Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Christian and Theologically Protestant? Or, sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Fenced Community

Christforums is a Protestant Christian forum, open to Bible-believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene- derived Christian Church. We do not solicit cultists of any kind, including Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Eastern Lightning, Falun Gong, Unification Church, Aum Shinrikyo, Christian Scientists or any other non-Nicene, non-Biblical heresy.
Register now

Christian Fellowship

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Living Stone

We Christians have two natures one utterly corrupt the other totally divine

Recommended Posts

We Christians have two natures one utterly corrupt the other totally divine

 

Eph 4:22-24 (Written to Christians) That you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man (human nature) which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts… and that you put on the new man (divine nature) which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

 

What the old man, human nature really looks like,

 

The truth about the characteristics of my human nature, this is what the Bible refers to as my flesh, and this was the nature I lived in until I was born again. This nature is inherently selfish, self absorbed, self promoting and self pitying. It’s most dominant characteristic is pride, which man defines as boastful but which God broadens to mean a rebellious independence from Him. This nature secretly envies, covets and lusts after what others have. It lives entirely in the material visible realm, living by faith in God is foolishness. It makes all it’s choices and decisions by physical senses, human intellect and reasoning abilities, therefore it can only be content when all its circumstances are favorable. It falsely assumes that the accumulation of much stuff will result in happiness. Since these desires are seldom achieved it is prone to constant worry and anxiety over the potential lack of things. Even when they are achieved it is prone to worry and anxiety over the loss of those things.

This nature, since it can’t find contentment within itself, is touchy and irritable about many trivial things; it is very easily angered and offended by others, and virtually incapable of truly forgiving them. It will bear grudges for a lifetime. It struggles to keep its basic animal wants in check and they often become compulsive or addictive. It tends to be lazy unless motivated by gain or glory, it is deceitful and manipulative. Because its core nature is so rotten it becomes a master at concealing and camouflaging itself with all manner of outward false airs and graces, that mask its true inner motives. If you ask me did God make me with this horrible nature? The answer is no. Where then did I get it? I got it from my parents who in turn ultimately got it from Adam and Eve. And they in turn got it from Satan when they believed his words – that’s how his nature got into them – instead of believing God’s words to them, so that His divine nature could have remained in them. We all, if we’re honest would agree that even if these characteristics don’t always manifest themselves outwardly, they are alive and well in our thoughts,

 

Eph 2:2-3 In which you once walked according to the course of this world, NKJV/AMP according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God]. Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh, our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature, obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind. We were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells…

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me…

Jer 13:23 Neither are you able to do good—you who are accustomed to doing evil.

 

As a Christian I will live in and continue to be controlled by this evil human nature, unless:

 

(1) I consciously and very deliberately choose to live in, that is, for my will continually to be controlled by, my new nature. This nature is my spirit or heart, and it was created in Christ the moment that I was born again. However to live in this new divine nature requires that I remain in continuous submission to God’s Holy Spirit, as He directs all of my steps.

 

Eze 36:26-28 I will give you a new heart…put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, (God) responsive heart…I will put my (Holy) Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes (words), and you keep my judgments (words), and do them. NKJV

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if…the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Acts 5:32 …The Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.

Gal 5:16 So I say, walk in (every step directed by) the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

 

(2) I consciously and very deliberately allow God to grow my new nature with more of that nature, by daily feeding me more of His words, by His Spirit, which words are that nature. However for this to happen I must continue to live in my new nature and to fully believe with that nature, my spiritual heart, the words that God personally brings to me each day. The genuineness of my belief will always be evidenced by my own words and actions being consistent with those words of God. A mere mental acknowledging or memorizing of His words keeps their life from my heart and makes me falsely assume that I know them.

 

Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them (believe them in my heart), and your words became to me a joy and the delight of my heart… ESV

2 Cor 4:16 …The inward man is being renewed day by day (or God intends it to be).

Jam 1:21 …Receive with meekness the implanted word (from God), which is able to save your souls (your will from being captive to your flesh and so to sin).

2 Pet 1:4 …There are given us exceedingly great and precious promises (God’s words), that by these you may be partakers of the divine nature…

 

Unless I choose to do both (1) and (2) above I will remain, that is, my will or soul will remain, under the continuing dominance of my corrupt human nature. This is what the Bible refers to as a Christian who is carnal, born of the Spirit but has returned to his flesh,

 

2 Pet 2:22 But it has happened to them…“A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

 

What our inward man, new divine nature looks like,

 

If I do consciously and very deliberately choose to do (1) and (2) above I will be living in my new and ever growing divine nature, in which Jesus Christ, by His Spirit and by His words, ever increasingly lives. Let me share with you what this new nature is like:

 

It is always forgiving just as it is forgiven; it is loving, but with a purer divine love rather than a highly conditional and often impure human love. It is increasingly patient and considerate of others and constantly thinks about their spiritual and eternal welfare. It is humble, in the sense of knowing its total dependence on God, therefore it isn’t envious of what others have, even what they have spiritually; instead it is charitable without any need to be given credit. It is not easily angered but rather seeks peace as it keeps getting stronger in faith toward God and bolder in its witness of Jesus Christ to others. Because it trusts God it is free from worry, it always wants to please God so it doesn’t sin. It is immensely joyful often for no apparent visible reason. This nature is “supernatural” it is the very nature of Christ,

 

Col 1:27 …God willed to make known…this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

John 15:7-8 (Jesus) If you abide (live) in Me, and My words abide (live) in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

1Cor 15:49 …just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the Heavenly Man (Jesus Christ). KJV

 

To live permanently in my new nature requires my becoming dead to my human nature,

 

If I consciously and very deliberately choose to do (1) and (2) above then the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, will guide me to certain specific truths in God’s word. Truths that tell me Christ, by dying to His flesh on the cross, has already provided a way for me to die, in Him, to my flesh. As with the initial gospel truths, this deeper truth of the gospel simply needs to be revealed to my inquiring heart, and then just believed, so as to become mine,

 

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Rom 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon (believe) yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Then in order to stay dead to my corrupt human nature I simply need to continue to believe, each day, that I am dead, in Christ, to my flesh. This is taking up my cross daily,

 

Luke 9:23 Then He (Jesus) said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me”.

 

My human nature will not want me, that is, for my will, to be dead to its sinful influence; nor will the devil; and nor will unconverted people and fleshly Christians around me. But my love for and gratitude to God, my knowledge of just how evil my human nature is, and the powerful growing nature of Christ in me, will both motivate and easily enable me to overcome my enemies and to be made conformable to Christ’s death - which was for me,

 

Phil 3:10 That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

Gal 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh…

 

These two natures of ours, one evil and one good, are in total conflict with each other. The conflict ends when we choose to die to our evil human nature and live with our will under the continuous influence of Christ’s nature within our hearts. This is what it means to be a disciple of Christ, now we will bear much fruit, through our words, into the lives of others. And our heavenly Father will be glorified and our eternity will be secure,

 

Gal 5:17 The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, NIV

2 Pet 1:8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Pet 1:10-11 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

Thank you Father, You keep us, You water us every moment, so nothing harms us, and all this by faith!

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
1 hour ago, Living Stone said:

(1) I consciously and very deliberately choose to live in, that is, for my will continually to be controlled by, my new nature.

Hi Living Stone,

 

Are you suggesting that God the Holy Spirit cannot regenerate you or influence you thereby controlling you unless you yourself choose or allow Him to do so first?

 

I'm sure, if you're like me your mind is now thinking about the theological implications. I mean we know that God the Holy Spirit can come upon even unbelievers and use them for His purpose (Joseph's brothers Genesis 50:20, and even Pharaoh Exodus 9:12). So, are you suggesting that God cannot change a man's heart or turn them from an enemy to a follower or one like David having a heart after God? I mean you must believe that because you quoted Ezekiel 36:25-27!

 

A related question, does regeneration precede faith or does faith precede regeneration?

 

1 hour ago, Living Stone said:

(2) I consciously and very deliberately allow God to grow my new nature with more of that nature, by daily feeding me more of His words, by His Spirit, which words are that nature. However for this to happen I must continue to live in my new nature and to fully believe with that nature, my spiritual heart, the words that God personally brings to me each day. The genuineness of my belief will always be evidenced by my own words and actions being consistent with those words of God. A mere mental acknowledging or memorizing of His words keeps their life from my heart and makes me falsely assume that I know them.

 

Looks like you answered the question. Your statement is bolded. What do you mean by "allow" God? Do you think God could not violate your sinful nature when you were an enemy of God? If so, I couldn't disagree more. You see the natural man or unregenerate man's will is enslaved to sin and wants nothing of God (as we were all once).

 

Will/Choosing (Enslaved):

  1. John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin."
  2. 2 Peter 2:19 - They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
  3. Titus 3:3 - For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
  4. Galatians 4:8-9 - Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
  5. Romans 6:6,16,17,19,20 - We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey...? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed... For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
  6. Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
  7. 2 Timothy 2:25-26 - God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

The natural man wants nothing to do with God unless God intervenes in the life of the unregenerate and regenerates man first Ephesians 2:5. Man cannot change himself even by choosing or willing himself to God. Matter of fact Scripture says that this is impossible John 3; 6:44. Consider how the natural man cannot do good as if we have a neutral disposition but how the natural man's will is in bondage to sin (Original Sin).

 

Can men change themselves or still do good when they want to?:

  1. Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.
  2. 1 Samuel 24:13 - "As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes wickedness.'"
  3. Matthew 7:18 - "A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit." (c.f. Luke 6:43)
  4. Matthew 12:34-35 - "How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil."
  5. Romans 8:7 - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
  6. Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from youth.
  7. Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Lastly, you may be interested in a thread I began here:

 

God bless,

William

 

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
46 minutes ago, Living Stone said:

If you ask me did God make me with this horrible nature? The answer is no. Where then did I get it? I got it from my parents who in turn ultimately got it from Adam and Eve. And they in turn got it from Satan when they believed his words – that’s how his nature got into them – instead of believing God’s words to them, so that His divine nature could have remained in them. We all, if we’re honest would agree that even if these characteristics don’t always manifest themselves outwardly, they are alive and well in our thoughts

 

Hi again, Living Stone,

 

Just dropping something in your thread that maybe you'll be interested in. I love theology and usually enjoy (depending on the company) talking about it.

 

Are you familiar with the theological term "Federal Headship"? In context the terms are often used to suggest that Adam "was" our federal head as the 2nd Adam or Christ "is" our federal head. That is, Adam's guilt was imputed us just as Christ's righteousness is imputed believers.

 

In the latter half of Romans 5, Paul teaches that the entire human race is summarized in the two Adams. The first Adam was the federal head of the race under the covenant of works; the second Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ, is the federal head of all believers under the covenant of grace. Thus, as the sin of Adam was legally and effectively our sin, so the obedience of Christ is legally and effectively the righteousness of all believers. The federal relationship in which Adam stood to the race was the ground of the imputation of his guilt to them and the judicial cause of their condemnation. And the law that condemned them could not justify them unless an adequate reparation should be made for the wrong done, a reparation they were incapable of making because of the corruption they inherited from Adam as their natural and federal head. To provide their salvation, the needed reparation had to be made by another who was not of federal connection with Adam and therefore was free from the imputation of his guilt. Federal theology represents these requirements as being met in Christ, the second Adam, in whom a new race begins. God had entered into covenant with him, promising him the salvation of all believers as the reward of his obedience. But the obedience required of him as the federal head of his people was more than the mere equivalent of that required of Adam. His representative obedience must include a penal death. And thus his resurrection victory is also the victory of the new humanity that has its source in him. -- (Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, s.v. “Federal Theology.”)

 

God bless,

William

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
2 hours ago, Living Stone said:

We Christians have two natures one utterly corrupt the other totally divine

 

Eph 4:22-24 (Written to Christians) That you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man (human nature) which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts… and that you put on the new man (divine nature) which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

The Scriptures NEVER claims we have or ever had a divine nature.  The Greek word θεῖος (i.e. divine) does not appear in the passage you cite.  If that was Paul's intent he could have made such a claim very clearly.  The fact he does not use the Greek word for divine refutes your claim.

 

No doubt some cite (as you have) 2 Pet. 1:4.  This passage however does not say we have a divine nature (or ever had one for that matter).  It states "you may become partakers of the divine nature."  That is not the same thing as having a divine nature.   This is not an example of apotheosis.  That would be pagan.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
8 minutes ago, Origen said:

The Scriptures NEVER claim we have or ever had a divine nature.  The Greek word θεῖος (i.e. divine) does not appear in the passage you cite.  If that was Paul's intent he could have made such a claim very clear.  The fact he does not use the Greek word for divine refutes your claim.

 

No doubt some cite (as you have) 2 Pet. 1:4.  This passage however does not say we have a divine nature (or ever had one for that matter).  It states "you may become partakers of the divine nature."  That is not the same thing as having a divine nature.   This is not an example of apotheosis.  That would be pagan.

I assumed the OP was stating the nature given by the divine (Holy Spirit) through regeneration?

 

This be an interesting discussion in itself. I mean while on one hand at first thought I reason that of course we have not a divine nature, I am reminded of who is actually residing in this Temple of flesh, and who else cannot take resident while He is here.

 

Interesting, these are the kinds of things I love to ponder.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
3 minutes ago, William said:

I assumed the OP was stating the nature given by the divine (Holy Spirit) through regeneration?

 

This be an interesting discussion in itself. I mean while on one hand at first thought I reason that of course we have not a divine nature, I am reminded of who is actually residing in this Temple of flesh, and who else cannot take resident while He is here.

 

Interesting, these are the kinds of things I love to ponder.

I agree.  I read your post but thought what if he means something difference, something more.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
21 minutes ago, Origen said:

 It states "you may become partakers of the divine nature."  That is not the same thing as having a divine nature.

I need to read more carefully, you actually addressed what I said (thinking) already.

Share this post


Link to post

Thank you all for taking the time to view this post. My only desire with these posts are to strengthen and encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ, just as I have been by the truths in them. God used others that know Him to share them with me and they have work mightily in me as I believe them. I spent decades of my natural life as a christian in the natural part of me, that is my flesh, not knowing my heavenly Father gave me a spirit, “a heart to know Him.” All those years I tried in my own strength to appropriate the knowledge of God thru my human intelligence, which ended in failure. And rightfully so, Jesus said, “Whoever has ears, let them hear.” This is not just hearing with our natural ears, otherwise all would hear and be saved. No it is much deeper, it is a hearing in the spirit. Our prideful intellects are the great hinderance, the veil that lies over our hearts. That’s why Jesus says, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things (the understanding of God’s word) from the wise and well educated (by this worlds standards) and revealed them to little children (humble, teachable, not masked with pride)… But when a person, the unconverted or a christian, “turns”, that is, away from self dependence toward God with the humble, teachable heart He gives them at the new birth and they hear, believe, with their heart what the Spirit says personally to them, “there is liberty.”

 

God bless you, your brother in Christ

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
12 minutes ago, Living Stone said:

My only desire with these posts are to strengthen and encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ

That cannot be done if

(A) your presentation of the theology is flawed (which could lead to heretical teaching)

or worst

(B) the theology itself is heretical from the get go.

 

Therein lies the problem with your posts.  Moreover you have does nothing to clear up the theological problems found in this thread.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
25 minutes ago, Living Stone said:

But when a person, the unconverted or a christian, “turns”, that is, away from self dependence toward God with the humble, teachable heart He gives them at the new birth and they hear, believe, with their heart what the Spirit says personally to them, “there is liberty.”

So, are you suggesting that man is saved by their very own "act" of faith or not? 

 

It appears that you think confession/repentance and even faith come before regeneration? After all, if one confesses and repents they must have faith in the object of faith that they are forgiven.

 

These things you list seemingly are a prerequisite to regeneration:

  1. turn away from self dependence
  2. humbleness
  3. teachable

 

Which comes first? Regeneration or these things?

 

1411374654_Whoisonfirst.gif.c03d5df1449f27c73ff19a4dc080ddbb.gif

 

Do you understand what Soli Deo Gloria means?

 

God bless,

William

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
44 minutes ago, Origen said:

Therein lies the problem with your posts.  Moreover you have does nothing to clear up the theological problems found in this thread.

Exactly, lots of people give me the impression that they are afraid of being wrong.

 

My question is simply whether Regeneration is an initial act of grace by God or a reward of man's faith?

 

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

  1. When I read the above verse I am asking, what is meant by grace and included in the entire grace package?
  2. And regarding "this" or "that" (depending on the translation), what does "this" in Ephesians 2:8 entail as the gift?

Now I don't mean to drag a dead Arminian into the discussion, but :classic_rolleyes::

 

1491121241_DeadArmininan.gif.f4654c4ad37fe8c5ba8d0ff9a20faf0b.gif

 

As we know the NT brings to light much more explicitly than what was known beforehand. Ephesians clearly states the timing of regeneration Ephesians 2:5 and how "we" (at least the NT saints) are saved v2:8-9.

 

God bless,

William

  • Best Answer 1

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, deade said:

I think this whole thread is a copy and paste from an article by David Leach on Jan 10, 2014. The reference is below. That may be why he can't argue the points.

 

https://www.sermoncentral.com/sermon...natures-182001

Well the link did work out so well. But here is the lead in to that article:

Quote

 

We Christians have two natures one utterly corrupt the other totally divine

Eph 4:22-24 (Written to Christians) That you put off, concerning your former conduct,

the old man (human nature) which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts… and that you put on the new man (divine nature) which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

What my human nature really looks like – Oh yes, and so does yours too

May I tell you the truth about the characteristics of my human nature, this is what the Bible refers to as my flesh, and this was the only nature I had until I was born again: This nature is inherently selfish, self absorbed, self promoting and self pitying. It’s most dominant characteristic is pride, which man defines as boastful but which God broadens to mean a rebellious independence from Him. This nature secretly envies, covets and lusts after what others have. It lives entirely in the material visible realm; therefore it can only be content when all its circumstances are favorable. It falsely assumes that the accumulation of much stuff will result in happiness. Since these desires are seldom achieved it is prone to constant worry and anxiety over the potential lack of things. Even when they are achieved it is prone to worry and anxiety over the loss of those things.

 

 

Kind of looks like plagiarism to me.

Share this post


Link to post

Thank you all for taking the time to view the Living Stone posts. I am a current member of Living Stones Bible Church. I have sat under the teaching of Pastor David Leach for the last 6 years and been changed by God through the truths in these messages. I am the person who put those messages on Sermon Central as well as many other sites with his full awareness and approval, there is no plagiarism here. I have constructed Living Stones website - www.madelikechrist.com. My only desire with these posts are to strengthen and encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ, just as I have been. God used others, Andrew Murray, A. B. Simpson, George Muller, Hudson Taylor and others that know Him to share God’s truth with me, and the truth, God’s word has work mightily in me as I believe them. I spent decades of my natural life as a christian in the natural part of me, that is my flesh, not knowing my heavenly Father gave me a spirit, “a heart to know Him.” All those years I tried in my own strength to appropriate the knowledge of God thru my human intelligence, which ended in failure. And rightfully so, Jesus said, “Whoever has ears, let them hear.” This is not just hearing with our natural ears, otherwise all would hear and be saved. No it is much deeper, it is a hearing in the spirit. Our prideful intellects are the great hinderance, the veil that lies over our hearts. That’s why Jesus says, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things (the understanding of God’s word) from the wise and well educated (by this worlds standards) and revealed them to little children (humble, teachable, not masked with pride)… But when a person, the unconverted or a christian, “turns”, that is, away from self dependence toward God with the humble, teachable heart He gives them at the new birth and they hear, believe, with their heart what the Spirit says personally to them, “there is liberty.”

 

God bless, your brother in Christ

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
27 minutes ago, Living Stone said:

I am the person who put those messages on Sermon Central as well as many other sites with his full awareness and approval, there is no plagiarism here.

That wasn't a concern. Not answering or elaborating on questions theological or otherwise needs be addressed.

 

27 minutes ago, Living Stone said:

But when a person, the unconverted or a christian, “turns”, that is, away from self dependence toward God with the humble, teachable heart He gives them at the new birth and they hear, believe, with their heart what the Spirit says personally to them, “there is liberty.”

This is completely wrong. What you're stating is that rebirth, regeneration, etc is a reward or the result of works. Too often do people suggest that it is their very own initial "act" of confession/repentance and faith etc that lands them salvation. None of the things you listed are a prerequisite to regeneration but they are the fruit of regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

 

There's little difference between your theology and that of Roman Catholicism in this respect.

 

Not addressing whether regeneration precedes faith has seemingly backed you into a corner. Please consider taking the time to read others and correct your theology. What you stated about having a teachable heart is meaningless unless that's an example you live in your ministry:

 

God bless,

William

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
1 minute ago, Living Stone said:

Thank you all for taking the time to view the Living Stone posts. I am a current member of Living Stones Bible Church. I have sat under the teaching of Pastor David Leach for the last 6 years and been changed by God through the truths in these messages. I am the person who put those messages on Sermon Central as well as many other sites with his full awareness and approval, there is no plagiarism here. I have constructed Living Stones website - www.madelikechrist.com. My only desire with these posts are to strengthen and encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ, just as I have been. God used others, Andrew Murray, A. B. Simpson, George Muller, Hudson Taylor and others that know Him to share God’s truth with me, and the truth, God’s word has work mightily in me as I believe them. I spent decades of my natural life as a christian in the natural part of me, that is my flesh, not knowing my heavenly Father gave me a spirit, “a heart to know Him.” All those years I tried in my own strength to appropriate the knowledge of God thru my human intelligence, which ended in failure. And rightfully so, Jesus said, “Whoever has ears, let them hear.” This is not just hearing with our natural ears, otherwise all would hear and be saved. No it is much deeper, it is a hearing in the spirit. Our prideful intellects are the great hinderance, the veil that lies over our hearts. That’s why Jesus says, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things (the understanding of God’s word) from the wise and well educated (by this worlds standards) and revealed them to little children (humble, teachable, not masked with pride)… But when a person, the unconverted or a christian, “turns”, that is, away from self dependence toward God with the humble, teachable heart He gives them at the new birth and they hear, believe, with their heart what the Spirit says personally to them, “there is liberty.”

 

God bless, your brother in Christ

If he is teaching that you have a divine nature, you have a real problem.  The Scriptures NEVER claim human beings have a divine nature.  Your sect sounds like a cult to me.

  • ouch 1

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
41 minutes ago, deade said:

I think this whole thread is a copy and paste from an article by David Leach on Jan 10, 2014. The reference is below. That may be why he can't argue the points.

 

https://www.sermoncentral.com/sermon...natures-182001

 

26 minutes ago, Living Stone said:

Thank you all for taking the time to view the Living Stone posts. I am a current member of Living Stones Bible Church. I have sat under the teaching of Pastor David Leach for the last 6 years and been changed by God through the truths in these messages. I am the person who put those messages on Sermon Central as well as many other sites with his full awareness and approval, there is no plagiarism here. I have constructed Living Stones website - www.madelikechrist.com. My only desire with these posts are to strengthen and encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ, just as I have been. God used others, Andrew Murray, A. B. Simpson, George Muller, Hudson Taylor and others that know Him to share God’s truth with me, and the truth, God’s word has work mightily in me as I believe them. I spent decades of my natural life as a christian in the natural part of me, that is my flesh, not knowing my heavenly Father gave me a spirit, “a heart to know Him.” All those years I tried in my own strength to appropriate the knowledge of God thru my human intelligence, which ended in failure. And rightfully so, Jesus said, “Whoever has ears, let them hear.” This is not just hearing with our natural ears, otherwise all would hear and be saved. No it is much deeper, it is a hearing in the spirit. Our prideful intellects are the great hinderance, the veil that lies over our hearts. That’s why Jesus says, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things (the understanding of God’s word) from the wise and well educated (by this worlds standards) and revealed them to little children (humble, teachable, not masked with pride)… But when a person, the unconverted or a christian, “turns”, that is, away from self dependence toward God with the humble, teachable heart He gives them at the new birth and they hear, believe, with their heart what the Spirit says personally to them, “there is liberty.”

 

God bless, your brother in Christ

Thank you for taking the time to reply to Deades post. Copyright stuff matters theses days. 

 

 What @William and @Origen are speaking of is much deeper then copyright . We humans often tend to get the cart before the horse.  God tells us simply 

 

Rom 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 
Rom 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 
Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 
Rom 3:13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 
Rom 3:14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 
Rom 3:15  Their feet are swift to shed blood: 
Rom 3:16  Destruction and misery are in their ways: 
Rom 3:17  And the way of peace have they not known: 
Rom 3:18  There is no fear of God before their eyes. 

 

We people do not seek God some times it might seem like that is what we see with our human eyes ..What we often do not see is His drawing His calling. 
 

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

 


 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
14 minutes ago, Becky said:

What @William and @Origen are speaking of is much deeper then copyright . We humans often tend to get the cart before the horse.  God tells us simply 

A Protestant Pillar (mini creed) is "Soli Deo Gloria" which means Glory to God alone, is one of the Five Solas of the Reformatiom meaning all the glory is due to God alone, since he did all the work — not only in the atonement of Christ, but even granting the faith which unites us to Christ and brings us into the salvation provided by his atonement.

 

If one reads any theology or comes up with a private interpretation that suggest any one else shares God's due glory then it is wise to reject it @Living Stone

 

The “five solas” is a term used to designate five great foundational rallying cries of the Protestant reformers. They are as follows: “Sola Scriptura” (Scripture Alone); “Sola Gratia” (Grace Alone); “Sola Fide” (Faith Alone); “Solus Christus” (Christ Alone); and “Soli Deo Gloria” (To God Alone Be Glory).

 

These “five solas” were developed in response to specific perversions of the truth that were taught by the corrupt Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Church taught that the foundation for faith and practice was a combination of the scriptures, sacred tradition, and the teachings of the magisterium and the pope; but the Reformers said, “No, our foundation is sola scriptura”. The Catholic Church taught that we are saved through a combination of God's grace, the merits that we accumulate through penance and good works, and the superfluity of merits that the saints before us accumulated; the reformers responded, “sola gratia”. The Catholic Church taught that we are justified by faith and the works that we produce, which the righteousness that God infuses in us through faith brings about. The reformers responded, “No, we are justified by faith alone, which lays hold of the alien righteousness of Christ that God freely credits to the account of those who believe”. The Catholic Church taught that we are saved by the merits of Christ and the saints, and that we approach God through Christ, the saints, and Mary, who all pray and intercede for us. The Reformers responded, “No, we are saved by the merits of Christ Alone, and we come to God through Christ Alone”. The Catholic Church adhered to what Martin Luther called the “theology of glory” (in opposition to the “theology of the cross”), in which the glory for a sinner's salvation could be attributed partly to Christ, partly to Mary and the saints, and partly to the sinner himself. The reformers responded, “No, the only true gospel is that which gives all glory to God alone, as is taught in the scriptures.”

 

God bless,

William

  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
23 hours ago, William said:

Exactly, lots of people give me the impression that they are afraid of being wrong.

 

My question is simply whether Regeneration is an initial act of grace by God or a reward of man's faith?

 

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

  1. When I read the above verse I am asking, what is meant by grace and included in the entire grace package?
  2. And regarding "this" or "that" (depending on the translation), what does "this" in Ephesians 2:8 entail as the gift?

Now I don't mean to drag a dead Arminian into the discussion, but :classic_rolleyes::

 

1491121241_DeadArmininan.gif.f4654c4ad37fe8c5ba8d0ff9a20faf0b.gif

 

As we know the NT brings to light much more explicitly than what was known beforehand. Ephesians clearly states the timing of regeneration Ephesians 2:5 and how "we" (at least the NT saints) are saved v2:8-9.

 

God bless,

William

In Ephesians 2:8-9 @Living Stone I suggested the "this or that" refers back to the entire salvation process. None of these are works on part of the recipient. Please take time to consider Ephesians 1, and honestly assess what you yourself have done in any of this:

 

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing gin the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us2 for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known3 to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

 

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, 15 to the praise of his glory.

 

Consider Ezekiel 36:25-27 which is regeneration, rebirth, born from above that Jesus alluded to from John 3 (a verse you quoted) and consider what you yourself have done and what God does:

 

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

Anything else or argument thereof attempts to puff the recipient up in pride (works righteousness or performance based salvation). In my mind this is nothing more than self-idolatry.

 

When you read such verses @Living Stone this should result in only one response, Soli Deo Gloria! Can I get an Amen?

 

giphy.gif

 

God bless,

William

Share this post


Link to post

Hello to all, my brothers and sisters I can see by everyones unanimous approval of the truths I’ve shared so far we will be like-minded…love as brothers, be tender-hearted and humble toward each other. I would like to clarify some of the many questions surrounding the recent posts I was led to share. I’ll start here, I believe that the kingdom of god (heaven) is just as Jesus said it is, and He prefaces it will these words, 

 

Notice they have closed their eyes,

v. 15 For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’

 

The Parable of the Sower Explained

 

18“Hear then the parable of the sower: 19When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. Matt 13:18-19

 

v. 19  When anyone (that would be the unconverted and Christians alike, God is not a respecter of persons) hears (that would be the hearing in the heart) the word of the kingdom (Jesus Christ, the living word of God) and does not understand (did not, not willing, chose to not open the door of their heart and let Him in) it, the evil one (Satan, the Devil, the Father of lies) comes and snatches away (steals) what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.

 

Our Father is a Spirit, He made us spirit, soul (or will), body. He use the word heart or spirit unchangeably in scripture. When we were born of our natural parents we received a God given pure heart or spirit.

 

“…The Father of spirits…” (Heb 12:9). And as “…The God of the spirits of all flesh…” (Num. 27:16)

Isa 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens … and the earth….Who gives …. spirit to those who walk on it: 

Zech 12:1 Thus says the LORD, who ….forms the spirit of man within him: 

John 1:9 That was the true Light which lights every man that comes into the world. 

 

Since our spirits were once alive to God but then died because of sin the scriptures consistently speak of our need to be re-conciled to God, to re-turn to God, to be re- born or begotten again, all of which attest to a relationship that had previously existed. That is why He says,

 

Jer 17:9  The heart (unregenerate heart) is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked…

Eze 36:26  (God) I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart (primarily unbelieving) and give you a tender, (God willed) responsive heart. He gives us a heart to know Him!

 

God bless you all, your brother in Christ

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Origen said:

If he is teaching that you have a divine nature, you have a real problem.  The Scriptures NEVER claim human beings have a divine nature.  Your sect sounds like a cult to me.

If anything it says the EXACT OPPOSITE. There is none righteous, there is none that seeks after God.

@Living Stone I implore you to search the Scriptures using proper interpretation techniques, and if this is what your pastor has been teaching I beg you to find a Bible Believing church.

 

  • Best Answer 1

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
33 minutes ago, Living Stone said:

When we were born of our natural parents we received a God given pure heart or spirit.

Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 8:21 The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Isaiah 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

Matthew 7:17-18 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.

 

Let's elaborate and emphasize!

 

To the Jew:

 

Psalm 14

2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,

to see if there are any who understand,1

who seek after God.

3  They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;

there is none who does good,

not even one.

 

To the Gentile:

 

10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;

11  no one understands;

no one seeks for God.

12  All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;

no one does good,

not even one.”

 

raw

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
22 minutes ago, Living Stone said:

Hello to all, my brothers and sisters I can see by everyones unanimous approval of the truths I’ve shared so far we will be like-minded…love as brothers, be tender-hearted and humble toward each other. I would like to clarify some of the many questions surrounding the recent posts I was led to share. I’ll start here, I believe that the kingdom of god (heaven) is just as Jesus said it is, and He prefaces it will these words, 

WOW NO  We do not unanimously approve.  Do you not read the replies to your postings ? This site is set up for discussion not monologues. Your posting and ignoring of replies shows clearly you will not discuss points brought forward by others. We will not grant space to those who preach other then  God's Whole Word.    

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
36 minutes ago, Living Stone said:

Hello to all, my brothers and sisters I can see by everyones unanimous approval of the truths I’ve shared so far we will be like-minded…love as brothers, be tender-hearted and humble toward each other.

giphy.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
14 hours ago, Living Stone said:

Hello to all, my brothers and sisters I can see by everyones unanimous approval of the truths I’ve shared so far we will be like-minded…love as brothers, be tender-hearted and humble toward each other. I would like to clarify some of the many questions surrounding the recent posts I was led to share.

I think I can speak for the staff here (if they don't mind).  LS you need to come to terms with the truth.

 

First, either you are delusional or a cultist.  No one reading this thread believes you have "unanimous approval."  In fact let me be clear.  I repudiate your false teaching and categorically state they are unbiblical.

 

Second, none of your posts address our concerns about you or your theology.  It is unfathomable how you could think your posts have address our concerns.  You have turned a blind eye to everything others have pointed out to you.

 

Third, if you do not attempt to address the problems with your theology which have been presented pointed out to you, then action will be taken.

 

If you are an orthodox believer this will be no problem for you.  It will be of the upmost concern to you.  No true believer wants to be associated with heretical beliefs and most certainly would want to correct the situation.  Only a cultist would seek to avoid such a reckoning.

  • Like 1
  • Praying 1

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.