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rstrats

Is Matthew 12:40 using common idiomatic language?

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Perhaps someone new looking in might know of examples.

 

Hi rstrats,

 

Look in post #5 of "Good Wednesday" OP

 

Yours,

 

Deade

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deade,

re: "Look in post #5 of 'Good Wednesday' OP"

 

 

 

I don't see where the post shows any examples of where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. What do you have in mind?

 

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It can't be that common of an idiom if we are still questioning it after 2000 years of theologians studying the issue.

I think the 'double sabbath' makes more sense and "Good Friday" and "Easter Sunday" are just convenient for people who don't follow the OT Jewish festivals.

However, I admit my view is simple preferential conjecture.

 

Is the exact days involved really more important than the fact that a dead man came back to life and said that we could, too!

Forest vs trees stuff.

Have fun speculating.

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Hi rstats & atpollard,

 

The exact days are very important. We are in the last days and it is time to throw off all the false doctrine carried out of the RCC. God is in the process of unlocking prophecies pertinent to events about to unfold. It's all part of the Watch admonition Jesus gave us.

 

Here is the post I referred to:

 

Maybe this will answer this question: Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday. The Romans said it was Friday because of the sundown Sabbath was approaching. But it says in John 19:14 it was the preparation day (crucifixion day) which is the day before the annual Sabbath of the First Day of Unleavened Bread. Ask any Jew what the preparation day is. Three days and three nights raises Him on Saturday evening. He had already risen by early Sunday (John 20:1).

 

Jesus was talking with Mary saying he had not ascended to His Father yet: John 20:16,17: “Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

 

Later that same day He appeared to His disciples and they could touch Him. So we can say for sure the ascension was on Sunday. We are given a picture of His ascension as the wave sheath day, when the first fruits were waved before God as a tribute. This was always done on the first Sunday after Passover. [look up wave sheath day for yourself] This still does not make Sunday the Sabbath.

 

You argue the resurrection was on a Sunday, but it was actually on a Saturday evening. Christ was buried just before sundown: and 3 days/3 nights add up to a sundown resurrection. I am a Christian author/missionary that keeps the Saturday Sabbath. I am not a SDA as I don't agree with any of Ellen White's writings.

 

If your worship God through Christ, that is enough but do not judge me for keeping the true Sabbath and I won't judge you.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

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deade,

re: "Maybe this will answer this question: Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday."

 

That's an issue for a different topic.

 

 

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deade,

re: "Maybe this will answer this question: Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday."

 

That's an issue for a different topic.

 

Hi rstrats,

 

I thought this topic was about Matt. 12:40 - whether Jonah's three days were idiomatic of Jewish tradition of part days representing whole days. It is the same subject. Jesus said like Jonah, He would be 3 days/3 nights in the heart of the earth. The idiomatic days were expressed 1 day day/1 night day = 1 day. They were never expressed like Jesus did.

 

Yours, Deade

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christforums

deade,

re: "I thought this topic was about Matt. 12:40 - whether Jonah's three days were idiomatic of Jewish tradition of part days representing whole days.

 

 

 

It's not. It's actually about where no part of a daytime or no part of a night time was being counted as a daytime or a night time.

 

1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"

 

2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

 

3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.

 

4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

 

5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

 

I am merely asking anyone who thinks that it was common if they could provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred. So far none have been provided.

 

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Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently assert that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I wonder if anyone knows of any writing that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights? If it is using common idiomatic language, there ought to be examples of that usage in order to be able to make that assertion.

 

Well in Ancient Israel, the new day started when three stars were seen in the evening sky! Jews started their day the night before and not midnight like we do!

 

Also the phrase three days and three nights is an idiom- for Israelites considered any part of the day as a whole day Jesus died Friday afternoon and buried before sundown-Day one. Laid in the tomb All Saturday to sundown- Day two and rose sometime in the night and early morning of Sunday--Day three!

 

I forget what is the name but there are a few good Jewish online sources that explain this! So three days, on the third day and three days and three nights all mean the same! Jesus would have said three days and three nights and the other phrases were done by the gospel writers to their audiences which were not Jews!

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Also the phrase three days and three nights is an idiom- for Israelites considered any part of the day as a whole day

 

This has been pointed out to him several times with clear evidence to back it up.

 

This thread (in my opinion) has festered long enough. Time to bury it. :)

 

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nolidad,

re: "Jesus died Friday afternoon and buried before sundown-Day one. Laid in the tomb All Saturday to sundown- Day two and rose sometime in the night and early morning of Sunday--Day three!"

 

How do you account for the lack of a 3rd night?

 

 

 

 

 

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Faber,

 

re: "This has been pointed out to him several times with clear evidence to back it up."

 

And I agree, but that's an issue for a different topic.

 

 

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nolidad,

re: "Jesus died Friday afternoon and buried before sundown-Day one. Laid in the tomb All Saturday to sundown- Day two and rose sometime in the night and early morning of Sunday--Day three!"

 

How do you account for the lack of a 3rd night?

 

 

 

 

 

because in the Jewish mindset, any part of a day counted as a day! So if one were to be involved in an activity for any part of a day saying a day and night was correct in that day!

 

Also one needs to look at the time frame spelled out in Scriptures. Jesus ate teh Passover meal with His disciples at evening. That would have been Thursday night, which was Friday for Jews!

 

The {pharisees did not go into Pilates Court because they would have been unclean for the preparation of the passover (which was the week long feast of unleavened bread which is part of Passover) this could not have been Thursday- for the priests would h ave been busy all day with sacrificing lambs and duties involved with the passover sacrifices at the altar!

 

Then the women went to the tomb early on the first day of the week (Sunday)

 

You add all these up and you get Jesus dying at 3PM (the 9th hour) being pulled down and Buried by Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, and the HIgh priests demanding the guard and seal!

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nolidad,

re: "because in the Jewish mindset, any part of a day counted as a day! So if one were to be involved in an activity for any part of a day saying a day and night was correct in that day!"

 

 

So you're saying that it was common to say that a daytime or a night time was involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred?

 

 

 

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nolidad,

re: "because in the Jewish mindset, any part of a day counted as a day! So if one were to be involved in an activity for any part of a day saying a day and night was correct in that day!"

 

 

So you're saying that it was common to say that a daytime or a night time was involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred?

 

 

 

Well if no part of a das yor night occurred then nothing could have happened!

 

But in Jesus day according to rabbis and Jewish believers all three passages three days and three nights, 3 days and on the third day would simply be Fri-Sun. For three days are involved-Fri. Sat. Sun.

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Maybe someone new looking in who believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language may know of examples to support that explaination.

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Maybe someone new looking in who believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language may know of examples to support that explaination.

 

Maybe, but would you accept them?

 

The Esther example isn't good enough even though it is similar language!

 

You know, I am often surprised by the way people expect a whole level of evidence from others that they don't feel they need to provide for themselves!

 

Can you give examples of when 'the third day' means 'the fourth day'?

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Maybe someone new looking in who believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language may know of examples to support that explaination.

Gladly:

 

From the Jewish encyclopedia:

 

DAY (Hebrew, "yom"):

 

By: Emil G. Hirsch, Michael Friedländer

In the Bible, the season of light (Gen. i. 5), lasting "from dawn [lit. "the rising of the morning"] to the coming forth of the stars" (Neh. iv. 15, 17). The term "day" is used also to denote a period of twenty-four hours (Ex. xxi. 21). In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day. Again, a man who hears of a vow made by his wife or his daughter, and desires to cancel the vow, must do so on the same day on which he hears of it, as otherwise the protest has no effect; even if the hearing takes place a little time before night, the annulment must be done within that little time. The day is reckoned from evening to evening—i.e., night and day—except in reference to sacrifices, where daytime and the night following constitute one day (Lev. vii. 15; see Calendar). "The day" denotes: (a) Day of the Lord; (b) the Day of Atonement; © the treatise of the Mishnah that contains the laws concerning the Day of Atonement (See Yoma and Sabbath).

 

If I want to know Jewish Customs- I ask Jews!

 

that is why Jesus could die and be buried before Sunday Friday, rise before sunsup sunday and still be correct when He said three days and nights he would be in the heart of the earth! He was talking to His people in the language He and they understood!

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Maybe, but would you accept them?

 

 

Absolutely. If someone provides examples from the first century or before which actually show (i.e., that there is no way of getting around) that a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred, I will certainly accept them.

 

 

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The Esther example isn't good enough even though it is similar language!

 

 

As I've said previously, the Esther account does not preclude at least a portion of each one of three daytimes and at least a portion of each one of three night times.

 

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rstrats

 

Thanks for using the quotes feature - it makes it so much easier :RpS_thumbsup:

 

Originally posted by reformed baptist View Post

Can you give examples of when 'the third day' means 'the fourth day'?

 

 

 

No.

 

OK, thanks for the honesty - now do you see the inconsistency in that your asking for something that you not prepared to provide for yourself. If Jesus rose after 3 days, then he cannot have risen on 'the third day' - if you want me to provide examples of idiomatic usage of '3 days and 3 nights' then I want you to provide examples of idiomatic usages of 'third day' to mean 'fourth day' - fair is fair.

 

03-21-2018, 12:56 PM

 

 

 

Originally posted by reformed baptist View Post

 

Maybe, but would you accept them?

 

 

 

Absolutely. If someone provides examples from the first century or before which actually show (i.e., that there is no way of getting around) that a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred, I will certainly accept them.

 

 

But I have done - and you have rejected it based on the fact that you have found a way of getting around it - my friend, I don't mean to be rude or blunt but the truth is there is usually a way around most things. Just the other day i was talking to a JW using his own bible I got him to read psalm 102:25-27 and asked him who those verses spoke about - he said Jehovah. I then asked him to read Hebrews 1 and asked him who that speaks about - he said Jesus - so i pointed out that Heb 1:10 quotes that passage in psalm 102 - i showed him from his own bible, irrefutably, that Jesus is God - but did it make any difference? No - he ignored the evidence. I have spoken about the example in Esther and this is your response:

 

As I've said previously, the Esther account does not preclude at least a portion of each one of three daytimes and at least a portion of each one of three night times.

 

Esther asks for a fast for 3 days (day and night) and she goes before the king on the third day, assuming day 1 is the day she asks (which I think is reasonable) we have

 

day 1 - request made and fast begins

night 1 - fast continues

day 2 - fast continues

night 2 - fast continues

day 3 - fast continues and she sees the king

 

There is no time for night 3

 

The only way you can possibly get it to include 3 nights and 3 days is to take it in that order, and assume the fast had a set start time (that night) but that isn't implied in the text, the implication is that Esther instructed Mordicai to act immediately - notice that she says she and her handmaids will do the same but there is agreement of time - the strong implication is that the fast began as soon as the people were gathered. This is a good example.

 

Now, I admit, if you wont accept this sort of evidence that I incapable of reaching the standard you do require - but with all due respect my friend, I repeat that for consistencies sake it doesn't appear to be the standard of evidence your holding your own position to and truthfully I don't believe it to be a fair standard of evidence either - and the two of us simply going back and forth over this ground isn't fruitful so having said my piece I will await your response but if there is nothing further to add I suspect it's time to draw a line under this one for now :RpS_thumbsup:

 

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rstrats

 

 

 

reformed baptist,

re: "...now do you see the inconsistency in that your asking for something that you not prepared to provide for yourself."

 

No I don't. If I could have provided the answer for myself I wouldn't have started this topic in the first place. If someone tries to explain the lack of a third night - which would have to be the case with a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection - by saying that the Messiah was using "common" figure of speech/colloquial language of the period, then they would have to know of other instances of such usage in order to legitimately say that it was "common".

 

 

 

re: "The only way you can possibly get it to include 3 nights and 3 days is to take it in that order..."

 

That is correct. And nothing in the account says that it couldn't have happened that way.

 

 

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reformed baptist,

re: "...now do you see the inconsistency in that your asking for something that you not prepared to provide for yourself."

 

No I don't. If I could have provided the answer for myself I wouldn't have started this topic in the first place.

 

That is just being obtuse my friend - My point is clear and has been made several times!

 

You reject that 'third day' means third day - but you don't provide any evidence to support that anyone, anywhere has ever used 'third day' to mean 'fourth day' and yet you demand that I provide concrete evidence that meats your arbitrarily predetermined standard to demonstrate that some one might use '3 days and 3 nights' idiomatically - that is a double standard - plain and simple!

 

If someone tries to explain the lack of a third night - which would have to be the case with a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection - by saying that the Messiah was using "common" figure of speech/colloquial language of the period, then they would have to know of other instances of such usage in order to legitimately say that it was "common".

 

what would you accept as common? How much extant material do you think we have from that period that records speech?

 

re: "The only way you can possibly get it to include 3 nights and 3 days is to take it in that order..."

 

That is correct. And nothing in the account says that it couldn't have happened that way.

 

 

And here we go again - you are interpreting Esther in a way that cements your point (without exegetical support) - that is circular reasoning of the most obvious nature - and that is why I don't believe there is any point in me trying to discuss this any further with you - you are going to treat everything I say in the same way - if you can't even accept as an outside possibility that the example of Esther 4&5 might be exactly what your looking for - but are arbitrarily rejecting it - what are we doing here? What is the point of me trying to interact?

 

This is like those occasions when the Muslim says, 'if you want me to believe that Jesus is God, show me where Jesus uses the words, 'I am God' - you will only accept examples (you want it to be common) of people using thee exact same phrase as Jesus used - and for us to have an extant record of the actual timescales involved (despite the fact no one had a watch) - you looking for something that isn't there - and when you get something that should be close enough to be considered, you immediately rule it out based on evidence at all.

 

It becomes a self refuting argument my friend and one that I am going to leave where it is because my time is precious to me today :RpS_wink:

 

 

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      in Political Conservative News

    • Language: English

      A Guatemalan family is suing Universal Orlando Resort following the death of the family's 38-year-old father, calling the park negligent for not providing ride warning signs in Spanish.  In 2016, Jose Calderon Arana had a fatal heart attack after going on "Skull Island: Reign of Kong." He had previous heart problems and didn't speak English, according to the wrongful death lawsuit the family filed this month.    Calderon Arana, who ran a farming operation owned by his family, didn’t feel well after going on the Skull Island ride — his wife thought he had an upset stomach, according to the lawsuit.  He took a break on a bench while his wife and son went another ride. He had collapsed by the time they came back and was taken to a hospital where he later died, said the lawsuit, which also claims there was a delay in rendering aid to Calderon Arana after he collapsed.  A sign at the entrance of the ride says in English, "Warning! This ride is an expedition through the rough terrain of King Kong’s natural habitat. The movement of the truck is dynamic with sudden accelerations, dramatic tilting and jarring actions." It warns that people with heart conditions or abnormal blood pressure, back or neck conditions, and expectant mothers shouldn’t go on the ride.    The family’s personal injury attorney, Lou Pendas, said it’s not unreasonable to have ride warning signs in English, Spanish and French so visitors can make informed decisions about whether they should go on the ride.  Regarding precedent, Pendas told USA TODAY that the argument isn't whether there have been other cases where juries have ruled or concluded whether it's reasonable to include disclosures in multiple languages, but about what is reasonable and what is prudent.   Although it’s difficult to gauge what percentage of visitors to central Florida’s theme parks don’t speak English, local tourism figures show that 6.1 million of metro  Orlando’s 72 million visitors in 2017 came from outside the United States. "This isn’t a crazy request or expectation. It’s actually quite basic in this day and age," Pendas said . "You are asking for international travelers. This is a mecca for tourism. This is a very basic thing that should be thought of for the safety of patrons." https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2018/12/30/family-sues-universal-orlando-resort-over-english-only-warning-signs/2444935002/      I didn't post the entire article, but pieces of it. The full article can be found at the link above.    I am sorry that this gentleman died.     I think in this day and age (and in particular in the United States) people ought to learn at least basic English skills. If (in the US) we are to cater to certain other languages where does it end (or does it end?) - Spanish, Italian, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, German, Russian, Arabic, etc., etc. What is to stop someone whose native language isn't written from suing? If we cater to a few languages then won't other people who speak differently feel discriminated against?    With all the international travel in English, television shows in English, books, newspapers, movies and even the internet you are now using there is simply no excuse not to learn basic English. It is the international language.    

      in Political Conservative News

    • The Heart Language in a Globalizing World

      At the 2010 Lausanne Congress on World Evangelism, two Americans, Cindi Walsh and Noël Piper, enjoyed meeting an English-speaking Christian sister from Iraq who sat next to them in the plenary sessions. The three women also worshipped together in English until the chorus of each song, when leaders selected another language. When a chorus began in Arabic, the Iraqi woman jumped up and down and turned to the Americans exclaiming, “This is my language! This is how I worship God.” “She was more exuberant in her worship,” Cindi said. She and Noël gained a greater appreciation for the translation projects of organizations like TGC. They had observed that language is extremely personal. Choosing to speak or write in a particular language is about more than utilitarian communication. The Heart Language Personal, resonant language has traditionally been called the “language of the heart.” The Summer Institute of Linguistics (SIL) once considered it the most important language for any given person, especially in multilingual contexts. SIL broadly defines a heart language as “the most effective language for communicating deeply as well as for learning new concepts.” Prioritizing the heart language has decreased in popularity due to the rise of globalization and urbanization. In cities around the world, communication is becoming more singular as people learn languages such as English or French in order to participate in global commerce. As a result, societies are increasingly multilingual. Translation organizations like SIL must now pay attention to more than just language communities (“all the people who primarily speak or identify with a certain language”). Instead, a more inclusive approach to Bible translation acknowledges all of the languages within speech communities (“networks of people who share a common repertoire of language varieties and norms for their use”). In other words, in many urban communities around the world, people will use multiple languages for different functions (i.e. trade, education, religious practices, or family life). In a sense, globalization and urbanization are contributing to the simplification of language barriers. If communities are becoming more bilingual, the communication barrier between individuals is on the decline. At the same time, language barriers also become more complicated. If communities share a repertoire of languages, who decides which language to use in any given situation? This dilemma has further implications for heart languages in contexts like worship and education. What does all of this mean for organizations like TGC that participate in translation projects for theological famine relief? Case Study: Swahili A look at the Swahili language of East Africa shows the complexity behind speech communities. In 2011, International Outreach (TGC IO) translated Finally Alive by John Piper into Swahili and distributed five thousand copies intended for pastors and church leaders in this region. In the following years, IO Director Bill Walsh heard through several missionaries that little need remained for Swahili resources because “most people in East Africa speak English.” As a result, no further Swahili projects were planned. In 2013, Walsh attended a pastors’ conference in Nairobi, Kenya, and he happened to share a car ride with Ronald Kogo, an itinerate church planter based in this city. Though they’d never met in person, Kogo had helped translate the Piper book project and had previously emailed IO to request more Swahili resources. Walsh was able to ask Kogo about the state of the Swahili language. Kogo explained that many Kenyan and Tanzanian people are moving to cities. A lot of these transplants speak some English by necessity. Even so, very few can read English. “It’s one thing to speak a language, it’s another to learn enough to confidently read a book in a language,” he said. “At the end of the day, their first language is not English.” Kogo believes East Africa is one or two generations away from a day when everyone in urban areas is literate in English. Yet if that day comes, there may always be people who benefit more through Swahili. Diverse Challenges for a Diverse World Mark Dunker, a Tanzania-based trainer of pastors with ReachGlobal, says English is often more useful for educational purposes. “Although Swahili is the heart language for most Tanzanians, our experience is that many prefer studying in English when possible,” he said. English can be more helpful in explaining complex meanings, according to Dunker. He explained that occasionally Swahili vocabulary struggles to communicate some finer points of biblical truths. An example of this comes from a lesson Dunker taught his marriage and family class on the concept of biblical submission. No one understood the word ‘submission’ because there is no adequate Swahili translation. The closest word they found was ‘obedience,’ which is used in Swahili translations of Scripture; “wives, be obedient to your husbands” (Eph. 5:22). But the true meaning of the original New Testament word requires more nuance. Dunker’s observation highlights the fact that, despite a globalizing world, resources in many languages are necessary—including the heart languages. In the effort to combat theological famine, communicating biblical truth to the nations requires great wisdom as we seek to reach the hearts of people through the gospel. Editor’s Note: With the help of ministry and translation partners, TGC is finalizing a Swahili version of Prosperity? Seeking the True Gospel for distribution in East Africa. This resource will be available in 2019. View the full article

      in Christian Current Events

    • Trump Confirms 'Smocking Gun' Typo Was Just Rollout Of New Common Core Spelling Standards

      WASHINGTON, D.C.—President Trump confirmed Tuesday that his much-maligned typo "Smocking Gun" was actually intentional, being the first part of a rollout of new Common Core standards in spelling and vocabulary. The post Trump Confirms 'Smocking Gun' Typo Was Just Rollout Of New Common Core Spelling Standards appeared first on The Babylon Bee. View the original full article

      in Christian Satire

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