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  1. Hi W, OK,,, let me clarify. I happen to be familiar with church history. Also the ECF. I'm sure you k ow that the catholic church kept heresies out of the Christian faith in the early years. I very much like and respect the ECFs. The patron Sai t of my hometown here in Italy was roasted to death at the age of 19 because he would not re ounce his faith. But I didn't join to talk about the catholic church. I'm tryi g to understand why it's brought up all the time. Can't write on this phone,,,! Sorry.
  2. Why is there such an interest in the catholic church? I, personally, don't care what the catholic church teaches.
  3. I entered here in the middle of a conversation... I can't go back and retrace what JLB and you have been discussing. I read his last couple of posts and they sound correct. So, what I'm asking is: WHAT is the Catholic churches' apostate teaching? (in contrast to protestant soteriology) I went quickly through 1 Corinthians 3,,,but not knowing the question... I really cannot know what is being spoken of.... A sinning believer cannot enter into heaven... Of course we would have to define what a sinning believer is....
  4. I happen to know how Catholics teach about batpism. I wanted to know what you believed,,,but it's OK. See you around for other stuff!
  5. Sorry. I thought we were discussing being saved by faith only. I must have misunderstood you. Without going back to check,,,I'll just post some ECFs that say we can become lost by NOT doing good works. The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. . . . He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works. Barnabas (c. 70-130), 1.148, 149. Therefore, brethren, by doing the will of the Father, and keeping the flesh holy, and observing the commandments of the Lord, we will obtain eternal life. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.519. We . . . hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that those who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. . . . Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.165, 166. We will give account to God not only of deeds (as slaves), but even of words and thoughts (as being those who have truly received the power of liberty). For under liberty, a man is more severely tested as to whether he will reverence, fear, and love the Lord. . . . God desires obedience, which renders [His worshippers] secure—rather than sacrifices and burnt-offerings, which avail men nothing toward righteousness. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.482. When we hear, "Your faith has saved you," we do not understand Him to say absolutely that those who have believed in any way whatsoever will be saved. For works must also follow. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195), 2.505. “Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” (Didache, A.D.140)
  6. I'm not sure what scripture hopping is. If it's that you post a scripture and then I post a scripture back...well, I don't like that either. If you post a verse I intend to exegete it and then you could do the same. We won't be changing any minds here....but conversation is interesting. I'm not sure what Aminianism believes...that would be Arminius....I just have been reading the bible for a really long time and have attended two different churches and have learned a lot from them,,,and even on these forums. I do hope that we have a fresh start....
  7. What does the catholic church have to do with what is being discussed? We could align with the catholic church or at times a different church,,,the important question is ,,,do we align with the N.T. ? What is @JLB saying that does NOT align with scripture??
  8. You probably won't want to discuss the scripture with me since you said you know me from another site and I doubt I treated you badly, but I'm sorry you feel this way anyhow. I'm going to post a little bit because it's 12:43 a.m. here. I always put the source with links, so you could look it up yourself... Just google....Early church fathers beliefs about works... I understand the ECFs to be pre-Nicene creed.... pre 325 AD. The Didache was probably written in about 90 AD. It's very interesting to read if you haven't ever done so. Just google didache. (the teachings of the Apostles) Here are some writings on works: 1st Letter to the Corinthians 34:1-2 The good laborer receives the bread of his labor with confidence; the lazy and careless one does not look his employer in the face. We must, therefore, be zealous in doing good; for all things are from Him (God). Ignatius of Antioch (? - 102? A.D.) [Ignatius of antioch learned from John] Letter to Polycarp, 6 Toil and train together, run and suffer together, rest and rise at the same time, as God�s stewards, assistants and servants. Didache (before 120 A.D.) (authorship unknown) Didache 12:3-5 But, if he wishes to settle among you and is a craftsman, let him work and eat. But if he has no trade, provide according to your conscience, so that no Christian shall live among you idle. But if he does not agree to do this, he is trading on the name of Christ; beware of such men. Epistle of Barnabas (100-120 A.D) Epistle of Barnabas LIX, 10 Remember the day of Judgment day and night, and seek each day the company of the saints, either laboring by speech, and going out to exhort, and striving to save souls by the word or working with you hands for the ransom for your sins. Clement of Alexandria (c.125 A.D.) (A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, ed., The Ante Nicene Fathers: Translation of the Writings of the Fathers Down to 325Grand Rapids:Erdmans, 1977) The Instructor (Paedagogus)3:10 It is respectable for a man to draw water himself, and to cut billets of wood which hi is to use himself. The Salvation of the Rich Man or Who is the Rich Man that Shall be Saved, 16 (The Pure soul -- or truly rich man) is ever laboring at some good work and divine work; even though he be necessarily sometime or other deprived of them (possessions) is able with cheerful mind to bear their removal equally with their abundance. source: https://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~zablocki/earlfath.html
  9. @Faber gave you a very good source. All ECFs believed in Faith alone.... but only in the sense that FAITH ALONE SAVES. We are Justified by faith alone. It ends there. Then they do speak of works and this would be sanctification. They go so far as to say that if we do not do good works/deeds we will become lost...our very salvation is in danger. James does say that faith without works is dead. James 2:17, 20
  10. (it happened again....clicked on QUOTE and it did NOT go to this page; I had to look for it) I understand what you mean by the above. What the CC will tell you is that revelation is ongoing but doctrine cannot be changed. Now, to ME this seems like doctrine (about unbaptized babies)...but what do I know? Please remember that I'm not catholic but only know the doctrine. I also believe in the sin nature...I just don't believe in total depravity.... Total depravity means there is NO good in man...how do you explain that even atheists do good deeds? Just to make clear that I do not discuss biblical matters with emotion but with the knowledge that I have. I'd be lying to say that I NEVER get emotional,,,but it's very rare and usually about how another member is reacting to me. God is omniscient God is just I can glorify God if I see this justice, mercy and love in Him... If I cannot see it -- I don't need to wait till judgement day....I'd stop having respect for Him right now. As to the infant Hitler....I see your point. What you're saying is that the infant would not have committed any sins yet,,,but would have if he'd grown to adulthood. This is an interesting question and one I haven't thought of. The question really is: Does God see only to the point of history,,,or does He go beyond it? IOW,,, Does He see only to the BIRTH of this infant Hitler,,,or does He actually take the infant's history beyond the birth and then his death? I'm going to have to digest this a minute and think about it. I'm not sure this question could have an answer. I do understand that you've come to have an answer.... I think there's a thread about this on another site...wish I could remember where. God is the perfect judge...but it has to be based on HIS attributes: Goodness Mercy Justice You keep speaking about justice, but what about His mercy and His love? I could post many verses...I don't think you need them. Also, you're speaking about semi-pelagianism....I go by scripture,,,I'm not very familiar with all these persons you bring up. Here's how I understand it: We are born with the effects of the fall....the "sin nature" some call it the flesh. We are not born with any personally imputed sin. Before Augustine,,,,adults were baptized for the forgiveness of sins up till that point. Babies were baptized so as to not let them miss out on the privilege of becoming members of the Christian family. I could get you proof of this, but too busy right now. It comes from the ECFs. Augustine changed these beliefs. AFTER Augustine and his Original Sin theories....it became NECESSARY for infants to be baptized. I don't agree with this...I agree with the ECFs. They had it right...NOT Augustine. Persons are born with the sin nature....not a depraved nature ...depraved means they have no good in them at all. Persons are not. thus, born innocent. When we're born we're lost and are going to hell. We have to repent and go the other way toward God. This happens, however, at the age of reason. NOT when we're infants or children. Jesus said Suffer the children to come to me....And that the Kingdom of God is such as these.....why would He have said that if some of them were lost? Mathew 19:14 Oh yes. God is sovereign. God will have HIS way... But that does not take away our free will. I FOUND IT!!! (but I don't know how....)
  11. I just lost my whole reply to you!! How do I get it back?
  12. I have to get back to this because it's very serious and I have to get dinner going!!! What could be more serious than that???? LOL Will be back in a bit....
  13. @William That was 7 pages! Also, sometimes when I click on QUOTE the page does not come up. I thought it might be me, but I don't think so.... You might want to look into this. Also, the B, I, U should be more accessible. I know how but can't explain it right now....just quick...there should be TWO up and down bars to the extreme right. One for the entire thread....and one just for the current post the member is using. Also, color should be in there in order to highlight. Just suggestions,,,I'm not complaining.
  14. Very good link,,,but too much. I'll copy it and then read it on paper. I very much like what Calvin has to say,,,I have stated that I think he was one of the best thinkers...I just dislike how he changed the nature of God. Anyway,,, I also found this interesting: Charles Hodge writes: “Conversion is “a change of heart and life from sin to holiness.” ” To the heathen and infidel conversion is absolutely and always necessary to salvation.” To the baptized Christian conversion is not always necessary.” Some persons have confused conversion with regeneration, and have taught that all men, the baptized, and therefore in fact regenerate, must be regenerated afterwards, or they cannot be saved. Now this is in many ways false : for regeneration, which the Lord Jesus Christ himself has connected with holy baptism, cannot be repeated : moreover, not all men (though indeed most men do) fall into such sin after baptism, that conversion, or as they tel-m i t , regeneration, is necessary to their salvation ; and if a regeneration were necessary to them, it could only be obtained through repetition of baptism, which were an act of sacrilege.” Could you please explain to me what the underlined means? (why do I have to go all the way back to the top to bold, italicize, or underline??)
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