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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
FireHeart

About fighting and self defense

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I have to get my health care from the VA. The VA I go to is in a large city where crime id high. There has been a murder in the VA in the last four years. The city has a very high crime rate, people have been held up by thugs with guns. This is a serious concern for the elderly. MY wife an I now carry a gun in the car for protection, just in case of a bad situation. We travel a long distance, and often we leave the VA late at night, which leaves us even more venerable to being a victim of crime.

 

I would do everything possible to avoid using a weapon, I believe it is my responsibility to protect my wife and property. As a christian I take very seriously the consequences of protecting my wife and my life. I pray I will never be in a situation where I will ever have to show my intentions of protecting my wife and me, but should that situation arise I will do my duty. God expects me to be the protector of my wife and our property.

 

 

Justme.

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Having said that -- I'd never intentionally kill another person even if he's breaking into my house -- maybe trying to attack me -- I'd try to find Some way of getting away / getting them out -- short of killing them. Because I know where I'm spending eternity, but I don't want inadvertently send another person into eternal hell.

 

You are a very thoughtful person, @Sue D.. This is something I hadn't even given a thought. Color me embarrassed.

 

Still, that person's actions are their own choice, so I don't really think you could be blamed for "sending them to hell." I wouldn't want that feeling either though. I also don't ever want to be in a position where I have to consider killing another person. I pray that never happens.

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I wish more people taught preventative measures to such situations rather than what to do after the situation has already happened. I have been making a conscious effort to try and only focus on good things in my life and do my best to ignore all the terrible things and injustices going on in the world. I even threw away the mace I used to carry in my bag because every time I saw it I thought of violence and the negative things that could happen to me. Now it's been years and nothing like that ever happens to me any more. As soon as I stopped being ready for fights all the time, all the angry people and criminals just don't exist any more. That's my experience anyway.

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As soon as I stopped being ready for fights all the time, all the angry people and criminals just don't exist any more. That's my experience anyway.

I just hope that continues to be your experience.

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I wish more people taught preventative measures to such situations rather than what to do after the situation has already happened. I have been making a conscious effort to try and only focus on good things in my life and do my best to ignore all the terrible things and injustices going on in the world. I even threw away the mace I used to carry in my bag because every time I saw it I thought of violence and the negative things that could happen to me. Now it's been years and nothing like that ever happens to me any more. As soon as I stopped being ready for fights all the time, all the angry people and criminals just don't exist any more. That's my experience anyway.

 

I've never actually seen what a can of mace looks like. But with My luck -- in the process of trying to spray an attacker -- I'd probably end up spraying myself. I Have heard that mace is Nasty stuff and no one Wants to get sprayed with it. So -- I'd probably be farther ahead by thrashing out with the can and trying to injure them That way.

 

My daughter used to carry a knife with her for protection -- I'd never use one. Stabbing can be a bloody mess. And ya have to get up close and personal with a knife -- no thanks.

 

 

Preventative measures -- Yes. Be with someone when possible. Be in well-lite areas. If you're working a night shift / late shift, park near a lighted area. Have someone go to your car with you. If you see someone hanging around your vehicle Don't go any closer. Go back / call the police. Have a small flashlight in your hand it can be used to shine in their eyes and blind them long enough to get away. Talk to the person in a Loud voice to call attention to anyone close by. Know how to 'reverse' an attack. If /when possible.

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Well, @Jean positive thinking is a good thing, but it only goes so far. Bad things can and do still happen, even to those who do their best to maintain a positive attitude. Even people who are not "looking for trouble" sometimes have bad things happen to them. Being prepared for dangerous situations is not inviting trouble. Preparedness is intended to prevent problems, not cause them.

 

The preventative measures listed below are a good start. Not putting yourself into dangerous situations, being aware of your surroundings, locking your doors at home, etc. are all good things. If carrying a defense weapon makes you uncomfortable, that's your choice.

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Well, @Jean positive thinking is a good thing, but it only goes so far. Bad things can and do still happen, even to those who do their best to maintain a positive attitude. Even people who are not "looking for trouble" sometimes have bad things happen to them. Being prepared for dangerous situations is not inviting trouble. Preparedness is intended to prevent problems, not cause them.

 

The preventative measures listed below are a good start. Not putting yourself into dangerous situations, being aware of your surroundings, locking your doors at home, etc. are all good things. If carrying a defense weapon makes you uncomfortable, that's your choice.

 

That in itself is a belief - and whatever belief you construct becomes true for your life. My belief is that only good things happen to me and so that has become my experience.

 

Your belief is that 'Positive thinking will only take you so far, and bad things can and do still happen' and GUESS WHAT? That becomes your experience!

 

Anyway, to each their own. You argue for your truth and I argue for mine. I just hope that you will consider arguing for a truth that you actually want to live instead of one that you don't want to experience in your life.

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I hate violence, war, and its a difficult choice to be pre proactive in being ready for an attack that may never happen. The same is true for learning how To do life saving First Aid measures just in case you happen to be where First Aid might be needed. Maybe you will never be in a situation where your learned First Aid could save some ones life, but maybe you might. So do you just assume you won't? Most people can't even help where a person has stopped breathing.

 

My wife and happened to be the only ones around when a young high school girl called us and said a man have just dropped to the ground and stopped breathing. We ran to him and started CPR. We did this for 45 minuets until the LIFE FLIGHT crew came and took over. We saved this mans life, it was very arduous work to do CPR for 45 minuets we were so worn out and exhausted, but we kept going until help arrived.

 

What if we had said I won't take those CPR classes? Now I ask with the violent world we live in should we not be prepared to possibly protect someone else, or yourself? IMO I say we oue it to others and or families to be prepared, hopefully never having to use a weapon ;ole mace or a base ball bat, or a gun. But I believe I have a Biblical understanding to be a protector to my wife and family and those who just maybe in a life threatening situation.

 

 

Justme

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My belief is that only good things happen to me and so that has become my experience.

Not everyone who believed that has had the same experience.

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We saved this mans life, it was very arduous work to do CPR for 45 minuets we were so worn out and exhausted, but we kept going until help arrived.

 

What if we had said I won't take those CPR classes?

 

I think that if you had decided not to take those CPR classes, either you wouldn't have been in that place when the man's life was in danger or there would have been someone else there who would have taken charge of the situation. I think that it was you and your partner who did that because you were ready for it - my point being: things like that will happen around you because you expect and are ready for them.

 

Do you take self-defense classes because you might have to protect your family against muggers?

Do you learn how to be a fireman because you might have to rescue your family in a fire?

Do you dig an underground bunker under your house because you might have to .... (You get the point.)

 

It never ends and you can't be ready for all of it. There might always be a situation that comes up that you aren't prepared for.

 

That is going about things in a really hard and roundabout way - looking for security in all the wrong places. But with a little faith in the well-being that continually flows to you and the people you love and care about, you never have to think about all those things again. You only have to focus your faith in one area and that takes care of everything else.

 

But then again that is just my opinion, I know it's only one opinion and not necessarily the right one. I respect your views as well. Hope you have a great day!

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Not everyone who believed that has had the same experience.

 

That is not true.

 

Everyone who TRULY believes that has had the same experience. There are implicit and explicit beliefs. What you tell everyone you believe and what you really believe deep down inside are usually two different things but the proof is in the experience of those people. If someone really believed in something, it would become their experience - that is one of the basic laws of this universe.

 

I'm no expert on the bible, and maybe others here can help out, but I think what I'm trying to explain here is something similar to what the guy experienced who was walking on the water because he believed in Jesus then he lost faith and he fell in... or something like that? I don't know the exact verse, but I hope you get my point. Let life prove this to you. If you totally believe in something, it becomes true for you - but if you falter in your belief then you start to experience things that will cause you to say things like "Not everyone who believed that has had the same experience..."

 

Again, just my humble opinion...

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I don't know the exact verse, but I hope you get my point.

And in the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” and they cried out in fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”

 

And Peter answered him, “Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.” He said, “Come.” So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, “Lord, save me.” Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. (Matthew 14:25-32)

 

This doesn't prove your point at all. Peter had faith in Jesus and so when Jesus told him to come he was able to walk on water. What happened was that he got distracted by looking at the storm and when he took his attention off of Jesus he began to sink.

 

There are many who believe they will be saved and go to Heaven when they die. Here is what Jesus said about them.

 

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

You can believe that everything is going well in your life and that belief can be utterly wrong. I pray that God will help you to see this before it is too late.

 

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As a Christian its my duty to be prepared to help people in need. I can not assume that a fireman will always be near to put a fire. I can not rely on anyone else to do for me what I am able to do for myself. I was a Boy Scout and their motto is "BE PREPARED" This should also be incorporated into every Christians life. I have been able to serve other's by this in ways that God has blessed. How sad it is to hear of people just standing about doing nothing when there is an emergency.

 

No I do not accept that is a person dies because CPR was not done because no one knew CPR that is was Gods will, it may be is permissive will but not His direct perfect will. If some one attempts to rob us whild traveling I will not just submit, because most men to do such things think little of making sure you don't talk. I will do everything possible to protect my family and me form evil. remember satan wants to kill you, I have much to do that also involves service to Christ. As long as I have breath that is what God wants me to do.

 

One think I fail to understand is girly men who are weaklings who would rather hide behind something instead of when to moment calls for action they hide. I believe is war came to our shores today there very small numbers of men who would step up as back in WW II. Our society has now changed to a bunch of overweight young boys who play video games and would rather play games with other boys; instead of getting a job and getting a car and dating a real Christian young lady, saving up for a home and finding a Christian wife. This is not unusual to see "boys" living with the parents clear up to their age of thirty> This is crazy that parents allow this to happen.

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That is not true.

 

Everyone who TRULY believes that has had the same experience. There are implicit and explicit beliefs. What you tell everyone you believe and what you really believe deep down inside are usually two different things but the proof is in the experience of those people. If someone really believed in something, it would become their experience - that is one of the basic laws of this universe.

 

I'm no expert on the bible, and maybe others here can help out, but I think what I'm trying to explain here is something similar to what the guy experienced who was walking on the water because he believed in Jesus then he lost faith and he fell in... or something like that? I don't know the exact verse, but I hope you get my point. Let life prove this to you. If you totally believe in something, it becomes true for you - but if you falter in your belief then you start to experience things that will cause you to say things like "Not everyone who believed that has had the same experience..."

 

Again, just my humble opinion...

 

This is genuine WORD OF FAITH teaching. Biblical truth is solid and what is true for me is also truth for us all if its based on Scripture.

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@Jean I understand that this is what you believe, but I don't know where you get that in the Bible. The Bible tells us that we will have trials and tribulations. We are told that things won't be perfect, but that God will help us.

 

John 16:33

 

I don't know of any Biblical teaching that says positive thinking can just will away all problems or negative situations. Do you honestly believe that there has not and will not ever be a single negative thing in your life, because you think positively? That seems to me like you think you are making something happen (or not happen) rather than God being in control. I just don't know how to reconcile that.

[h=1][/h]

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I think that Peter's act could also be viewed as an act of aggression rather than an act of defense.

Hey David, welcome to the forum, glad you are getting around.

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On 9/13/2015 at 1:23 PM, FireHeart said:

Sorry I haven't been online in a long time life has been hectic. I was wondering what we should make about the subject of fighting. Say that your being attacked by an angry person and he is swinging punches and using an iron bar for a weapon. Now what is the biblical or Christian thing to do? in the old testament God aided his ppl in war david even fought goliath but in the new testament Jesus said to Peter turn the other cheek. So do I turn the other cheek or fight back in self defense?

Most Christians struggle with this, I did years ago. 

God's instruction to His people in the OT (the Hebrews) was different from His instruction to His people today (Christians).  Jesus showed and taught us how to live; whereas in the OT God used many prophets to instruct His people.  God's instructions in the OT are not applicable to how He wants us to live.  Jesus is the messenger from God for His people.  It is very clear; yet EXTREMELY hard to accept God's teaching on how we are expected to treat others.  American culture, even "Christian" culture does not easily  accept absolute love towards everyone including those harming us or others (our enemies).  God gives us NO justification to kill or harm anyone; EVER.  Again this is not accepted by most Christians yet there are so many examples and scriptures that validate and prove this principle that it is not practical to post them here.  That being said I can post a lengthy argument that addresses this very matter, and it is by no means a personal argument.  It is completely scriptural based.  This was hard for me to accept some 15 years ago and since then this topic has been extremely close to my heart because the vast majority of Christians do not see the principles of Jesus as it relates to love and retaliation.  I want so badly for people to believe the truth.  It is so easy for all of us, even me, to try and justify God's teachings for us, to fit our society or our own desires.  We have to let God's Word speak for Itself and we must understand it without prejudice.

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You would allow a loved one to be harmed in some way? And do nothing physical to stop such action? 

1Ti_5:8  But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. 
 

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3 hours ago, CompleteAgape said:

Again this is not accepted by most Christians yet there are so many examples and scriptures that validate and prove this principle that it is not practical to post them here.  That being said I can post a lengthy argument that addresses this very matter, and it is by no means a personal argument.  It is completely scriptural based.

I am Christian and I believe in self defense. Go ahead and get unpractical, post you examples and scriptural validations. I for one would like to see and discuss them.

 

7055.gif

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1 minute ago, deade said:

I am Christian and I believe in self defense. Go ahead and get unpractical, post you examples and scriptural validations. I for one would like to see and discuss them.

 

7055.gif

I'll be happy to post.  It will be a few days before I can as my bible study documents are on my old computer at home and I am out of town with a new laptop & I haven't transferred my files to this new computer.  Hopefully by the middle of next week.  Thanks.

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5 hours ago, Becky said:

You would allow a loved one to be harmed in some way? And do nothing physical to stop such action? 

1Ti_5:8  But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. 

No I wouldn't. The sixth commandment, "You shall not murder" (negative sense) has a positive sense.

 

Westminster Confession of Faith:

Q. 68. What is required in the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment requireth all lawful endeavors to preserve our own life, and the life of others.

  • Ephesians 5:28-29. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church.

The principal in Ephesians applies to our family. We are not only obligated to preserve our own life but also the life others. 

 

When a person murders (Euthanasia, genocide, terrorist acts, suicide) themselves or another they not only take away the ability to worship God but they take upon the role of God which not only gives but takes life.

 

Murder is evil and God ordains Government to not only combat evil but actively seek it out. Government has the ordained right and responsibility to wield the sword against evil Romans 13. The role of Government is different than the Christian individual's duty in Romans 12:19.

 

In John 18:22-23 when an officer physically struck Jesus He did not turn the cheek or refrain from appealing to the court about the injustice. Having said that Romans 12 and 13 are consistent with Jesus' actions.

 

God bless,

William

 

 

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I cannot see a time when God would cause one of His own Elect and Chosen people to under go physical harm for no reason . Remember, God rules in the entire life of all of His people. And with that comes certain promises that place certain restrictions that He will not allow. Not while we are under the constant watch of Guardian Angles . God does test us for the reason of trying our faith. But fighting without provocation is usually not one of them . If we cannot observe God's commands in " Loving and forgiving " our adversaries that may not agree with us and we incite them by our caviling then God is out of the picture and we are left open to receiving what we have brought upon ourselves. Example:  If I am driving in traffic and observe another vehicle driving too close to my vehicle and I let out with a few foul insulting words , I've left myself open to them doing the same to me if not more that may result in a fight. This could have been avoided if I would have just kept my mouth shut and continued with my driving. That way I avoid him and please God at the same time.

Jack Webb : " Just the facts Mam,,, just the facts."  :-)

Louis Duvall

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12 hours ago, CompleteAgape said:

I'll be happy to post.  It will be a few days before I can as my bible study documents are on my old computer at home and I am out of town with a new laptop & I haven't transferred my files to this new computer.  Hopefully by the middle of next week.  Thanks.

Would you do nothing physical to stop a person on the street, your block, from beating an old person, a child etc? 

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