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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Innerfire89

1 Corinthians 13:8-10. What is the perfect that is to come?

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1Corinthians 13:8

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tounges, they shall they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

So what is the "perfect"?

It could be the return of Christ, or it could be the completion of the the Bible and/or the maturing of the early Church.

 

Perfect can mean percfet, flawless, lacking absolutely nothing. Or it can mean mature.

1Corinthians 2:6

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are prefect: yet not wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought.

 

Cleary "perfect" means mature in this verse, so why not in 1Corinthians 13:8-10?

Notice that Paul continues to talk about wisdom in the next verses.

 

1Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child I talked like a child, I understood like a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

Stay strong in Christ and be blessed.

 

 

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Just dropping additional resources or similar threads:

 

 

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scripture says the gifts expired with the coming (revelation) of Jesus in the ad 90s. Here's how it works.

 

Paul says; “so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:7–9)

 

Notice, when Jesus is revealed he will also confirm us to the end, placing his revelation before the end of the world. So this Revelation is not at the end of the world as many say.

 

When did the Revelation come? It came through Apostle John;

 

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)

 

John uses the same Greek word as Paul speaking of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

602. ἀποκάλυψις apŏkalupsis, ap-ok-al´-oop-sis; from 601; disclosure:—appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

 

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 14).

 

So John's book of Revelation is the same revelation Paul spoke of. Telling believers to come behind in any gift until then.

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On 11/13/2018 at 8:10 AM, Dave L said:

Notice, when Jesus is revealed he will also confirm us to the end, placing his revelation before the end of the world. So this Revelation is not at the end of the world as many say.

I don't agree with this. I don't think that there is any indication that the revelation Paul speaks of is the writing John would submit a few years later.

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8 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

I don't agree with this. I don't think that there is any indication that the revelation Paul speaks of is the writing John would submit a few years later.

I agree. I think it requires a lot of extra explanation to interpret it that way.

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10 hours ago, hanna said:

 

 

On 8/7/2018 at 10:56 PM, Innerfire89 said:

1Corinthians 13:8

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tounges, they shall they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

So what is the "perfect"?

It could be the return of Christ, or it could be the completion of the the Bible and/or the maturing of the early Church.

 

Perfect can mean percfet, flawless, lacking absolutely nothing. Or it can mean mature.

1Corinthians 2:6

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are prefect: yet not wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought.

 

Cleary "perfect" means mature in this verse, so why not in 1Corinthians 13:8-10?

Notice that Paul continues to talk about wisdom in the next verses.

 

1Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child I talked like a child, I understood like a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

Stay strong in Christ and be blessed.

 

 

'But when that which is perfect is come,

then that which is in part shall be done away. 

When I was a child, I spake as a child,

I understood as a child,

I thought as a child:

but when I became a man,

I put away childish things.'
(1 Corinthians 13:10-11)  

 

Hi there @Innerfire89,

 

Good question.

 

As you say, 'perfection' refers to maturity or 'full-growth'. The verses (above) indicate that tongue speaking and 'spiritual gifts' are a mark of spiritual babyhood. Paul gives the illustration of his own personal experience of childhood into manhood. The things that were necessary for him as an infant have now been put away, He is now well on the way to full growth (Phil. 3:12-14):-

 

'Not as though I had already attained,

either were already perfect:

but I follow after,

if that I may apprehend

that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:

but this one thing I do,

forgetting those things which are behind,

and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark

for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
(Philippians 3:12-14) 

 

* He now walks by faith and not by sight or sense.  He can now come into the same category of blessing which the risen Lord indicated to Thomas, so limited by his sense experience: 'Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed' (John 20:29).

 

These gifts then are not necessary to spiritual maturity. This maturity is a reflection of the complete perfection of the glorified state in resurrection.

 

Praise God!

 

Thank you, 

In Christ Jesus

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by C.Jord

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Convoluted explanations of how the gifts ceased? The Holy Spirit did not cease to gift His people with spiritual gifts.

Of His kingdom there will be no end.

There is only Christ and His words, there is not timeout.

John 7

37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 

38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[c] 

39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

40 On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.”

41 Others said, “He is the Messiah.”

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 The above passages teach that the Holy Spirit would be given, but it doesn't address whether or not there will or won't be a cessation of gifts.

 

 1. John 7:39 teaches that during the New Testament Church era the Holy Spirit would "enter into and become the life of the believer, producing in him the life of Jesus” (S. H. Hooke, NTS, 9, July, 1963, page 380). 
 2.  A. T. Robertson: John, writing at the close of the century, inserts this comment and interpretation of the language of Jesus as an allusion to the coming of the Holy Spirit at pentecost (the Promise of the Father) (Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament, John 7:39).
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/john-7.html

 

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9 hours ago, Faber said:

 The above passages teach that the Holy Spirit would be given, but it doesn't address whether or not there will or won't be a cessation of gifts.

 

 1. John 7:39 teaches that during the New Testament Church era the Holy Spirit would "enter into and become the life of the believer, producing in him the life of Jesus” (S. H. Hooke, NTS, 9, July, 1963, page 380). 
 2.  A. T. Robertson: John, writing at the close of the century, inserts this comment and interpretation of the language of Jesus as an allusion to the coming of the Holy Spirit at pentecost (the Promise of the Father) (Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament, John 7:39).
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/john-7.html

 

Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.

All spiritual gifts are meant to build up the body of Christ, They flow out from within the believer.

For this to cease means the Holy Spirit is no longer being given to believers.

God chooses which gifts to give. Not everyone has some gifts but all have several gifts.

 

Paul says the gifts are a part of being the body of Christ, your place in the body is vitally important to the whole body, without you, the body is not complete.

That river of living water is what forms and holds the body together.

The gifts don't cease, otherwise there would be no body anymore. Till Christ returns, there will be a body of Christ on earth which is us.

So when Paul writes of prophesying ceasing, etc.., this is when Christ returns, At His second coming there will no longer be a need for the manifestation of the Holy Spirit gifts, cause He has come back.

 

1 Corinthians 12

12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.

13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

 

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?

30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

 

 

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2 hours ago, sdowney717 said:

Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.

All spiritual gifts are meant to build up the body of Christ, They flow out from within the believer.

For this to cease means the Holy Spirit is no longer being given to believers.

God chooses which gifts to give. Not everyone has some gifts but all have several gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:13 refers to being baptized with the Holy Spirit upon conversion. 

Living water is the Holy Spirit.

 

 1. Does the gift of raising people from the dead still exist today (Acts 9:36-42)?

 2. Does the gift of having one' shadow fall on people to heal them still exist today (Acts 5:15)?

 3. Does the gift of healing exist today in that handerkerchiefs and aprons from one's body can be used to heal other people (Acts 19:12)?

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5 hours ago, Faber said:

1 Corinthians 12:13 refers to being baptized with the Holy Spirit upon conversion. 

Living water is the Holy Spirit.

 

 1. Does the gift of raising people from the dead still exist today (Acts 9:36-42)?

 2. Does the gift of having one' shadow fall on people to heal them still exist today (Acts 5:15)?

 3. Does the gift of healing exist today in that handerkerchiefs and aprons from one's body can be used to heal other people (Acts 19:12)?

They exist only if God gives out to a person those gifts.

I think you miss the point here, spiritual gifts don't go away or cease, they are just not in evidence or exercised.

God gives to each severally (gifts) as He chooses. Maybe today He just has not chosen to give a certain gift, but He could.

It seems some people assume there are no more spiritual gifts, but this is impossible as that invalidates Christs's words about the Holy Spirit.

A person always has a choice about spiritual gifts, they can be not used-ignored.

Scripture says to quench not the Spirit, which means a person can quench the Spirit, and this is refering to spiritual gifts.

 

 

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Just think it is important to point out that the "cessationist" position is not being correctly represented here. The argument is not whether "Spiritual Gifts" have ceased, but whether "certain" spiritual gifts namely those to do with the revelatory process have indeed ceased. Post number 2 includes a link to another thread on this very topic where the cessationist view is made.

 

On a different note I couldn't help but see a close but different position by @C.Jord. The main difference being between an individual vs the church and her maturity.

 

God bless,

William

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21 hours ago, sdowney717 said:

Convoluted explanations of how the gifts ceased? The Holy Spirit did not cease to gift His people with spiritual gifts.

Of His kingdom there will be no end.

There is only Christ and His words, there is not timeout.

John 7

37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 

38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[c] 

39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

40 On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.”

41 Others said, “He is the Messiah.”

Rivers of living water John 7:37-39 and other descriptive language such as springs, welling up etc John 4:14 indicates divine activity. Rivers of living water is an allusion, in my mind, to Ezekiel's Temple.

 

In John 7:39 the argument isn't whether eternal life was or is now the present "spiritual gift" but in the sense of when the Holy Spirit was not yet John 16:13. Jesus declared the condition of the gift by which the Lord must go to the Father John 16:7-10. The work and Person of the Spirit are spoken of throughout the OT and the Spirit was ceaselessly working, but not until the atonement was made, till the condition the Lord declared (ascension) were the streams of living water ready to flow from every heart which receives the divine gift. 

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10 hours ago, Faber said:

 

 

The chapter on spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12) is intimately tied into the very nature of the body of Christ. If you notice Paul is teaching  in that same chapter about how the spiritual gifts, form,  grow and edify the body of Christ. Without spiritual gifts there would be no life and no body of Christ on earth, because everything is of God and God works in supernaturally divine ways beyond our ability to comprehend to give life to that which is dead. If you are a member of the body of Christ then you have received spiritual gifts. Do all have 'gifts of healing' NO, or Tongues? NO, but there are so many other gifts and we are taught to eagerly desire the greater gifts. Which the greatest is the gift of loving.

 

1 Corinthians 12

12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body.16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body.17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty,24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it,25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

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 I agree that each Christian has at least one spiritual gift (1 Peter 4:10), but I question whether the ones I listed in my previous post are still given.

2 hours ago, William said:

The argument is not whether "Spiritual Gifts" have ceased, but whether "certain" spiritual gifts namely those to do with the revelatory process have indeed ceased. 

 This is the heart of the matter.

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Staff

1Co 13:1  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 
1Co 13:2  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 
1Co 13:3  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 
1Co 13:4  Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 
1Co 13:5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 
1Co 13:6  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 
1Co 13:7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 
1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 
1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 
1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 
1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 
1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 
1Co 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. 

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Staff

All this talk makes me wonder how much power the church would have if we could be 

 

Php 2:2  Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 
Php 2:3  Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves

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4 hours ago, Becky said:

All this talk makes me wonder how much power the church would have if we could be 

 

Php 2:2  Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 
Php 2:3  Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves

Peter touches on this here. The Love you have for each other, will keep you from being ineffective or unproductive. And you will receive a warm welcome from Jesus Christ. Which is something that is good to look forward to. Not everyone is going to receive the same welcome at the judgement seat of Christ. John also confirms that we are to love the brethren who are begotten of Him as it shows our love for God.

 

1 Peter 1

22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 

24 For,

“All people are like grass,
    and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25     but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[c]

And this is the word that was preached to you.

 

2 Peter 1

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind,forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

 

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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