  How do you know that to be an absolute, undeniable fact? 

 

 

 

re:  " It has been shown several examples where 'a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event' and 'no part of a daytime or no part of a night' WAS involved in the event if one simple accepts the words as written..."

 

If they have, I haven't seen them.  How about pointing out just one that does that. 

 

 

 

 

re:  " I cannot PROVE that Esther even existed, can you? "

 

Of course not. What's your point?

 

 

 

 

re:  "Why are none of your conjectures required to provide any proof..." 

 

I'm not aware of having made any conjectures that have any bearing on the OP other than there ought to be examples of that usage in order to be able to make the assertion of commonality.      What do you have in mind?
 

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On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 7:15 AM, glf said:

 

glf,

 

Since you're not a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate, you probably wouldn't know of any examples. 

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    • The Heart Language in a Globalizing World

      At the 2010 Lausanne Congress on World Evangelism, two Americans, Cindi Walsh and Noël Piper, enjoyed meeting an English-speaking Christian sister from Iraq who sat next to them in the plenary sessions. The three women also worshipped together in English until the chorus of each song, when leaders selected another language. When a chorus began in Arabic, the Iraqi woman jumped up and down and turned to the Americans exclaiming, “This is my language! This is how I worship God.” “She was more exuberant in her worship,” Cindi said. She and Noël gained a greater appreciation for the translation projects of organizations like TGC. They had observed that language is extremely personal. Choosing to speak or write in a particular language is about more than utilitarian communication. The Heart Language Personal, resonant language has traditionally been called the “language of the heart.” The Summer Institute of Linguistics (SIL) once considered it the most important language for any given person, especially in multilingual contexts. SIL broadly defines a heart language as “the most effective language for communicating deeply as well as for learning new concepts.” Prioritizing the heart language has decreased in popularity due to the rise of globalization and urbanization. In cities around the world, communication is becoming more singular as people learn languages such as English or French in order to participate in global commerce. As a result, societies are increasingly multilingual. Translation organizations like SIL must now pay attention to more than just language communities (“all the people who primarily speak or identify with a certain language”). Instead, a more inclusive approach to Bible translation acknowledges all of the languages within speech communities (“networks of people who share a common repertoire of language varieties and norms for their use”). In other words, in many urban communities around the world, people will use multiple languages for different functions (i.e. trade, education, religious practices, or family life). In a sense, globalization and urbanization are contributing to the simplification of language barriers. If communities are becoming more bilingual, the communication barrier between individuals is on the decline. At the same time, language barriers also become more complicated. If communities share a repertoire of languages, who decides which language to use in any given situation? This dilemma has further implications for heart languages in contexts like worship and education. What does all of this mean for organizations like TGC that participate in translation projects for theological famine relief? Case Study: Swahili A look at the Swahili language of East Africa shows the complexity behind speech communities. In 2011, International Outreach (TGC IO) translated Finally Alive by John Piper into Swahili and distributed five thousand copies intended for pastors and church leaders in this region. In the following years, IO Director Bill Walsh heard through several missionaries that little need remained for Swahili resources because “most people in East Africa speak English.” As a result, no further Swahili projects were planned. In 2013, Walsh attended a pastors’ conference in Nairobi, Kenya, and he happened to share a car ride with Ronald Kogo, an itinerate church planter based in this city. Though they’d never met in person, Kogo had helped translate the Piper book project and had previously emailed IO to request more Swahili resources. Walsh was able to ask Kogo about the state of the Swahili language. Kogo explained that many Kenyan and Tanzanian people are moving to cities. A lot of these transplants speak some English by necessity. Even so, very few can read English. “It’s one thing to speak a language, it’s another to learn enough to confidently read a book in a language,” he said. “At the end of the day, their first language is not English.” Kogo believes East Africa is one or two generations away from a day when everyone in urban areas is literate in English. Yet if that day comes, there may always be people who benefit more through Swahili. Diverse Challenges for a Diverse World Mark Dunker, a Tanzania-based trainer of pastors with ReachGlobal, says English is often more useful for educational purposes. “Although Swahili is the heart language for most Tanzanians, our experience is that many prefer studying in English when possible,” he said. English can be more helpful in explaining complex meanings, according to Dunker. He explained that occasionally Swahili vocabulary struggles to communicate some finer points of biblical truths. An example of this comes from a lesson Dunker taught his marriage and family class on the concept of biblical submission. No one understood the word ‘submission’ because there is no adequate Swahili translation. The closest word they found was ‘obedience,’ which is used in Swahili translations of Scripture; “wives, be obedient to your husbands” (Eph. 5:22). But the true meaning of the original New Testament word requires more nuance. Dunker’s observation highlights the fact that, despite a globalizing world, resources in many languages are necessary—including the heart languages. In the effort to combat theological famine, communicating biblical truth to the nations requires great wisdom as we seek to reach the hearts of people through the gospel. Editor’s Note: With the help of ministry and translation partners, TGC is finalizing a Swahili version of Prosperity? Seeking the True Gospel for distribution in East Africa. This resource will be available in 2019. View the full article

      in Christian Current Events

    • Trump Confirms 'Smocking Gun' Typo Was Just Rollout Of New Common Core Spelling Standards

      WASHINGTON, D.C.—President Trump confirmed Tuesday that his much-maligned typo "Smocking Gun" was actually intentional, being the first part of a rollout of new Common Core standards in spelling and vocabulary. The post Trump Confirms 'Smocking Gun' Typo Was Just Rollout Of New Common Core Spelling Standards appeared first on The Babylon Bee. View the original full article

      in Christian Satire

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