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Matt

Question about Jesus

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Matt

 

I have a question:

 

Numbers 23:19 says "God is not human" & Hosea 11:9 says "For I am God, and not a man" then why we believe that Jesus is God?

 

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atpollard

When attempting to understand scripture, it helps to read it in context.  For pete's sake how about at least reading the whole verse and not just pull the first four words out of context!

 

[Numbers 23:19 NLT] 19 God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

 

So what is the point or message of verse 19 in Numbers 23?  Is the author trying to drive home the point that God is a spirit and not a flesh and blood human being, or is the author attempting to say that God will do what he says he will do.  The message is: People lie, but God does not lie.  People change their mind, but God does not change his mind.  God has always done what he said he would do.  God has always kept his promises.

 

Numbers 23:19 tells us that God does not lie like fallen men do.

Jesus did not lie like fallen men do.

That is one reason why we believe that Jesus is God.

 

[Hosea 11:8-12 NLT]

8 “Oh, how can I give you up, Israel?

How can I let you go?

How can I destroy you like Admah

or demolish you like Zeboiim?

My heart is torn within me,

and my compassion overflows.

9 No, I will not unleash my fierce anger.

I will not completely destroy Israel,

for I am God and not a mere mortal.

I am the Holy One living among you,

and I will not come to destroy.

10 For someday the people will follow me.

I, the LORD, will roar like a lion.

And when I roar,

my people will return trembling from the west.

11 Like a flock of birds, they will come from Egypt.

Trembling like doves, they will return from Assyria.

And I will bring them home again,”

says the LORD.

12 Israel surrounds me with lies and deceit,

but Judah still obeys God

and is faithful to the Holy One.

 

Looking at Hosea 11:9 in context, Israel is "surrounding God with lies and deceit" (v.12) and the heart of God is torn between his "fierce anger" (v.9) wanting to punish the evil and his "compassion" (v.8) for the people that he loves.  In verse 9 God states that a fallen man (we are all born under Adam's curse) would choose anger over compassion, but God "will not come to destroy". 

Jesus said:

  • [Luke 13:34 NLT] 34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

John said this about Jesus:

  • [John 3:17 NLT] 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

Since the same non-fallen character found in God in Hosea 11 is found in Jesus, we believe that Jesus is God.

 

Edited by atpollard
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Faber
On 6/29/2018 at 9:31 PM, atpollard said:

The message is: People lie, but God does not lie.

 

 Spot on post atpollard.

 

 

The 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia: He is not, like man, subject to whim (Numbers 23:19 Deuteronomy 7:9). He is the Judge, searching the innermost parts of man's being, and knowing all his secrets (Jeremiah 16:17, 17:10, 23:24 Psalm 139:1-4). (God, see the 4th paragraph)

https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/tje/g/god.html

 I think it is interesting that Numbers 23:19 is used in association by the Jews in teaching that God is not subject to whim because He has the perfect ability of knowing the totality of human hearts, and yet the Lord Jesus possesses this same omniscience.

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/5196-kardiognōstēs-does-it-mean-omniscient/

 

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Matt

If Jesus is our God then why didn't he order us to worship him?

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atpollard
35 minutes ago, Matt said:

[SINCE] Jesus is our God then why didn't he order us to worship him?

[I fixed that question for you.]  :classic_smile:

 

One reason is he didn't need to ORDER it.

  • [Mat 2:2 NASB] 2 "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."
  • [Luk 18:19 NASB] 19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
  • [Jhn 20:28 NASB] 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

 

 

It was also part of the Father's plan, that Jesus would humble himself and the Father would exalt Him.

  • [Mar 10:45 NASB] 45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
  • [Phl 2:5-11 NASB] 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, [and] being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

 

However Jesus left no doubt that he IS GOD:

  • [Mat 1:18-25 NASB] 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." 22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US." 24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took [Mary] as his wife, 25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
  • [Jhn 1:1-5, 14 NASB] 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. ... 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
  • [Jhn 8:58-59 NASB] 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
  • [Jhn 10:24-33 NASB] 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out [to be] God."
  • [Jhn 14:7-11 NASB] 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and [yet] you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how [can] you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

 

 

One day Jesus (the Lamb of God) will receive His due worship:

  • [Rev 5:1-14 NASB] 1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I [began] to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals." 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood [men] from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them [to be] a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." 13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, [be] blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." 14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
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Origen
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1 hour ago, Matt said:

If Jesus is our God then why didn't he order us to worship him?

A better question might be why did Jesus allow others to worship Him if he wasn't God?

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th1bill

Matt.

You're original question has been correctly answered and you followed, not with a pertenant question a Christian a Christian might ask if they were thoughtfully meditating on the scriptures.  For this reason you are an Infant Christian, a Babe in Christ, a Lost Man or you like to hide behind your keyboard and start confusion. 

 

Any Seasoned Christian knows that YHWH (God) does not want robots that will fall on their faces in mechanical, worship-like, motions.  YHWH, Yashuah ha'Mashiah, and the Ruah love the descendants of the creation called Adam (Man).  He expects His love to be reciprocal and that requires Free Will and nothing less.  Without Complete Submissive Submission there can be no love and robots, that are commandable, have not feelings and love or returning love is emotion and nothing less.

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Matt

I have doubts in my mind..that's why I am asking questions!

 

Someone told me: "Sun reflects its light on Moon & it shines otherwise Moon has no light. Sun is the source of life on earth but we can't say this about Moon. In a same way, God Almighty gave miracles to Jesus but it doesn't mean that we start to call him God Almighty"

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Placable37

Hi again Matto, The Jews were struggling with Jesus on a number of issues and then He hits them with this:

John 8:54-58
(54)  Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honours me; of whom you say, that he is your God:
(55)  Yet you have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
(56)  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
(57)  
Then said the Jews unto him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
(58)  
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

I'm happy to include this list for further comment:

Biblical Names of God

Advocate - 1 John 2:1

Almighty - Revelation 1:8

Alpha - Revelation 1:8

Amen - Revelation 3:14

Angel of the Lord - Genesis 16:7

Anointed One - Psalm 2:2

Apostle - Hebrews 3:1

Author and Perfecter of our Faith - Hebrews 12:2

Beginning - Revelation 21:6

Bishop of Souls - 1 Peter 2:25

Branch - Zechariah 3:8

Bread of Life - John 6:35,48

Bridegroom - Matthew 9:15

Carpenter - Mark 6:3

Chief Shepherd - 1 Peter 5:4

The Christ - Matthew 1:16

Comforter - Jeremiah 8:18

Consolation of Israel - Luke 2:25

Cornerstone - Ephesians 2:20

Dayspring - Luke 1:78

Day Star - 2 Peter 1:19

Deliverer - Romans 11:26

Desire of Nations - Haggai 2:7

Emmanuel - Matthew 1:23

End - Revelation 21:6

Everlasting Father - Isaiah 9:6

Faithful and True Witness - Revelation 3:14

First Fruits - 1 Corinthians 15:23

Foundation - Isaiah 28:16

Fountain - Zechariah 13:1

Friend of Sinners - Matthew 11:19

Gate for the Sheep - John 10:7

Gift of God - 2 Corinthians 9:15

God - John 1:1

Glory of God - Isaiah 60:1

Good Shepherd - John 10:11

Governor - Matthew 2:6

Great Shepherd - Hebrews 13:20

Guide - Psalm 48:14

Head of the Church - Colossians 1:18

High Priest - Hebrews 3:1

Holy One of Israel - Isaiah 41:14

Horn of Salvation - Luke 1:69

I Am - Exodus 3:14

Jehovah - Psalm 83:18

Jesus - Matthew 1:21

King of Israel - Matthew 27:42

King of Kings - 1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 19:16

Lamb of God - John 1:29

Last Adam - 1 Corinthians 15:45

Life - John 11:25

Light of the World - John 8:12; John 9:5

Lion of the Tribe of Judah - Revelation 5:5

Lord of Lords - 1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 19:16

Love - 1 John 4:8

Master - Matthew 23:8

Mediator - 1 Timothy 2:5

Messiah - John 1:41

Mighty God - Isaiah 9:6

Morning Star - Revelation 22:16

Nazarene - Matthew 2:23

Omega - Revelation 1:8

Passover Lamb - 1 Corinthians 5:7

Physician - Matthew 9:12

Potentate - 1 Timothy 6:15

Priest - Hebrews 4:15

Prince of Peace - Isaiah 9:6

Prophet - Acts 3:22

Purifier - Malachi 3:3

Rabbi - John 1:49

Ransom - 1 Timothy 2:6

Redeemer - Isaiah 41:14

Refiner - Malachi 3:2

Refuge - Isaiah 25:4

Resurrection - John 11:25

Righteousness - Jeremiah 23:6

Rock - Deuteronomy 32:4

Root of David - Revelation 22:16

Rose of Sharon - Song of Solomon 2:1

Ruler of God's Creation - Revelation 3:14

Sacrifice - Ephesians 5:2

Savior - 2 Samuel 22:47; Luke 1:47

Second Adam - 1 Corinthians 15:47

Seed of Abraham - Galatians 3:16

Seed of David - 2 Timothy 2:8

Seed of the Woman - Genesis 3:15

Servant - Isaiah 42:1

Shepherd - 1 Peter 2:25

Shiloh - Genesis 49:10

Son of David - Matthew 15:22

Son of God - Luke 1:35

Son of Man - Matthew 18:11

Son of Mary - Mark 6:3

Son of the Most High - Luke 1:32

Stone - Isaiah 28:16

Sun of Righteousness - Malachi 4:2

Teacher - Matthew 26:18

Truth - John 14:6

Way - John 14:6

Wonderful Counselor - Isaiah 9:6

Word - John 1:1

Vine - John 15:1

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Faber
15 hours ago, Matt said:

If Jesus is our God then why didn't he order us to worship him?

Hello Matt,

 

 To answer your question please see John 5:23 and John 14:14 where these passages do teach that the Lord Jesus commanded us to worship Him.

 

 

John 5:23

so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (NASB)

     1. D. A. Carson: The reason why the Father has entrusted all judgment to the Son is now disclosed: it is so that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whatever functional subordination may be stressed in this section, it guarantees, as we have seen, that the Son does everything that the Father does (cf. notes on vv. 19-20); and now Jesus declares that its purpose is that the Son may be at one with the Father not only in activity but in honour. This goes far beyond making Jesus a mere ambassador who acts in the name of the monarch who sent him, an envoy plenipotentiary whose derived authority is the equivalent of his master’s. That analogue breaks down precisely here, for the honour given to an envoy is never that given to the head of state. The Jews were right in detecting that Jesus was ‘making himself equal with God’ (vv. 17-18). But this does not diminish God. Indeed, the glorification of the Son is precisely what glorifies the Father (cf. notes on 12:28), just as in Philippians 2:9-11, where at the name of Jesus every knew bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord, and all this to the glory of God the Father. Because of the unique relation between the Father and the Son, the God who declares ‘I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another’ (Is. 42:8; cf. Is. 48:11) is not compromised or diminished when divine honours crown the head of the Son. Granted that the purpose of the Father is that all should honour the Son, it is but a small step to Jesus’ conclusion: He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him. In a theistic universe, such a statement belongs to one who is himself to be addressed as God (cf. 20:28), or to stark insanity. The one who utters such things is to be dismissed with pity or scorn, or worshiped as Lord. If with much current scholarship we retreat to seeing in such material less the claims of the Son than the beliefs and witness of the Evangelist and his church, the same options confront us. Either John is supremely deluded and must be dismissed as a fool, or his witness is true and Jesus is to ascribed honours due God alone. There is no rational middle ground (The Gospel According to John, page 254-255).
     2. A. T. Robertson: Jesus claims here the same right to worship from men that the Father has. Dishonoring Jesus is dishonoring the Father who sent him (8:49; 12:26; 15:23; 1 John 2:23). See also Luke 10:16. There is small comfort here for those who praise Jesus as teacher and yet deny his claims to worship.

John 5 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

 

John 14:14

If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. (NASB)
      1. Hans Bietenhard: The unity of the Son with the Father finds expressions in the fact that prayer in the name of Jesus can be directed to either Father or Son (TDNT 5:276, onoma).
      2. Robert Reymond: Jesus declared that he will answer the prayers of his disciples (John 14:13), but equally significant for our purpose, he represents himself as One to whom prayers may properly be addressed. In verse 14, Jesus stated again that he himself will answer his disciples' prayers - surely an implicit claim to deity since one would have to be divine to hear, in all the languages of the world, the myriads of prayers being offered up to him at any one moment and then wisely to answer each prayer (A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, pages 232-233).
     3. Nick Norelli supplies many more citations as found here:
https://rdtwot.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/hear-o-lord-praying-to-jesus-–-a-survey-of-commentaries-on-john-1414/

 

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Placable37

Ever looked at these Hebrew names from the Bible? They are Absolutely Awesome!

Yahweh
The self-existent One. He has always existed and will always exist. You can always rely on Him because He is your eternal source of strength.
(Genesis 2:4, Isaiah 40:3; 10; 1 Samuel 1:20; Exodus 6:1-4, 3:1-22)

Adonai
God is the Lord over all. He is the King of kings and the Lord of lords, He reigns forever. Therefor you find safety in Him and Him alone.
(Genesis 15:2, Judges 6:15, Malachi 1:6, Deuteronomy 10:17; Psalm 2:4, 8:1, 97:5, 136:3; Isaiah 1:24, 6:1; Romans 10:9)

Yahweh-Maccaddeshem
The Lord your sanctifier. He forgiveness your sins and His Holy Spirit works in your life to become like He is: pure, loving and true.
(Exodus 31:13, Leviticus 20:8; Ezekiel 37:28)

Yahweh-Rohi
The Lord my shepherd. He cares for you, the way a shepherd tends his sheep. He cares for you and leads you to still waters and green pastures.
(Psalm 23:1-6, 80:1, 95:7, Isaiah 40:11, Jeremiah 31:10, Ezekiel 34:12, 23)

Yahweh-Shammah
The Lord who is present. He never leaves you, nor forsakes you. He is with you forever. Your best friend, who never betrays you.
(Ezekiel 48:35, Genesis 28:15, Ezekiel 48:35, Psalm 23:4, 46:1, 139:7-12, Jeremiah 23:23-24, Amos 5:14)

Yahweh-Rapha
The Lord our healer. “By His stripes were are healed” declares the Bible. Jesus Christ died to give you life. Not only was God the healer in the Old Testament, but Jesus Christ revealed the healing heart of God for all of us, more than ever.
(Exodus 15:26, Exodus 15:26, 2 Chronicles 7:14, Psalm 6:2, 41:4, 103:3, 147:3, Isaiah 19:22, 30:36, 57:18-19, Jeremiah 3:22; 17:14, 30:17)

Yahweh-Tsidkenu
The Lord our righteousness. When we believe in Jesus Christ, He becomes our righteousness. He forgives our sins and washes us with His blood.
(Jeremiah 23:6, Genesis 15:6, Jeremiah 23:6, Psalm 4:1, 5:8, 24:5, 31:1, 36:10, 71:15, 89:16)

Yahweh-Jireh
The Lord will provide. Jesus Christ said that Father cares for us and we never need to worry about provision. He is our source of life, in every way.
(Genesis 22:13-14)

Yahweh-Nissi
The Lord our banner. The Lord gives us the victory in spiritual warfare. When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Lord raises a banner of His love over us and covers us. He wages war on our behalf and makes us more than conquerors in Christ Jesus.
(Exodus 17:15)

Yahweh-Shalom
The Lord is peace. Whenever there are storms in your life, hide in Him. He is your shelter in the storm. He gives peace beyond understanding, even when circumstances are chaotic. He is our shelter and our shield. 
(Judges 6:24)

Yahweh-Sabbaoth
The Lord of Hosts. The Bible mentions myriads of angels, who wage war against the armies of hell, who try to destroy mankind. Jesus Christ is the Lord of hosts, the Captain of the armies of heaven. 
(Isaiah 6:1-3, 1 Samuel 1:3, 17:45; 2 Samuel 6:2, 7:26-27; 1 Chronicles 11:9; Haggai 1:5)

Yahweh-Ghmolah
The God of Recompense. The Lord says in Romans 12 “vengeance is mine, I will repay.” We should never avenge others for what they do to us, but leave it in God’s hands.
(Jeremiah 51:6)

Elohim
God is creator, powerful and mighty, Lord of lords. He is the Lord Most High, stronger and mightier than anyone or anything. When you face impossible circumstances or adversaries, now that your God is stronger.
(Gen. 1:1, 17:7, Ps 19:1 Jer. 31:33)

El-Elyon
The most high God. Do not fear the enemy who tries to intimidate you. Know that your God is the Most High God. There is none above Him. Jesus Christ is exalted high above every name.
(Genesis 14:17-20, Deuteronomy 26:19, Isaiah 14:13-14)

El-Gibhor
Mighty God. The Lord is mighty to save. His arm is not too short. Whatever problem you are facing, know that your God is El-Gibhor, MIGHTY!
(Isaiah 9:6)

El-Olam
The everlasting God. God is eternal, while your problems are temporary. His love will never change. His promises are true. Build on Him, who is eternal and do not focus on your temporary situations. He will show you His great and eternal goodness.
(Isaiah 40:28-31)

El-Roi
The strong one who sees. When you feel lonely and abandoned by people, know that God is with you. He sees you and He knows you. He hears the cry of your heart and He loves you more than you can imagine. he will lead you through and fill your hear with His praise.
(Genesis 16:13)

El-Shaddai-Rohi
God Almighty, the mighty One of Jacob. God is not just another ‘god’ like the countless idols. He truly is the Almighty Creator of heaven and earth.
(Gen. 17:1, 49:24, Ps. 91:1, 132:2, 5)

El-Chuwl
The God who gave birth. God is our Creator and our Father. He saw us and He loved us, even before we were born. He has a plan for your life and if you walk with Him, He will fulfill His dreams over your life and amaze you.
(Psalm 139:13-18)

El-Deah
God of knowledge. Wisdom comes from the Lord. Man tries to become wise apart from God, ut ends up in foolishness. When we fear God and keep His commandments, to love one another, we will know Him as He is and His wisdom will guide us.
(1 Samuel 2:3; Romans 11:33-36; 1 Cor. 1:18-31)

Attiyq Youm
The Ancient of Days. God is eternal. He was before the beginning of time. Therefor He has all authority. Every knee bows before Him.
(Daniel 7:9, 13, 14)

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NAMES OF GOD - Complete list from Hebrew and the Bible

 

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Faber

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that He should lie,

Nor a son of man, that He should repent;

Has He said, and will He not do it?

Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (NASB)

 

 Sinful men lie. God does not lie. Jesus never lied. Jesus is God.  
1. This proves the Lord Jesus is God. 
2. The 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia: He is not, like man, subject to whim (Numbers 23:19 Deuteronomy 7:9). He is the Judge, searching the innermost parts of man's being, and knowing all his secrets (Jeremiah 16:17, 17:10, 23:24 Psalm 139:1-4). (God)

https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/tje/g/god.html

 Since the Lord Jesus possesses this same omniscience (cf. Revelation 2:23) "He is the Judge" (= God) (Isaiah 11:3-4; John 5:22).

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th1bill
21 hours ago, Matt said:

I have doubts in my mind..that's why I am asking questions!

 

Someone told me: "Sun reflects its light on Moon & it shines otherwise Moon has no light. Sun is the source of life on earth but we can't say this about Moon. In a same way, God Almighty gave miracles to Jesus but it doesn't mean that we start to call him God Almighty"

That is not so.  The New Testament tea ches a Triune God to be our one God.  I'm not going to do the normal dumb thing and fill you up with single verses, that's not scriptural and by jerking scripture out of it's context, just about any point can be ¿proven?  But if you will read through the New Testament four or five times, submitted to the Holy Spirit He will teach you that not only was Jesus God in the flesh of a man but that you need to study the Jewish (Old Testament) Bible also because Jesus is sprinkled throughout the text f it.

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th1bill
8 hours ago, Placable37 said:

Ever looked at these Hebrew names from the Bible? They are Absolutely Awesome!

Yahweh
The self-existent One. He has always existed and will always exist. You can always rely on Him because He is your eternal source of strength.
(Genesis 2:4, Isaiah 40:3; 10; 1 Samuel 1:20; Exodus 6:1-4, 3:1-22)

Adonai
God is the Lord over all. He is the King of kings and the Lord of lords, He reigns forever. Therefor you find safety in Him and Him alone.
(Genesis 15:2, Judges 6:15, Malachi 1:6, Deuteronomy 10:17; Psalm 2:4, 8:1, 97:5, 136:3; Isaiah 1:24, 6:1; Romans 10:9)

Yahweh-Maccaddeshem
The Lord your sanctifier. He forgiveness your sins and His Holy Spirit works in your life to become like He is: pure, loving and true.
(Exodus 31:13, Leviticus 20:8; Ezekiel 37:28)

Yahweh-Rohi
The Lord my shepherd. He cares for you, the way a shepherd tends his sheep. He cares for you and leads you to still waters and green pastures.
(Psalm 23:1-6, 80:1, 95:7, Isaiah 40:11, Jeremiah 31:10Ezekiel 34:12, 23)

Yahweh-Shammah
The Lord who is present. He never leaves you, nor forsakes you. He is with you forever. Your best friend, who never betrays you.
(Ezekiel 48:35, Genesis 28:15, Ezekiel 48:35, Psalm 23:4, 46:1, 139:7-12, Jeremiah 23:23-24, Amos 5:14)

Yahweh-Rapha
The Lord our healer. “By His stripes were are healed” declares the Bible. Jesus Christ died to give you life. Not only was God the healer in the Old Testament, but Jesus Christ revealed the healing heart of God for all of us, more than ever.
(Exodus 15:26, Exodus 15:26, 2 Chronicles 7:14, Psalm 6:2, 41:4, 103:3, 147:3, Isaiah 19:22, 30:36, 57:18-19Jeremiah 3:22; 17:14, 30:17)

Yahweh-Tsidkenu
The Lord our righteousness. When we believe in Jesus Christ, He becomes our righteousness. He forgives our sins and washes us with His blood.
(Jeremiah 23:6, Genesis 15:6, Jeremiah 23:6, Psalm 4:1, 5:8, 24:5, 31:1, 36:10, 71:15, 89:16)

Yahweh-Jireh
The Lord will provide. Jesus Christ said that Father cares for us and we never need to worry about provision. He is our source of life, in every way.
(Genesis 22:13-14)

Yahweh-Nissi
The Lord our banner. The Lord gives us the victory in spiritual warfare. When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Lord raises a banner of His love over us and covers us. He wages war on our behalf and makes us more than conquerors in Christ Jesus.
(Exodus 17:15)

Yahweh-Shalom
The Lord is peace. Whenever there are storms in your life, hide in Him. He is your shelter in the storm. He gives peace beyond understanding, even when circumstances are chaotic. He is our shelter and our shield. 
(Judges 6:24)

Yahweh-Sabbaoth
The Lord of Hosts. The Bible mentions myriads of angels, who wage war against the armies of hell, who try to destroy mankind. Jesus Christ is the Lord of hosts, the Captain of the armies of heaven. 
(Isaiah 6:1-31 Samuel 1:3, 17:45; 2 Samuel 6:2, 7:26-27; 1 Chronicles 11:9; Haggai 1:5)

Yahweh-Ghmolah
The God of Recompense. The Lord says in Romans 12 “vengeance is mine, I will repay.” We should never avenge others for what they do to us, but leave it in God’s hands.
(Jeremiah 51:6)

Elohim
God is creator, powerful and mighty, Lord of lords. He is the Lord Most High, stronger and mightier than anyone or anything. When you face impossible circumstances or adversaries, now that your God is stronger.
(Gen. 1:1, 17:7, Ps 19:1 Jer. 31:33)

El-Elyon
The most high God. Do not fear the enemy who tries to intimidate you. Know that your God is the Most High God. There is none above Him. Jesus Christ is exalted high above every name.
(Genesis 14:17-20, Deuteronomy 26:19, Isaiah 14:13-14)

El-Gibhor
Mighty God. The Lord is mighty to save. His arm is not too short. Whatever problem you are facing, know that your God is El-Gibhor, MIGHTY!
(Isaiah 9:6)

El-Olam
The everlasting God. God is eternal, while your problems are temporary. His love will never change. His promises are true. Build on Him, who is eternal and do not focus on your temporary situations. He will show you His great and eternal goodness.
(Isaiah 40:28-31)

El-Roi
The strong one who sees. When you feel lonely and abandoned by people, know that God is with you. He sees you and He knows you. He hears the cry of your heart and He loves you more than you can imagine. he will lead you through and fill your hear with His praise.
(Genesis 16:13)

El-Shaddai-Rohi
God Almighty, the mighty One of Jacob. God is not just another ‘god’ like the countless idols. He truly is the Almighty Creator of heaven and earth.
(Gen. 17:1, 49:24, Ps. 91:1, 132:2, 5)

El-Chuwl
The God who gave birth. God is our Creator and our Father. He saw us and He loved us, even before we were born. He has a plan for your life and if you walk with Him, He will fulfill His dreams over your life and amaze you.
(Psalm 139:13-18)

El-Deah
God of knowledge. Wisdom comes from the Lord. Man tries to become wise apart from God, ut ends up in foolishness. When we fear God and keep His commandments, to love one another, we will know Him as He is and His wisdom will guide us.
(1 Samuel 2:3; Romans 11:33-36; 1 Cor. 1:18-31)

Attiyq Youm
The Ancient of Days. God is eternal. He was before the beginning of time. Therefor He has all authority. Every knee bows before Him.
(Daniel 7:9, 13, 14)

[Copied from]

NAMES OF GOD - Complete list from Hebrew and the Bible

 

Forgive me please, for being a stickler but the Paleo- Hebrew does not actually sound like Tah-way but rather I have learned His Name is pronounced mor correctly as YHWH = Yak-vak and pronouned by aspirating both Hs  and remeembering they had no V sound in their Hebrew.  The h, ch and k sound the same as a k and very short hissing sound.

 

I find naught wrong with the English Translation but I never translated anyone's name when I served them, in their nation or ours but, rather, learned to speak their name just as they gave it to me.  I feel I can do no less for YHWH.  May YHWH bless your efforts to teach.

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Becky
Moderator
22 hours ago, Matt said:

I have doubts in my mind..that's why I am asking questions!

 

Someone told me: "Sun reflects its light on Moon & it shines otherwise Moon has no light. Sun is the source of life on earth but we can't say this about Moon. In a same way, God Almighty gave miracles to Jesus but it doesn't mean that we start to call him God Almighty"

Some one, more then one, have now told you different. The Son is the light of the world.  The question has been answered more then once.  Are you playing games or  do you have a real question? 

 

Joh 8:12  Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Rev 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 
Psa 27:1  A Psalm of David. The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? 
 

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Matt
2 hours ago, Becky said:

Some one, more then one, have now told you different. The Son is the light of the world.  The question has been answered more then once.  Are you playing games or  do you have a real question? 

 

Joh 8:12  Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Rev 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 
Psa 27:1  A Psalm of David. The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? 
 

Becky, I don't have time to playing games!!

I do believe that Jesus was great prophet & Messiah BUT now I don't believe that He was GOD or son of God. Biblical prophets preached that "there's only One God" and I found no clue of Trinity in OT.

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Becky
Moderator
Just now, Matt said:

Becky, I don't have time to playing games!!

I do believe that Jesus was great prophet & Messiah BUT now I don't believe that He was GOD or son of God. Biblical prophets preached that "there's only One God" and I found no clue of Trinity in OT.

OK so what more do you want from these members ? Refusing their Biblical answers to your question, shows me you refuse God's Truth

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Matt
19 minutes ago, Becky said:

OK so what more do you want from these members ? Refusing their Biblical answers to your question, shows me you refuse God's Truth

The doctrine of Trinity was started in 3rd century by Tertullian. He also noted that "the majority of the believers in his day found issue with his doctrine".

I also don't believe that Jesus was God.

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Becky
Moderator

So you are here to tell us of our errs,  not really here to be seriously asking. Yup playing games 

 

The one true God is personal, yet beyond our comprehension. He is an invisible spirit, completely self-sufficient and unbounded by space or time, perfectly holy and just, and loving and merciful. In the unity of the Godhead there are three “persons”: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

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Origen
Moderator
3 hours ago, Matt said:

The doctrine of Trinity was started in 3rd century by Tertullian. He also noted that "the majority of the believers in his day found issue with his doctrine".

"Amazing!   Every word of which you just wrote is wrong."  And the pitiful part is if you had only done some research into the matter you would have know better.  Belief in the deity of Christ and the trinity was early and did not start with Tertullian (died ca. 235\240).  In order to know this all anyone has to do is read.


 

Ignatius (died ca. A.D. 107)

The Epistle to the Ephesians

(1) Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God.

(2) There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.

(3) For our God, Jesus the Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.

(4) Hence every kind of magic was destroyed, and every bond of wickedness disappeared; ignorance was removed, and the old kingdom abolished, God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life.

The Epistle to the Smyraeans

(1) I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise.

(2) Ye have done well in receiving Philo and Rheus Agathopus as servants of Christ our God, who have followed me for the sake of God, and who give thanks to the Lord in your behalf, because ye have in every way refreshed them.

The Epistle to the Romans

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the report of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, [i wish] abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God. (S)

The Epistle to the Trallians

And this will be the case with you if you are not puffed up, and continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ our God, and the bishop, and the enactments of the apostles.

The Epistle to Polycarp

Look for Him who is above all time, eternal and invisible, yet who became visible for our sakes; impalpable and impassible, yet who became passible on our account; and who in every kind of way suffered for our sakes.

 

Aristides (died ca. A.D. 129)

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. (The Apology of Aristides)

 

Polycarp (died ca. A.D. 130)

The Epistle to the Philippians

...to all under heaven who shall believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.

Melito, Bishop of Sardis (died ca. 160 A.D.)

For, being at once both God and perfect man, he gave us sure indication of His two natures, His deity, by the miracles during the three years after his baptism, and his humanity, by the thirty similar periods before his baptism... (On the Nature of Christ)

 

Justin Martyr (died ca. A.D. 165)

(1) And I said, "As you wish, Trypho, I shall come to these proofs which you seek in the fitting place; but now you will permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts. . . (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. XXXVI)

(2) Moreover, in the diapsalm of the forty-sixth Psalm, reference is thus made to Christ: 'God went up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet'. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. XXXVII)

(3) Therefore neither Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob, nor any other man, saw the Father and ineffable Lord of all, and also of Christ, but [saw] Him who was according to His will His Son, being God, and the Angel because He ministered to His will. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. CXXVII)

(4) And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. CXXVIII)

(5) Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [i.e. Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. Chapter LXIII)

 

Tatian the Assyrian (died ca. A.D. 172)

We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales when we announce that God was born in the form of man. (Address of Tatian to the Greeks, Chap. XXI)

 

Athenagoras the Athenian (after A.D. 177)

That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being-I have sufficiently demonstrated. [i say "His Logos"], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind, had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos; but in as much as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter. The prophetic Spirit also agrees with our statements. "The Lord," it says, "made me, the beginning of His ways to His works." The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists? Nor is our teaching in what relates to the divine nature confined to these points; but we recognise also a multitude of angels and ministers, whom God the Maker and Framer of the world distributed and appointed to their several posts by His Logos, to occupy themselves about the elements, and the heavens, and the world, and the things in it, and the goodly ordering of them all. (A Plea For the Christians, Chap. X)

 

Theophilus (died ca. A.D.181)

In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity (i.e. triados), of God, and His Word, and His Wisdom. (Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 2, Chap. 15)

 

Irenaus (died ca. A.D. 200)

(1) God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin. (Against Heresies, Book III, Chap. XXI)

(2) For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself [i.e. Jesus] in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. (Against Heresies, Book III, Chap. XIX)

(3) But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues, and all to whom He wills that God should be revealed. (Against Heresies, Book II, Chap. XXX, Section 9)

(4) Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). (Against Heresies, Book III, Chap. XXI, Section 4)

(5) Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers. (Against Heresies, Book IV, Chap. V, Section 2)

 

Clement of Alexandria (died ca. A.D. 215)

(1) There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated. (Fragments, Part I, Section 3)

(2) Now, O you, my children, our Instructor is like His Father God, whose son He is, sinless, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion; God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God. (Instructor, Book I, Chap. II)

(3) But our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word, who is the guide of all humanity. The loving God Himself is our Instructor. (Instructor, Book I, Chap. VII)

(4) Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one--that is, God. For He has said, "In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God. (Instructor, Book I, Chap. VII)

(5) I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father. (Stromata, Book V, Chap. XIV)

(6) This very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man. (Exhortation to the Heathen, Chap. I)

 

Caius (died ca. AD 217)

Fragments of Caius

Preserved in Ecclesiastical History V. 28

Eusebius of Caesarea (died ca AD 339)

For they say that all those of the first age, and the apostles themselves, both received and taught those things which these men now maintain; and that the truth of Gospel preaching was preserved until the times of Victor, who was the thirteenth bishop in Rome from Peter, and that from his successor Zephyrinus the truth was falsified. And perhaps what they allege might be credible, did not the Holy Scriptures, in the first place, contradict them. And then, besides, there are writings of certain brethren older than the times of Victor, which they wrote against the heathen in defence of the truth, and against the heresies of their time: I mean Justin and Miltiades, and Tatian and Clement, and many others, in all which divinity is ascribed to Christ. For who is ignorant of the books of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, which declare Christ to be God and man? All the psalms, too, and hymns of brethren, which have been written from the beginning by the faithful, celebrate Christ the Word of God, ascribing divinity to Him. Since the doctrine of the Church, then, has been proclaimed so many years ago, how is it possible that men have preached, up to the time of Victor, in the manner asserted by these? And how are they not ashamed to utter these calumnies against Victor, knowing well that Victor excommunicated Theodotus the tanner, the leader and father of this God-denying apostasy, who first affirmed that Christ was a mere man? For if, as they allege, Victor entertained the very opinions which their blasphemy teaches, how should he have cast off Theodotus, the author of this heresy?

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Matt1

@Becky

Thx for banning me. If you can't explain enigmatic Trinity, just ban him on forum..wow!!

 

@Origen

Tertullian (155 – 240) has been called "the father of Latin Christianity" and "the founder of Western theology." 

He originated new theological concepts and advanced the development of early Church doctrine. 

According to The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "Tertullian's trinity [is] not a triune God, but rather a triad or group of three, with God as the founding member".

Tertullian - Wikipedia

 

If those Christian individuals (whom you quoted) believed in divinity of Jesus, there were also others who rejected divinity of Jesus in early Christian era e.g. Ebionites.

 

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Faber
12 hours ago, Matt said:

I found no clue of Trinity in OT.

Then you are willingly clueless. I gave two passages above (John 5:23; 14:14) which teach that the Lord Jesus commanded us to worship Him. Throw in the many other passages which teach He is properly worshiped clearly proves that He is God.

 

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

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Placable37
13 hours ago, Matt said:

The doctrine of Trinity was started in 3rd century by Tertullian. He also noted that "the majority of the believers in his day found issue with his doctrine".

I also don't believe that Jesus was God.

Quote

 

On 6/27/2018 at 9:34PM, Matto said:

So a Catholic sees the Eucharistic Supper as a supernatural event where Jesus comes in the flesh in Covenant. The new Manna from Heaven to feed and sustain His people with a His very Self.

We don't believe bread and wine gives life, only Jesus flesh and blood gives life and sustains us in this wilderness. So when we are asked to deny Jesus comes in the flesh in the Eucharist, it's like asking us give up our sustainence

 

Matt doesn't believe "Jesus was God" (sic), and Matto waxes lyrical about the the literal flesh and blood of Jesus being present for his consumption in the Eucharist. [https://www.christforums.org/forums/topic/7421-is-it-wrong-to-say-something-against-catholicism-on-christforums/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-58322]

 

Clearly some wires crossed with these two here. I pray for both of them,  that their crossed wires be uncrossed, and they come to Christ's Cross, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

Edited by Placable37

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Origen
Moderator
On 7/1/2018 at 3:34 AM, Matt1 said:

 

Tertullian (155 – 240) has been called "the father of Latin Christianity" and "the founder of Western theology." 

He originated new theological concepts and advanced the development of early Church doctrine. 

According to The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "Tertullian's trinity [is] not a triune God, but rather a triad or group of three, with God as the founding member".

Tertullian - Wikipedia

 

If those Christian individuals (whom you quoted) believed in divinity of Jesus, there were also others who rejected divinity of Jesus in early Christian era e.g. Ebionites.

None of that address the evidence I gave.  It is clear you simply gloss over anything that does not fit your claims rather than trying to interact with it.

 

Quote

If those Christian individuals (whom you quoted) believed in divinity of Jesus, there were also others who rejected divinity of Jesus in early Christian

Another irrelevant point.  Sure there some who did not believe in the deity of Christ.  No one argued against that point.  The evidence given was used to refute your claims concerning the deity of Christ.

 

Your Tertullian sources are mildly interesting, however I prefer primary sources especially when that  primary source is Tertullian himself.

 

Tertullian (died ca. 235\240)

(1) But keeping this prescriptive rule inviolate, still some opportunity must be given for reviewing (the statements of heretics), with a view to the instruction and protection of divers persons; were it only that it may not seem that each perversion of the truth is condemned without examination, and simply prejudged; especially in the case of this heresy, which supposes itself to possess the pure truth, in thinking that one cannot believe in One Only God in any other way than by saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are the very selfsame Person. As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. How they are susceptible of number without division, will be shown as our treatise proceeds. (Against Praxeas, Chap. II)

 

(2) There are some who allege that even Genesis opens thus in Hebrew: "In the beginning God made for Himself a Son." As there is no ground for this, I am led to other arguments derived from God's own dispensation, in which He existed before the creation of the world, up to the generation of the Son. For before all things God was alone-being in Himself and for Himself universe, and space, and all things. Moreover, He was alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself. Yet even not then was He alone; for He had with Him that which He possessed in Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him; and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call lo/gos, by which term we also designate Word or Discourse and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the mere simple interpretation of the term, to say that the Word was in the beginning with God; although it would be more suitable to regard Reason as the more ancient; because God had not Word from the beginning, but He had Reason even before the beginning; because also Word itself consists of Reason, which it thus proves to have been the prior existence as being its own substance. Not that this distinction is of any practical moment. For although God had not yet sent out His Word, He still had Him within Himself, both in company with and included within His very Reason, as He silently planned and arranged within Himself everything which He was afterwards about to utter through His Word. Now, whilst He was thus planning and arranging with His own Reason, He was actually causing that to become Word which He was dealing with in the way of Word or Discourse. (Against Praxeas, Chap. V)

 

(3) I may therefore without rashness first lay this down (as a fixed principle) that even then before the creation of the universe God was not alone, since He had within Himself both Reason, and, inherent in Reason, His Word, which He made second to Himself by agitating it within Himself.   (Against Praxeas, Chap. V)

 

(4) Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that They are distinct from Each Other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when (extolling the Monarchy at the expense of the Economy) they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: "My Father is greater than I."  In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being "a little lower than the angels." Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, "I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter ... even the Spirit of truth," thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and Son amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality? (Against Praxeas, Chap. IX)

 

(5) That there are, however, two Gods or two Lords, is a statement which at no time proceeds out of our mouth: not as if it were untrue that the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, and each is God; but because in earlier times Two were actually spoken of as God, and two as Lord, that when Christ should come He might be both acknowledged as God and designated as Lord, being the Son of Him who is both God and Lord. Now, if there were found in the Scriptures but one Personality of Him who is God and Lord, Christ would justly enough be inadmissible to the title of God and Lord: for (in the Scriptures) there was declared to be none other than One God and One Lord, and it must have followed that the Father should Himself seem to have come down (to earth), inasmuch as only One God and One Lord was ever read of (in the Scriptures), and His entire Economy would be involved in obscurity, which has been planned and arranged with so clear a foresight in His providential dispensation as matter for our faith. (Against Praxeas, Chap. XIII)

 

(6) For although the Word was God, yet was He with God, because He is God of God; and being joined to the Father, is with the Father. "And we have seen His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father; " that is, of course, (the glory) of the Son, even Him who was visible, and was glorified by the invisible Father. And therefore, inasmuch as he had said that the Word of God was God, in order that he might give no help to the presumption of the adversary, (which pretended) that he had seen the Father Himself and in order to draw a distinction between the invisible Father and the visible Son, he makes the additional assertion, ex abundanti as it were: "No man hath seen God at any time." (Against Praxeas, Chap. XV)

 

(7) But what hinders them from readily perceiving this community of the Father's titles in the Son, is the statement of Scripture, whenever it determines God to be but One; as if the selfsame Scripture had not also set forth Two both as God and Lord, as we have shown above. Their argument is: Since we find Two and One, therefore Both are One and the Same, both Father and Son. Now the Scripture is not in danger of requiring the aid of any one's argument, lest it should seem to be self-contradictory. It has a method of its own, both when it sets forth one only God, and also when it shows that there are Two, Father and Son; and is consistent with itself. It is clear that the Son is mentioned by it. For, without any detriment to the Son, it is quite possible for it to have rightly determined that God is only One, to whom the Son belongs; since He who has a Son ceases not on that account to exist,-Himself being One only, that is, on His own account, whenever He is named without the Son. And He is named without the Son whensoever He is defined as the principle (of Deity) in the character of "its first Person," which had to be mentioned before the name of the Son; because it is the Father who is acknowledged in the first place, and after the Father the Son is named. Therefore "there is one God," the Father, "and without Him there is none else." And when He Himself makes this declaration, He denies not the Son, but says that there is no other God; and the Son is not different from the Father. Indeed, if you only look carefully at the contexts which follow such statements as this, you will find that they nearly always have distinct reference to the makers of idols and the worshippers thereof, with a view to the multitude of false gods being expelled by the unity of the Godhead, which nevertheless has a Son; and inasmuch as this Son is undivided and inseparable from the Father, so is He to be reckoned as being in the Father, even when He is not named. The fact is, if He had named Him expressly, He would have separated Him, saying in so many words: "Beside me there is none else, except my Son." In short He would have made His Son actually another, after excepting Him from others. (Against Praxeas, Chap. XXVIII)

 

(8) Therefore, if they have determined that the Father and the Son must be regarded as one and the same, for the express purpose of vindicating the unity of God, that unity of His is preserved intact; for He is one, and yet He has a Son, who is equally with Himself comprehended in the same Scriptures. Since they are unwilling to allow that the Son is a distinct Person, second from the Father, lest, being thus second, He should cause two Gods to be spoken of, we have shown above that Two are actually described in Scripture as God and Lord. And to prevent their being offended at this fact, we give a reason why they are not said to be two Gods and two Lords, but that they are two as Father and Son; and this not by severance of their substance, but from the dispensation wherein we declare the Son to be undivided and inseparable from the Father,-distinct in degree, not in state. And although, when named apart, He is called God, He does not thereby constitute two Gods, but one; and that from the very circumstance that He is entitled to be called God, from His union with the Father. (Against Praxeas, Chap. XIX)

 

(9) Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, "I and my Father are One," in respect of unity of substance not singularity of number. (Against Praxeas, Chap. XXV)

 

(10) Thus the nature of the two substances displayed Him as man and God,-in one respect born, in the other unborn; in one respect fleshly in the other spiritual; in one sense weak in the other exceeding strong; in on sense dying, in the other living. This property of the two states-the divine and the human-is distinctly asserted with equal truth of both natures alike, with the same belief both in respect of the Spirit and of the flesh. The powers of the Spirit, proved Him to be God, His sufferings attested the flesh of man. (On the Flesh of Christ, Chap. V)

 

(11) Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence-in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. (The Apology, Chap. XXI)

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Becky
Moderator
4 hours ago, Matt1 said:

Becky

Thx for banning me. If you can't explain enigmatic Trinity, just ban him on forum..wow!!

You were banned for being dishonest.  I can not explain The Trinity but again that is not why you were banned . I will not allow people to use this site to spout That my God is a liar. 

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