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Dave L

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  1. I just joined this group and hate to see you go. But if I say "I hate to see you go", who am I speaking to? If I say "You" in the second person plural,it applies only to you or any friends you might have with you. As in the case of Jesus' audience, the disciples, whom he addressed using second person plural.
  2. If you consider the disciples being his present audience, because "when you see" or "then if anyone says to you" are in the second person plural. Plus, they left town when they saw it happening which means they interpreted Jesus in this way. If you consider the great Jewish Tribulation (well past) is not the same as the tribulation of the Church (the entire New Covenant era), it is pretty understandable.
  3. We still have the disciples as the audience he spoke to about this, not people thousands of years into the future. They would see it in their lifetimes. Does God own all the cattle in the world or just those on a thousand hills?
  4. Jesus says the kingdom comes without observation and unless one is born again they cannot see it, much less enter it. You have a paradox on your hands that twisting scripture will not fix.
  5. “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2) (KJV 1900) I don't think Jesus is waiting for glorification. But we will be like him in the resurrection. Which poses a problem for physical kingdom aficionados. Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, only saints in glorified bodies with be there for Satan to molest and bring against the other saints when loosed.
  6. "Both the chapter 19 battle and the chapter 20 battle seem to rely heavily on the prophecies in Ezekiel as a background text. I conclude, therefore, that the battles depicted in 19:11-21 and in 20:7-10 are in fact one and the same battle: a once more cataclysmic shaking of the earth at the end of the age. Given, therefore, the incongruity between the end of 19 and the start of 20, it seems best not to read the visions in 20 as a chronological continuation of the ones in 19. And given the congruence between the two battles, it therefore seems best to see the visions in chapter 20 as a re-framing and recapitulation of the visions that precede it." Soldarnal How do Revelation 19 and 20 relate to one another? HERMENEUTICS.STACKEXCHANGE.COM I know some people think that the visions in Revelation 20 are a chronological continuation of the one at the end of chapter 19, while others think that the visions in chapter 20 are a re-framing...
  7. This assumes 19 and 20 are connected. And nowhere do we find a physical kingdom in the NT. It is spiritual.
  8. “The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.” (Jeremiah 18:1–10) (KJV 1900) On the surface it seems people can determine God's course in matters. But in another way of looking at it, if the people repent, it means God determined not destroy them. Romans 9 suggests a supralapsarian view of people being arbitrarily predestined to sin or grace irrespective of their individuality.
  9. But Jesus tells his disciples not one stone will be left on top of another. And this happened in their immediate future, not thousands of years into the future.
  10. Revelation 20 says nothing about a physical kingdom. And the rest of the NT says the kingdom is spiritual. So do we add to Revelation by making the kingdom physical?
  11. Even so, the kingdom is spiritual according to Jesus and not of this world.
  12. I think the fact that Jesus' return marks the beginning of a kingdom that remains for 1000 years and not eternally causes problems.
  13. Thanks for taking time for this. I can now rule this out.
  14. Thanks, this is what I'm looking for. How does this relate to the audience then present? Does it mean they will live to see the Abomination of Desolation? Does it apply to Antiochus in the original Abomination of Desolation in 167 BC? How do you understand the passage?
  15. It still begins when he returns does it not?
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