Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Christian and Theologically Protestant? Or, sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Fenced Community

Christforums is a Protestant Christian forum, open to Bible-believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene- derived Christian Church. We do not solicit cultists of any kind, including Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Eastern Lightning, Falun Gong, Unification Church, Aum Shinrikyo, Christian Scientists or any other non-Nicene, non-Biblical heresy.
Register now

Christian Fellowship

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Truth7t7

Does Revelation 20:1-6 Represent A Human Kingdom On This Earth For 1000 Years?

Recommended Posts

Staff

I dont have the time to answer just now... @davidtaylorjr about  your double post nice to know i am not the only one. :classic_smile:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
7 minutes ago, Becky said:

I dont have the time to answer just now... @davidtaylorjr about  your double post nice to know i am not the only one. :classic_smile:

There's an edit option which admins and mods can use to go back and correct such posts. 

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
2 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

 

Which then begs the other part of my challenge. Was/will Satan be bound and then released? If that is also figurative, what does it mean? When did/will this happen? What is your evidence?

I believe so. Of course we may differ as to what Satan being bound means in the first place concerning God's elect during the symbolic 1000 years, which is simply a duration of time until completion, but I see no reason to think Satan will not be loosed to gather his people against the Lord. 

 

Note, perhaps I shouldn't have answered as I'm typing from a mobile phone while transient and haven't taken the time to provide verses etc. 

 

2 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

 

Which then begs the other part of my challenge. Was/will Satan be bound and then released? If that is also figurative, what does it mean? When did/will this happen? What is your evidence?

I think Becky's use of Psalm 50:10 conveys a symbolic number which is an allusion to all the cattle and hills. For example does the Lord only have 1000 hills, and if so who owns 1001+ hills? Of course God is sovereign over all creation, all the cattle and hills are His. Likewise, God is sovereign and ruling now, the 1000 years are symbolic and represent, as mentioned before a duration of time, which is unknown (despite all the false predictions for 2000 years). The millennium of unknown duration may continue another second to thousands of years etc until everyone of God's elect are brought into repentance. This should be quite evident to Calvinst because many Arminians point out Peter stating a day is like a thousand years which I am not contending anything else but the purpose of the unknown period Peter gave for assurance.

 

I have to stop because my thumb is tired from typing on the phone lol.

  • Best Answer 1

Share this post


Link to post

And there was silence in heaven for the space of half an hour (while William's thumb rested).

 

Rev 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

Why are Gog and Magog mentioned as the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth?  Gog was a ruler - Magog was one nation, not IN THE FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH.

 

This is a deliberate non-literal designation, like the 'city' in the verse below:

 

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

 

Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.
Sodom and Egypt are different places - at least this is explained - Jerusalem is SPIRITUALLY CALLED Sodom and Egypt

 

For a thousand years, Satan has been bound, Beast and False Prophet are in Lake of Fire - Christ ruling with a rod of iron - what am I missing here?  What conditions are such that humans living in a God-ruled kingdom for a millennium are ready to revolt and follow Satan against God all of a sudden?  Doesn't make sense; can't be literal.
 

  • Best Answer 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 11/6/2018 at 12:38 PM, davidtaylorjr said:

1,000 years seems to be a representation of time. Not really any other way to slice that pie.

The verse below 2 Peter 3:8 is teaching man, the Lord's expression of "His Time" is "Eternal"

 

Is it a literal day or 1000 thousand years, or eternal?

 

Revelation 20:1-6 is expressing the Lord's "Eternal" realm, as there is no earthly kingdom found in Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ, 100% the Lords spiritual realm.

 

You disregard this "Spiritual" in personal bias to create a literal kingdom on earth not seen?

 

2 Peter 3:8KJV

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Anto9us said:

And there was silence in heaven for the space of half an hour (while William's thumb rested).

 

Rev 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

Why are Gog and Magog mentioned as the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth?  Gog was a ruler - Magog was one nation, not IN THE FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH.

 

This is a deliberate non-literal designation, like the 'city' in the verse below:

 

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

 

Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.
Sodom and Egypt are different places - at least this is explained - Jerusalem is SPIRITUALLY CALLED Sodom and Egypt

 

For a thousand years, Satan has been bound, Beast and False Prophet are in Lake of Fire - Christ ruling with a rod of iron - what am I missing here?  What conditions are such that humans living in a God-ruled kingdom for a millennium are ready to revolt and follow Satan against God all of a sudden?  Doesn't make sense; can't be literal.
 

I agree 100%++++

 

Dispensationalism, falsely teaches the book of Revelation is seen in chronological order, this is where the deception is, as they create two separate wars, and a 1000 year kingdom inbetween.

 

The book of Revelation is seen in parallel teachings of the same events.

 

The end of the world is seen various times, in parallel teachings in revelation.

 

The seventh angel sounds, "The End"

 

Revelation 11:15KJV

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

"It Is Done, The End"

 

Revelation 16:17KJV

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

 

Which then begs the other part of my challenge. Was/will Satan be bound and then released? If that is also figurative, what does it mean? When did/will this happen? What is your evidence?

The very context fully explains Satan being bound, and from what?

 

We know Satan is bound spiritually from "Deceiving The Nations" as seen in Rev 20:2-3 below?

 

The definition of "Deceive The Nations" is seen in verse 8 below, as Satan will "Deceive The Nations" To battle.

 

Satan is currently bound in the spiritual from performing this deception, as the angel in Rev 16:12-14 below must pour the sixth vial for Satan to be loosed.

 

Revelation 20:7-8 & Revelation 16:12-14 same event of Satan being loosed to deceive the nations to battle.

 

"Deceive The Nations" dose'nt represent all evil being bound in the world, as dispensationalism teaches.

 

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

Revelation 16:12-14KJV

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
17 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

So you don't have evidence of this and it is just that you cannot picture it? That's not exactly good exegesis. That's the same thing the Mormons say.

 

"I know that Mormonism is true because I feel it"  Sorry, that's not good enough.

1. Does Jesus return in the second advent in verses 31-32 below? "Yes"

 

2. Does verse 46 show judgment to "Eternal Punishment", and the righteous to "Life Eternal"? "Yes"

 

All questions are "Yes"

 

When Jesus Christ returns, "Eternal Life Begins", not a 1000 year kingdom, where Jesus runs around playing funeral director for humans dying around him.

 

Those that have a pre-determined bias in a literal 1000 year kingdom on earth, don't want to acknowledge the very clear teaching, because their mortal human kingdom is gone.

 

Yes Matthew 25:31-46 is a parable of the Great White Throne Judgment seen in Revelation 20:11-15

 

Verse 46 "Life Eternal"

 

Matthew 25:31-46KJV

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Revelation 20:11-15KJV

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
On 10/22/2018 at 6:56 AM, theophilus said:

During the Millennium the only mortals who die will be those who are executed for violating God's laws.  The Bible says that Jesus will rule with a rod of iron.

Now Jesus is sitting on the throne, watching mortal humans execute other humans?

 

"Big Smiles"

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
6 hours ago, Truth7t7 said:

The verse below 2 Peter 3:8 is teaching man, the Lord's expression of "His Time" is "Eternal"

The expression "that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" in context concerns God's promises in the very next verse, and says nothing about a day equating a thousand years in a spiritual or eternal realm but emphasizes the patience and/or long suffering of the Lord to bring God's elect to repentance. Peter is addressing the concern of God's people as to why an apparent delay exists for His return. 

 

I'm just addressing a verse which is often isolated and used to establish no time existing in eternity to define days given in creation. 

 

If time doesn't exist in heaven or is not experienced in the eternal spiritual realm I question whether there exists speech or singing which worships or praises God?

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
12 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

 

Which then begs the other part of my challenge. Was/will Satan be bound and then released? If that is also figurative, what does it mean? When did/will this happen? What is your evidence?

Please note i am not a writer. The thoughts in my head and heart dont translate to paper very well . I can not isolate this or that event very  well. The simplest way would be to say my views are orthodox preterist.  Before some one slams me i totally believe our Lord Jesus will return. 

I have stated before i grew up in  dispensational teaching. Dad a AofG pastor . Subjects talked about in our home revolved around the Word, and Israel as the it is now the mid 50s,  Fully accepting my parents beliefs, i KNEW the church and Israel were 2 different things. I KNEW everything would be wonderful when Jesus returned. Being born in 46 i was old enough to hear how the end would 7 years after Israel became a nation. ( 48 plus 7 = 55 ) So doubts are beginning to inter my head. Not doubts of God's Word but doubts of our understandings.

Fast forward a few years . 

After a short spell of rebellion I now have husband and kids. 

I am picking up the Bible again. At this same time getting letters from Dad sharing wiht us kids what he was seeing in Scripture.

I noticed a few, to me important, points ,,  

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 
Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 

Rom_2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. 

Seeing this called into question all i thought i knew.  Seeing there is not a division between God's people caused a questioning of dispensational teaching.. The more i looked the more i ask God to remove all i thought i knew and open my heart the more i learned. Scofield was a big part of what i thought i knew. To my child's mind his notes were part of the Bible. Reason being they are printed there. 

In the older Scofield editions there was this note . 

Quote

 

13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

1 Gather

The gathering of the tares into bundles for burning does not imply immediate judgment. At the end of this age (Matthew 13:40) the tares are set apart for burning, but first the wheat is gathered into the barn. ; John 14:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

 

 

Scofield says but first the wheat is gathered into the barn. Which is contrary to God's Word.  My mind asks what else is contrary to the Word? Dispensational teaching says the covenant with Abraham is unconditional .. the Scriptures say IF ye obey. here is an example

 

Gen 26:4  And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 
Gen 26:5  Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. 

 

Lev 26:40  If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; 
Lev 26:41  And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: 
Lev 26:42  Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. 
I understand this post is sorta off topic in some ways but in my heart/mind it is connected.. When i chose to see Israel and Church as one, seeing there is no 'them and us' a window was opened.  

This is a long post and i have house hold chores to tend to . I will continue later . 

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
16 minutes ago, Becky said:

Please note i am not a writer. The thoughts in my head and heart dont translate to paper very well . I can not isolate this or that event very  well. The simplest way would be to say my views are orthodox preterist.  Before some one slams me i totally believe our Lord Jesus will return. 

I have stated before i grew up in  dispensational teaching. Dad a AofG pastor . Subjects talked about in our home revolved around the Word, and Israel as the it is now the mid 50s,  Fully accepting my parents beliefs, i KNEW the church and Israel were 2 different things. I KNEW everything would be wonderful when Jesus returned. Being born in 46 i was old enough to hear how the end would 7 years after Israel became a nation. ( 48 plus 7 = 55 ) So doubts are beginning to inter my head. Not doubts of God's Word but doubts of our understandings.

Fast forward a few years . 

After a short spell of rebellion I now have husband and kids. 

I am picking up the Bible again. At this same time getting letters from Dad sharing wiht us kids what he was seeing in Scripture.

I noticed a few, to me important, points ,,  

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 
Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 

Rom_2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. 

Seeing this called into question all i thought i knew.  Seeing there is not a division between God's people caused a questioning of dispensational teaching.. The more i looked the more i ask God to remove all i thought i knew and open my heart the more i learned. Scofield was a big part of what i thought i knew. To my child's mind his notes were part of the Bible. Reason being they are printed there. 

In the older Scofield editions there was this note . 

Scofield says but first the wheat is gathered into the barn. Which is contrary to God's Word.  My mind asks what else is contrary to the Word? Dispensational teaching says the covenant with Abraham is unconditional .. the Scriptures say IF ye obey. here is an example

 

Gen 26:4  And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 
Gen 26:5  Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. 

 

Lev 26:40  If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; 
Lev 26:41  And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: 
Lev 26:42  Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. 
I understand this post is sorta off topic in some ways but in my heart/mind it is connected.. When i chose to see Israel and Church as one, seeing there is no 'them and us' a window was opened.  

This is a long post and i have house hold chores to tend to . I will continue later . 

I must admit I find it very difficult to understand dispensationalism because I haven't run into any two dispensationalist that teach identical soteriology. This is especially confusing when engaged in dialogue with a calvinist/dispensationalist because the ordo salutis is either consistently the same between both old and new testaments or not according to various dispensations. 

 

This, by my observation is why actual 5 point Calvinist are a rarity among the dispensational camp. Approaching dispensationalist definitely takes patience to understand the individual theology. 

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
14 minutes ago, William said:

I must admit I find it very difficult to understand dispensationalism because I haven't run into any two dispensationalist that teach identical soteriology. This is especially confusing when engaged in dialogue with a calvinist/dispensationalist because the ordo salutis is either consistently the same between both old and new testaments or not according to various dispensations. 

 

This, by my observation is why actual 5 point Calvinist are a rarity among the dispensational camp. Approaching dispensationalist definitely takes patience to understand the individual theology. 

I agree . According to dispensational teaching  if one is Jewish by blood their salvation is different . To me that is not Scriptural . 

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Truth7t7 said:

When Jesus Christ returns, "Eternal Life Begins", not a 1000 year kingdom, where Jesus runs around playing funeral director for humans dying around him.

I think you need to change your wording. Nobody that I know talks about a 1,000-year kingdom that ends at the end of those 1,000 years. This is a misrepresentation of what is going on here. The 1,000 years are a time when Satan is bound, he is released at the end of the 1,000 years for the final battle. The Kingdom continues because the Kingdom is victorious.

 

34 minutes ago, Becky said:

Subjects talked about in our home revolved around the Word, and Israel as the it is now the mid 50s,  Fully accepting my parents beliefs, i KNEW the church and Israel were 2 different things. I KNEW everything would be wonderful when Jesus returned. Being born in 46 i was old enough to hear how the end would 7 years after Israel became a nation. ( 48 plus 7 = 55 ) So doubts are beginning to inter my head. Not doubts of God's Word but doubts of our understandings.

It should be noted, that this doesn't directly deal with Dispensational Theology but rather a sect of Dispensationalists. The idea that we can predict anything date-wise is utterly absurd. We know this from Scripture.

 

35 minutes ago, Becky said:

After a short spell of rebellion I now have husband and kids. 

I am picking up the Bible again. At this same time getting letters from Dad sharing wiht us kids what he was seeing in Scripture.

I noticed a few, to me important, points ,,  

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 
Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 

Rom_2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. 

Seeing this called into question all i thought i knew.  Seeing there is not a division between God's people caused a questioning of dispensational teaching.. The more i looked the more i ask God to remove all i thought i knew and open my heart the more i learned. Scofield was a big part of what i thought i knew. To my child's mind his notes were part of the Bible. Reason being they are printed there. 

Again, I think this is a misrepresentation of Dispensational Theology. You must also look at the paradigm shift between the Old Testament, and what Paul is writing here. God interacted with humanity different in the Old Testament then He does now in the Church Era. He also interacted differently with humanity before the fall. There is also a distinction clearly in Romans 11 between Ethnic Israel and the Church. That is not to say that some of Ethnic Israel cannot be part of the church. Think of a Vinn Diagram.  But not all Church is Ethnic Israel. In that sense, you harmonize both positions. Yes, there is a distinction between Jew and Greek, but there is not a distinction between who can be saved by grace through faith.

 

38 minutes ago, Becky said:

Scofield says but first the wheat is gathered into the barn. Which is contrary to God's Word.  My mind asks what else is contrary to the Word? Dispensational teaching says the covenant with Abraham is unconditional .. the Scriptures say IF ye obey. here is an example

Scofield is just one man. I really hate it when people single him out as the supposed face of Dispensational Theology. I would highly Recommend Bock's book "Progressive Dispensationalism."

 

39 minutes ago, Becky said:

I understand this post is sorta off topic in some ways but in my heart/mind it is connected.. When i chose to see Israel and Church as one, seeing there is no 'them and us' a window was opened. 

Romans 11 makes clear the distinction between the Church and Israel. Israel is at enmity with the Church.

 

29 minutes ago, William said:

I must admit I find it very difficult to understand dispensationalism because I haven't run into any two dispensationalist that teach identical soteriology. This is especially confusing when engaged in dialogue with a calvinist/dispensationalist because the ordo salutis is either consistently the same between both old and new testaments or not according to various dispensations. 

 

This, by my observation is why actual 5 point Calvinist are a rarity among the dispensational camp. Approaching dispensationalist definitely takes patience to understand the individual theology. 

I guess I am a rarity? :classic_wink:

7 minutes ago, Becky said:

I agree . According to dispensational teaching  if one is Jewish by blood their salvation is different . To me that is not Scriptural . 

According to a section of Dispensationalists. This is NOT true of Dispensational Theology as a whole, please don't make those generalities. 

Share this post


Link to post
58 minutes ago, William said:

The expression "that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" in context concerns God's promises in the very next verse, and says nothing about a day equating a thousand years in a spiritual or eternal realm but emphasizes the patience and/or long suffering of the Lord to bring God's elect to repentance. Peter is addressing the concern of God's people as to why an apparent delay exists for His return. 

 

I'm just addressing a verse which is often isolated and used to establish no time existing in eternity to define days given in creation. 

 

If time doesn't exist in heaven or is not experienced in the eternal spiritual realm I question whether there exists speech or singing which worships or praises God?

I will disagree with you on this one, verse 8 below stands alone in my opinion, and explains there is no time with the God in the Spiritual, he is Alpha/Omega

 

You suggest time exist in the eternal spiritual realm?

 

I strongly disagree, eternal has no time clock, it's beyond human thought or understanding.

 

2 Peter 3:8KJV

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Truth7t7 said:

I will disagree with you on this one, verse 8 below stands alone in my opinion, and explains there is no time with the God in the Spiritual, he is Alpha/Omega

Of course, if you read the verse, that is not what it says at all. 

Share this post


Link to post
20 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

I think you need to change your wording. Nobody that I know talks about a 1,000-year kingdom that ends at the end of those 1,000 years. This is a misrepresentation of what is going on here. The 1,000 years are a time when Satan is bound, he is released at the end of the 1,000 years for the final battle. The Kingdom continues because the Kingdom is victorious.

 

It should be noted, that this doesn't directly deal with Dispensational Theology but rather a sect of Dispensationalists. The idea that we can predict anything date-wise is utterly absurd. We know this from Scripture.

 

Again, I think this is a misrepresentation of Dispensational Theology. You must also look at the paradigm shift between the Old Testament, and what Paul is writing here. God interacted with humanity different in the Old Testament then He does now in the Church Era. He also interacted differently with humanity before the fall. There is also a distinction clearly in Romans 11 between Ethnic Israel and the Church. That is not to say that some of Ethnic Israel cannot be part of the church. Think of a Vinn Diagram.  But not all Church is Ethnic Israel. In that sense, you harmonize both positions. Yes, there is a distinction between Jew and Greek, but there is not a distinction between who can be saved by grace through faith.

 

Scofield is just one man. I really hate it when people single him out as the supposed face of Dispensational Theology. I would highly Recommend Bock's book "Progressive Dispensationalism."

 

Romans 11 makes clear the distinction between the Church and Israel. Israel is at enmity with the Church.

 

I guess I am a rarity? :classic_wink:

According to a section of Dispensationalists. This is NOT true of Dispensational Theology as a whole, please don't make those generalities. 

You gave "Complete Disregard" to my post, we will try again?

 

Please respond directly to the subject matter below.

 

I don't care about dispensationalist, Scofield, distinction between the Church and Israel?

 

Respond to the claims below "Directly" 

 

1. Does Jesus return in the second advent in verses 31-32 below? "Yes"

 

2. Does verse 46 show judgment to "Eternal Punishment", and the righteous to "Life Eternal"? "Yes"

 

All questions are "Yes"

 

When Jesus Christ returns, "Eternal Life Begins", not a 1000 year kingdom, where Jesus runs around playing funeral director for humans dying around him.

 

Those that have a pre-determined bias in a literal 1000 year kingdom on earth, don't want to acknowledge the very clear teaching, because their mortal human kingdom is gone.

 

Yes Matthew 25:31-46 is a parable of the Great White Throne Judgment seen in Revelation 20:11-15

 

Verse 46 "Life Eternal"

 

Matthew 25:31-46KJV

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Revelation 20:11-15KJV

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

You gave "Complete Disregard" to my post, we will try again?

I did not completely disregard your post.

 

3 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

All questions are "Yes"

Correct

 

3 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

When Jesus Christ returns, "Eternal Life Begins", not a 1000 year kingdom, where Jesus runs around playing funeral director for humans dying around him.

I already addressed this in the post that I "completely disregarded your post..."

 

4 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Those that have a pre-determined bias in a literal 1000 year kingdom on earth, don't want to acknowledge the very clear teaching, because their mortal human kingdom is gone.

Based on? There is a very clear teaching in Revelation that there is a 1,000 period where Satan is bound and not able to deceive the nations and is then released for a final battle. Are you honestly saying that all happens after the physical world is gone? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Truth7t7 said:

Satan is currently bound in the spiritual from performing this deception, as the angel in Rev 16:12-14 below must pour the sixth vial for Satan to be loosed.

Interesting because I notice A WHOLE LOT of deception going on currently.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff

I have found so often when discussing dispensational ideals pointing out with Scripture how the teaching is outside of scripture the other side says things like not my sect.  In my opinion denying Scofield's role in the teaching is akin to saying Calvin and Luther have nothing or not much to do with the reformation.  

  • Best Answer 1

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Interesting because I notice A WHOLE LOT of deception going on currently.

No deception, as you take a snip of my post and put your belief as true and mine as deception?

 

Answer the post in its entirety, stop running in snip clips with no response.

 

The very context fully explains Satan being bound, and from what?

 

We know Satan is bound spiritually from "Deceiving The Nations" as seen in Rev 20:2-3 below?

 

The definition of "Deceive The Nations" is seen in verse 8 below, as Satan will "Deceive The Nations" To battle.

 

Satan is currently bound in the spiritual from performing this deception, as the angel in Rev 16:12-14 below must pour the sixth vial for Satan to be loosed.

 

Revelation 20:7-8 & Revelation 16:12-14same event of Satan being loosed to deceive the nations to battle.

 

"Deceive The Nations" dose'nt represent all evil being bound in the world, as dispensationalism teaches.

 

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

Revelation 16:12-14KJV

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Becky said:

I have found so often when discussing dispensational ideals pointing out with Scripture how the teaching is outside of scripture the other side says things like not my sect.  In my opinion denying Scofield's role in the teaching is akin to saying Calvin and Luther have nothing or not much to do with the reformation.  

I would say that is Apples and Oranges. But we will have to agree to disagree.  What you pointed out by Scofield is not a Dispensational ideal, rather his own personal interpretation.

 

Granted, I am more of a Progressive Dispensationalist than Classical. But really, you shouldn't lump all of them together because they are not the same thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
7 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Yes, there is a distinction between Jew and Greek, but there is not a distinction between who can be saved by grace through faith.

The above quote is what dispensation teaches 

Here is the Scripture

 

Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 
Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 
Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 

Just now, davidtaylorjr said:

I would say that is Apples and Oranges. But we will have to agree to disagree.  What you pointed out by Scofield is not a Dispensational ideal, rather his own personal interpretation.

 

Granted, I am more of a Progressive Dispensationalist than Classical. But really, you shouldn't lump all of them together because they are not the same thing.

They are of the same root 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Truth7t7 said:

No deception, as you take a snip of my post and put you belief as true and my as deception?

What in the world are you talking about? I did not say you were practicing deception. I said Satan is currently practicing deception.

 

2 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

We know Satan is bound spiritually from "Deceiving The Nations" as seen in Rev 20:2-3 below?

Which he is still doing.

2 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Satan is currently bound in the spiritual from performing this deception, as the angel in Rev 16:12-14 below must pour the sixth vial for Satan to be loosed.

That is what I am saying. No, he isn't. He is currently and actively deceiving.

 

3 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

"Deceive The Nations" dose'nt represent all evil being bound in the world, as dispensationalism teaches.

What, in your opinion, does it represent then?

2 minutes ago, Becky said:

Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 
Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 
Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 

None of this argues for the equivalence of Israel and the Church, just Jew and Gentile in the New Testament Era.

 

3 minutes ago, Becky said:

They are of the same root 

That's like saying Luther and Calvin agreed on every topic of theology. They did not.

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Based on? There is a very clear teaching in Revelation that there is a 1,000 period where Satan is bound and not able to deceive the nations and is then released for a final battle. Are you honestly saying that all happens after the physical world is gone? 

 

The very context fully explains Satan being bound, and from what?

 

We know Satan is bound spiritually from "Deceiving The Nations" as seen in Rev 20:2-3 below?

 

The definition of "Deceive The Nations" is seen in verse 8 below, as Satan will "Deceive The Nations" To battle.

 

Satan is currently bound in the spiritual from performing this deception, as the angel in Rev 16:12-14 below must pour the sixth vial for Satan to be loosed.

 

Revelation 20:7-8 & Revelation 16:12-14same event of Satan being loosed to deceive the nations to battle.

 

"Deceive The Nations" dose'nt represent all evil being bound in the world, as dispensationalism teaches.

 

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

Revelation 16:12-14KJV

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.