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Dave L

Who is the "looming Great Tribulation" audience Jesus warns?

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In Matthew 24:15 Jesus says: ““So when you see the abomination of desolation—spoken about by Daniel the prophet—standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),” (Matthew 24:15) (NET)

 

Later he says “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe him.” (Matthew 24:23) (NET) audience

 

Does the tense of the word "you" limit the Great Tribulation to the life time of his present audience when spoken?

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1 hour ago, Dave L said:

Does the tense of the word "you" limit the Great Tribulation to the life time of his present audience when spoken?

Pronouns don't have tense.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Origen said:

Pronouns don't have tense.

 

 

Correction: Do the associated verbs reflect present tense? If so, wouldn't this limit the Great Tribulation to the life times of the audience? You = those present at the time spoken?

Edited by Dave L

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28 minutes ago, Dave L said:

Did the associated verbs reflect present tense?

No, it is an aorist, past tense.

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1 minute ago, Origen said:

No, it is an aorist, past tense.

Thanks, this is what I'm looking for. How does this relate to the audience then present? Does it mean they will live to see the Abomination of Desolation? Does it apply to Antiochus in the original Abomination of Desolation in 167 BC? How do you understand the passage?

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27 minutes ago, Dave L said:

Thanks, this is what I'm looking for. How does this relate to the audience then present? Does it mean they will live to see the Abomination of Desolation? Does it apply to Antiochus in the original Abomination of Desolation in 167 BC? How do you understand the passage?

My answer concerning the grammar is in the link I gave.   The abomination of Desolation and Antiochus are not grammatical issues.  Also verb tense cannot tell us who would live or not live until a certain event in and of itself.  It would take more than that.

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1 hour ago, Origen said:

My answer concerning the grammar is in the link I gave.   The abomination of Desolation and Antiochus are not grammatical issues.  Also verb tense cannot tell us who would live or not live until a certain event in and of itself.  It would take more than that.

Thanks for taking time for this. I can now rule this out.    

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No.It does not mean it had to had been the audience present when he said it.

 

"The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

 

Do you believe Jesus has returned as he said he would?

Can anyone provide us wity a date Jesus returned?

 

I believe jesus is speaking dirrectly to someone in this verse and its not someone who lived 2000 years ago.

 

Edited by Shilohsfoal

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On 11/14/2018 at 4:34 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

No.It does not mean it had to had been the audience present when he said it.

 

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

Do you believe Jesus has returned as he said he would?

Can anyone provide us wity a date Jesus returned?

 

I believe jesus is speaking dirrectly to someone in this verse and its not someone who lived 2000 years ago.

 

Someone?

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But Jesus tells his disciples not one stone will be left on top of another. And this happened in their immediate future, not thousands of years into the future.

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On 11/16/2018 at 8:16 AM, Dave L said:

But Jesus tells his disciples not one stone will be left on top of another. And this happened in their immediate future, not thousands of years into the future.

So you know for a fact the stones in jerusalem today in this generation shall not be thrown down?

Not even the wailing wall?

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10 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

So you know for a fact the stones in jerusalem today in this generation shall not be thrown down?

Not even the wailing wall?

We still have the disciples as the audience he spoke to about this, not people thousands of years into the future. They would see it in their lifetimes. Does God own all the cattle in the world or just those on a thousand hills?

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4 hours ago, Dave L said:

We still have the disciples as the audience he spoke to about this, not people thousands of years into the future. They would see it in their lifetimes. Does God own all the cattle in the world or just those on a thousand hills?

So you say nothing jesus has said pertains to you because you were not present with him 2000 years ago.Hes not talking to you because you were not his audience.

 

 

Edited by Shilohsfoal

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6 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

So you say nothing jesus has said pertains to you because you were not present with him 2000 years ago.

No, he did not say that nor did he imply it.  Simply because he believes the event "happened in their immediate future" does not suggest anyone believes Jesus had nothing to say which would pertain to us.  Don't go overboard.  Don't put words into someone else mouth.

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9 minutes ago, Origen said:

No, he did not say that nor did he imply it.  Simply because he believes the event "happened in their immediate future" does not suggest anyone believes Jesus had nothing to say which would pertain to us.  Don't go overboard.  Don't put words into someone else mouth.

Then the things jesus prophecied about the future could also pertain to this generation jesus is speaking of and not just of the apostles.

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1 minute ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Then the things jesus prophecied about the future could also pertain to this generation jesus is speaking of and not just of the apostles.

Not my point.  You claimed something concerning David L for which there is no evidence.  Don't go overboard.  Don't put words into someone else mouth.

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20 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

So you say nothing jesus has said pertains to you because you were not present with him 2000 years ago.Hes not talking to you because you were not his audience.

 

 

If you consider the disciples being his present audience, because "when you see" or "then if anyone says to you" are in the second person plural. Plus, they left town when they saw it happening which means they interpreted Jesus in this way. If you consider the great Jewish Tribulation (well past) is not the same as the tribulation of the Church (the entire New Covenant era), it is pretty understandable. 

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2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Then the things jesus prophecied about the future could also pertain to this generation jesus is speaking of and not just of the apostles.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun. Is there a thing of which it is said, “See, this is new”? It has been already in the ages before us. There is no remembrance of former things, nor will there be any remembrance of later things yet to be among those who come after.
 

I view Revelation as very applicable to every generation. For example, every generation has in some way identified an anti-christ, come under persecution etc. Why isn't it plausible that what is described in Revelation is a repeating cycle that will be fulfilled in a climatic ending?
 

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14 hours ago, Dave L said:

If you consider the disciples being his present audience, because "when you see" or "then if anyone says to you" are in the second person plural. Plus, they left town when they saw it happening which means they interpreted Jesus in this way. If you consider the great Jewish Tribulation (well past) is not the same as the tribulation of the Church (the entire New Covenant era), it is pretty understandable. 

So when jesus says someting like "when you see"he cant posibly talking to anyone other than thise present with him 2000 years ago?

Is that what you are claiming?

 

Im not sure whats going o here but im leaving this site.

I dont see the purpose of asking a question only to argue with someone who answers your question.

Seems like your baiting for an arguement.

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Which of these quotes Speaks of great tribulation as if it is a singular event?   Like the common term used today of 'The great tribulation' .  

 

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 
Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 
I know some of the later translations phrase some things slightly differently, I would be interested in reading any light  @Origen can add with his knowledge of the language. 

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9 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

So when jesus says someting like "when you see"he cant posibly talking to anyone other than thise present with him 2000 years ago?

Is that what you are claiming?

 

Im not sure whats going o here but im leaving this site.

I dont see the purpose of asking a question only to argue with someone who answers your question.

Seems like your baiting for an arguement.

I just joined this group and hate to see you go. But if I say "I hate to see you go", who am I speaking to? If I say "You" in the second person plural,it applies only to you or any friends you might have with you. As in the case of Jesus' audience, the disciples, whom he addressed using second person plural.

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11 hours ago, Becky said:

Which of these quotes Speaks of great tribulation as if it is a singular event?   Like the common term used today of 'The great tribulation' .  

 

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 
Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 
I know some of the later translations phrase some things slightly differently, I would be interested in reading any light  @Origen can add with his knowledge of the language. 

I doubt I could answer such a question to anyone satisfaction.  There are so many issues and questions concerning methodology (i.e. exegesis and hermeneutics).  The answer someone gives to those (for they are really the defining factors regarding the text) determines ones interpretation and consequently the meaning of the text.

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Sheesh OK .. Thanks for the honest reply even if i dont like it,,,:classic_smile: Much better then being ignored 

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2 hours ago, Becky said:

Sheesh OK .. Thanks for the honest reply even if i dont like it,,,:classic_smile: Much better then being ignored 

I would NEVER ignore you.

 

Also let me say something about methodology.

 

For example I take very, very seriously the grammar, syntax, and the semantic domain of the vocabulary.  That is always first.  Also the historical (background), cultural, theological, literary contexts must be clearly understood.  This is the methodology I use.

 

As I have said before, the Bible must be interpreted in context. But what is often not stated is that the context isn't our own or that of some theological tradition. It is the context that produced it, namely the ancient Near East/Mediterranean world. God chose people to write the biblical text, and people write using grammar, in styles understood by their peers, and with deliberate intent. We need to understand a text from their point of view not ours

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      in God (Trinitarian doctrines)

    • The true worship of Jesus by the Jehovah's Witnesses (2 Timothy 4:16-18)

      2 Timothy 4:16-18 (16) At my first defense no one supported me, but all deserted me; may it not be counted against them. (17) But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that through me the proclamation might be fully accomplished, and that all the Gentiles might hear; and I was rescued out of the lion’s mouth. (18) The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (NASB)   In their book Stay Close to Jehovah's Organization the Jehovah's Witnesses assert the following (the bold face is mine):  Even if you do find yourself isolated from all your Christian brothers, keep in mind that you are not isolated from Jehovah and his Son, Jesus Christ. Your hope can remain firm. Jehovah can still hear your prayers, and he can strengthen you with his spirit. Look to him for guidance. Remember that you are a servant of Jehovah and a disciple of Jesus Christ. Therefore, make good use of opportunities to witness. Jehovah will bless your efforts, and others may soon join you in true worship.—Acts 4:13-31; 5:27-42; Phil. 1:27-30; 4:6, 7; 2 Tim. 4:16-18. (Organized to Do Jehovah's Will, see the 5th to the last paragraph). https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014947    As with all the other passages cited 2 Timothy 4:16-18 is also used in reference to true worship.   Notice though that the Jehovah's Witnesses affirm that the "Lord" in both 2 Timothy 4:17 and 2 Timothy 4:18 refers to the Lord Jesus.      a. Our Kingdom Ministry—2014: Even in his heavenly position, Jesus shows personal interest. (2 Tim. 4:17) (Improving Our Skills in the Ministry—Showing Personal Interest) https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/202014401      b. The Watchtower: The individuals hearing Jesus could, if they faithfully served God, have the expectation of reigning with Christ in heaven. (2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 20:4, 6) (Questions From Readers, March 1, 1967). https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1967167    Thus the Jehovah's Witnesses (inadvertently?) affirm that true worship is properly rendered unto the Lord Jesus.  

      in Arianism

    • Why Did Jesus Sleep During the Storm?

      The story of the sea storm in the Gospel of Mark picks up right after Jesus has given a series of sermons. He’s preached to a crowd so large that he had to speak from a boat pushed a short distance into the water. Mark 4:35–41 tells the story of Jesus calming the storm—but, curiously, we find the Lord asleep as the chaos breaks out around him: And a great windstorm arose, and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion. And they woke him and said to him, “Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?” And he awoke and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. (Mark 4:37–39) Why was Jesus asleep in the boat? There are a few possible explanations. Mark, as well as most of the other biblical authors, is spare with his details—including only those elements necessary to the author’s agenda—so we could assume it’s a salient element to the story. There are three possibilities. 1. A Link to Jonah Perhaps Mark tells us Jesus is sleeping in order to link the account to Jonah. The story of Jonah shares similar elements and language (in its Greek translation) to the one in Mark 4, which suggests Mark is evoking the story. One is the idea of the main character sleeping in the bottom of the boat during the storm, though the language used to describe Jonah is more vivid and possibly pejorative. 2. A Clue about Jesus’s Humanity Jesus is fully human: He works hard, does much public speaking, and deals with many different people, all of whom want something from him. Given the strains ordinary ministers experience in their daily work, the fully human Jesus must have suffered from exhaustion during his earthly ministry. 3. A Clue about Jesus’s Divinity Though Jesus is a human, he also has full confidence in his divine identity. As only the second person of the Trinity can, Jesus sleeps like a baby amid the chaos, secure in the realization that he is one with the Creator, and his time has not come. His sleep signals divine insight: Jesus knows he’s not going to die tonight. Of course, all three of these explanations are possible at the same time, because human language in the hands of a skilled author can convey multiple complex ideas at once. Why These Three Options? Surely, the sleeping Jesus is supposed to make you think about Jonah’s story (the first option), where a suspicious storm develops and is quieted by God and all the witnesses are left terrified. Remember when the sailors cast lots, asking, “Who has brought this storm on us?” The lot falls on Jonah. They begrudgingly throw the prophet overboard, and the storm immediately dissipates. The emphasis is on who calms the storm. The Lord, Creator of heaven and earth, stills it, and the sailors know they have just witnessed God’s hand and his complete authority over the forces of creation. In Jonah 1:16, “the men feared the LORD exceedingly.” The Greek translation of this passage emphasizes the great fear the sailors experience when they see God’s power on display. It’s even greater than their fear of the storm (1:5). It’s fear-inducing to know that the cosmic God who calms the storm also cares about the rebellion of a single man. In Mark, Jesus also sleeps. The disciples wake him for fear of their lives (as in Jonah, the sleeper is roused with a rhetorical question), and the wind and waves are calmed. Mark seems to be drawing our attention to the agent who calms the storm. In Jonah, the agent is the Lord, but in Mark 4 it is Jesus. Jesus is to the storm in Mark 4 what God is to the wind and waves in Jonah 1. And as if to drive the point home, the disciples who bear witness to all of this are described in virtually the same phraseology used in the Greek translation of Jonah. They are “exceedingly afraid” (Mark 4:41).  The storm was terrifying, but this prophet in the boat with the power to speak truth to the weather presents an entirely new source of fear. The authority of God inspires such fear in those who see it firsthand. But the second option works as well. Jesus’s sleep in the boat is a reminder of his humanity. It’s a fascinating idea that there were regular moments when the God-man, the Lord of the universe, may have laid down and pondered some random thoughts before sleep overtook him. As a human, he could grow tired, even to a point of exhaustion. So he gets in the boat and lies back like a business traveler on a red-eye flight, trying to fit in sleep wherever he can. Mark’s audience could readily identify with Jesus’s humanity. The third option is also compelling. Just the fact that Jesus sleeps is a clue to his divinity. How? Jesus didn’t fear the wind and waves or anything they could do to him. The Creator need not be restless in the face of a dangerous creation. When Jonah secretly sleeps below the decks, he does so in a spirit of fatalism and dread. When Jesus sleeps in the hull of the boat, he does so in confidence. He doesn’t lose sleep on account of weather patterns. Jesus is more than a teacher; he’s a miracle-worker. Once the reader absorbs that point, Mark ups the ante. Jesus is more than a teacher and more than a miracle-worker. He has the authority of the Creator himself. View the full article

      in Christian Current Events

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