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Alfred Persson

Lazarus and the Rich Man Correspondence = Temporary Torment

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Alfred Persson

 24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
 25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. (Lk. 16:24-25 NKJ)

 

“Reversal” is the “cause” of what exists in Hades (Lk. 6:25), a “correlation” governs what the Rich Man receives.

 

While alive the Rich Man lived in paradise with plenty to spare yet failed to aid Lazarus at his gate who was in anguish from want and experienced only bad things while alive. To balance the scales, Lazarus now enjoys paradise with plenty to spare but is not permitted to aid the Rich Man in anguish from want in Hades and experiencing only bad things while dead.

 

It logically follows therefore, as Lazarus suffered until he died, the Rich Man’s torment ends when he “dies”. As the change that occurs during repentance is figuratively like “dying”, the “old man” is “born again” a “new man” (2Cor. 5:17. Rom. 6:4. Jn 3:3. Eph. 4:24), it follows the Rich Man’s torment ends when he repents. 

 

 

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Placable37
7 hours ago, Alfred Persson said:

 24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am torment...

...it follows the Rich Man’s torment ends when he repents. 

Are you saying repentance is an option for the rich man who is in hades? Too late to repent, end of!

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Alfred Persson
13 hours ago, Placable37 said:

Are you saying repentance is an option for the rich man who is in hades? Too late to repent, end of!

Yes. I know how strange that seems to those not shown the Bible verses that teach it, but if you go to here many of them are listed:

 

 

Here's a couple of texts you may have missed:

 

 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

 

They "hear" while in the graves, and those who "done good" come out unto the "resurrection of life".

 

Again we see sins can be forgiven after death:

 

 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:32 KJV)

 

So a person can die blaspheming Christ and yet be forgiven in the "world to come". That explains how Jews who died the enemy of the Gospel, are saved after they died:

 

 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 (Rom. 11:26-29 KJV)

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Placable37
13 hours ago, Alfred Persson said:

Yes. I know how strange that seems to those not shown the Bible verses that teach it, but if you go to here many of them are listed:

 

 

Here's a couple of texts you may have missed:

 

 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

 

They "hear" while in the graves, and those who "done good" come out unto the "resurrection of life".

 

Again we see sins can be forgiven after death:

 

 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:32 KJV)

 

So a person can die blaspheming Christ and yet be forgiven in the "world to come". That explains how Jews who died the enemy of the Gospel, are saved after they died:

 

 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 (Rom. 11:26-29 KJV)

Do you also believe in Universal Salvation? In your scenario hades would make everyone repent, I expect.

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Alfred Persson
5 minutes ago, Placable37 said:

Do you also believe in Universal Salvation? In your scenario hades would make everyone repent, I expect.

No. There are "eternal sins" like blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mt. 12:31) accepting the Mark of the Beast (Rev. 14:9-11), pedophilia or stumbling one of Christ's children (Mk. 9:36-48).

There may be other eternal sins, that's the few I recall "off the top of my head" as it were.

 

Many translations confuse Hades with Gehenna. Christ warned about Gehenna, a place of physical torment, much more than He mentioned Hades. Get a strong's concordance and check it out yourself.

 

Death and Hades at best are temporary, they both are cast into the "Lake of Fire" AFTER all the dead in them, are resurrected:

 

 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:13-14 NKJ)

 

There is a resurrection from the "first death", but no "return" or resurrection from the "second death", its eternal.

 

But it does not follow all cast into the "second death" remain eternally, because it follows from the warning of "eternal torment" for accepting the Mark of the Beast, there is "less than eternal torment" for other sins, otherwise the warning is meaningless:

 

 9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
 10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
 11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
 (Rev. 14:9-11 NKJ)

 

 

 

 

Edited by Alfred Persson
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Alfred Persson
43 minutes ago, Placable37 said:

Do you also believe in Universal Salvation? In your scenario hades would make everyone repent, I expect.

For your Bible Studies, better than Strong's Concordance is "BibleWorks 10"; also Logos Bible Software

 

BibleWorks - Bible software with Greek, Hebrew, LXX, and more! Software for Bible study and exegesis.

 

Logos Bible Software - Bible Study has never been easier! - Logos Bible Software

 

Get BibleWorks first, it makes accessing the original languages easy. Logos accesses scholarship easily, But with a little effort can do much more.

 

ESword is free, but not as good as the two above:

e-Sword: Free Bible Study for the PC

 

 

Edited by Alfred Persson
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Placable37

I suspect you have debated or discussed the subject of this thread at length. 

For me it's a simple truth that if the evidence for God's existence and the truth of His word are rejected in this life there only awaits the judgment.

The rich man was separated by a gulf and was tormented by the realisation that it was too late to repent.

The concept of purgatory is gnostic in origin and I have studied the Scriptures to the extent that I am satisfied it is not taught in them.

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Alfred Persson

Cognitive Dissonance. There was no rejection of God truth and His Word in my replies, or my position. You are replying to an hallucination, not the scriptures I cited.

 

Proof your argument is delusional is found in Rev. 20:13-14 where the dead are raised up out of Death and Hades.

 

The great gulf doesn't prevent God from emptying Hades.

 

Then both Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, empty.

 

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:13-14 NKJ)

 

That invalidates everything you said. And proves its not me who is rejecting the truth of God and His Word.

 

I suggest you get in line with the Holy Scriptures and stop teaching against it.

Edited by Alfred Persson

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Innerfire89

The dead have no choice to repent, that chance is gone. Ecc.9:5.

Judgment and the punishment are eternal, Matthew 25:46.

The wicked never repent, even if they had the choice. Rev.16:9.

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atpollard
6 hours ago, Alfred Persson said:

Yes. I know how strange that seems to those not shown the Bible verses that teach it, but if you go to here many of them are listed:

repentance in hell

 

Here's a couple of texts you may have missed:

 

 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

 

They "hear" while in the graves, and those who "done good" come out unto the "resurrection of life".

 

Again we see sins can be forgiven after death:

 

 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:32 KJV)

 

So a person can die blaspheming Christ and yet be forgiven in the "world to come". That explains how Jews who died the enemy of the Gospel, are saved after they died:

 

 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 (Rom. 11:26-29 KJV)

 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

 

They "hear" while in the graves, and those who "done good" come out unto the "resurrection of life".

 

It is no surprise that all who have died are resurrected and then face judgement:

 

[Matthew 7:17-23 NLT]

17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can't produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can't produce good fruit. 19 So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions. 21 "Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, 'Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' 23 But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'

 

[Matthew 25:31-36, 41-43, 46 NLT]

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.' ... 41 "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. 42 For I was hungry, and you didn't feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn't give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn't invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn't give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn't visit me.' ... 46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."

 

 

The question is "Who does good?"

 

[Hebrews 11:5-10 NLT]

5 It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying--"he disappeared, because God took him." For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. 6 And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him. 7 It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith. 8 It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. 9 And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith--for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. 10 Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.

 

[Ephesians 2:8-10 NLT]

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

 

[Mark 10:18 NLT] 18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked. "Only God is truly good.
[Luke 18:19 NLT] 19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "Only God is truly good.

 

**************************

Again we see sins can be forgiven after death:

 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:32 KJV)

So a person can die blaspheming Christ and yet be forgiven in the "world to come".

 

[Matthew 12:32 NLT] 32 Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

[Matthew 12:32 KJV] 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

[Matthew 12:32 NIV] 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

It helps to parse the sentence correctly:

  • [NLT] Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven,
  • [KJV] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
  • [NIV] Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven,

BUT

  • [NLT] anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.
  • [KJV] but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
  • [NIV] anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Anyone can be forgiven for speaking against the son (while they live [Hebrews 9:27-28] ), but those who speak against the Holy Spirit will NEVER be forgiven.  There is no talk of a second chance to repent.

 

**********************************

That explains how Jews who died the enemy of the Gospel, are saved after they died:

 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 (Rom. 11:26-29 KJV)

 

This is about the people of Israel (collectively) and not every dead decedent of Jacob, but I don't debate eschatology.

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Alfred Persson
22 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

The dead have no choice to repent, that chance is gone. Ecc.9:5.

Judgment and the punishment are eternal, Matthew 25:46.

The wicked never repent, even if they had the choice. Rev.16:9.

So Ecc. 9:5 says the dead are not rewarded by God, so Christianity is worthless. You die and get no reward, not eternal life, nothing. Is that what you believe? Or doesn't it actually say there is nothing a dead person can do in the land of the living. The living forget who they are, the dead cannot earn wages for work etc.

 

Matthew 25:46 isn't about Hades, its describes what happens to the survivors of Armageddon who see Christ and His angels return to earth, with the church already reigning as kings and priests. Its the sheep and goat judgment, not about the dead in Hades.

 

Rev. 16:9 is during the fourth bowl which is poured out on the sun and the  Antichrist Beast and his followers refuse to repent.

Its not about the dead in Hades at all.

 

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Alfred Persson
13 minutes ago, atpollard said:

 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

 

They "hear" while in the graves, and those who "done good" come out unto the "resurrection of life".

 

It is no surprise that all who have died are resurrected and then face judgement:

 

[Matthew 7:17-23 NLT]

17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can't produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can't produce good fruit. 19 So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions. 21 "Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, 'Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' 23 But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'

 

[Matthew 25:31-36, 41-43, 46 NLT]

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.' ... 41 "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. 42 For I was hungry, and you didn't feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn't give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn't invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn't give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn't visit me.' ... 46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."

 

 

The question is "Who does good?"

 

[Hebrews 11:5-10 NLT]

5 It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying--"he disappeared, because God took him." For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. 6 And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him. 7 It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith. 8 It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. 9 And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith--for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. 10 Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.

 

[Ephesians 2:8-10 NLT]

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

 

[Mark 10:18 NLT] 18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked. "Only God is truly good.
[Luke 18:19 NLT] 19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "Only God is truly good.

 

**************************

Again we see sins can be forgiven after death:

 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:32 KJV)

So a person can die blaspheming Christ and yet be forgiven in the "world to come".

 

[Matthew 12:32 NLT] 32 Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

[Matthew 12:32 KJV] 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

[Matthew 12:32 NIV] 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

It helps to parse the sentence correctly:

  • [NLT] Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven,
  • [KJV] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
  • [NIV] Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven,

BUT

  • [NLT] anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.
  • [KJV] but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
  • [NIV] anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Anyone can be forgiven for speaking against the son (while they live [Hebrews 9:27-28] ), but those who speak against the Holy Spirit will NEVER be forgiven.  There is no talk of a second chance to repent.

 

**********************************

That explains how Jews who died the enemy of the Gospel, are saved after they died:

 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 (Rom. 11:26-29 KJV)

 

This is about the people of Israel (collectively) and not every dead decedent of Jacob, but I don't debate eschatology.

I feel no compulsion to address the scriptures you cited, when you ignored the points I made in the scriptures I cited. To engage in swapping scriptures while ignoring the point I made in the scriptures cited, is a complete waste of time.

 

I'd rather eat bugs.

 

 

Edited by Alfred Persson

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Innerfire89
24 minutes ago, Alfred Persson said:

So Ecc. 9:5 says the dead are not rewarded by God, so Christianity is worthless. You die and get no reward, not eternal life, nothing. Is that what you believe? Or doesn't it actually say there is nothing a dead person can do in the land of the living. The living forget who they are, the dead cannot earn wages for work etc.

 

Matthew 25:46 isn't about Hades, its describes what happens to the survivors of Armageddon who see Christ and His angels return to earth, with the church already reigning as kings and priests. Its the sheep and goat judgment, not about the dead in Hades.

 

Rev. 16:9 is during the fourth bowl which is poured out on the sun and the  Antichrist Beast and his followers refuse to repent.

Its not about the dead in Hades at all.

 

You twisted what I said, and you can no longer earn a reward in any way after you're dead.

What is the "hope"  in the verse right before 5?

Ecc.9:4

For to him that is joined to the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead dog.

Hope for what?

 

Do you see anything in the contex of Matthew 25:46 where the dead will be judged based on anything they do while they're dead? No, just the opposite.

 

The wicked do not repent, this is made clear in Revelations 16:9.  No where in Scripture is there even a hint at the dead having a chance to repent or repenting.

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Alfred Persson
1 hour ago, Innerfire89 said:

You twisted what I said, and you can no longer earn a reward in any way after you're dead.

What is the "hope"  in the verse right before 5?

Ecc.9:4

For to him that is joined to the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead dog.

Hope for what?

 

Do you see anything in the contex of Matthew 25:46 where the dead will be judged based on anything they do while they're dead? No, just the opposite.

 

The wicked do not repent, this is made clear in Revelations 16:9.  No where in Scripture is there even a hint at the dead having a chance to repent or repenting.

Didn't twist, you said: The dead have no choice to repent, that chance is gone. Ecc.9:5.

 

"No choice" meaning they "cannot" because you believe "the dead know nothing" = 1)They don't exist; 2)They are unconscious; 3)blithering idiots

 

 5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. (Eccl. 9:5 NKJ)

 

That is your argument, unfortunately for you the text also says "they haven no more reward". So if they "know nothing", then neither to they have "reward" and Christianity is in vain.

 

Sir, you can't have your cake and eat it to.

 

In CONTEXT, this does not say the dead "know nothing", it says they "know nothing that is happening "under the sun". Unlike the living, the have no reward for their efforts, even the memory of them among the living is eventually lost. [Those who knew them, die and then all memory of them BY THE LIVING is forgotten". That's why a living dog is better than a dead lion. They no longer have a share in anything "done under the sun" = "among the living on earth, above ground where the sun shines."

 

 3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
 4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
 5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
 6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun. (Eccl. 9:3-6 NKJ)

 

 

As for Matthew  25:46, I didn't cite it as proof of anything, YOU DID and its a fail. It is irrelevant to what the dead do, all those people are alive.

 

AND the wicked repent all the time, didn't you repent? You weren't righteous until you did, you were a lost wicked under the sin of Adam worthy of death child of satan, until you weren't by repenting and believing in Christ.

Edited by Alfred Persson

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Truth7t7
11 hours ago, Alfred Persson said:

Yes. I know how strange that seems to those not shown the Bible verses that teach it, but if you go to here many of them are listed:

repentance in hell

 

Here's a couple of texts you may have missed:

 

 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

 

They "hear" while in the graves, and those who "done good" come out unto the "resurrection of life".

 

Again we see sins can be forgiven after death:

 

 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:32 KJV)

 

So a person can die blaspheming Christ and yet be forgiven in the "world to come". That explains how Jews who died the enemy of the Gospel, are saved after they died:

 

 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 (Rom. 11:26-29 KJV)

Appears to be nothing more that the false Roman Catholic doctrine of "Purgatory"

 

Repentance in hell?

 

That's a big false doctrine!

Edited by Truth7t7
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Alfred Persson
8 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Appears to be nothing more that the false Roman Catholic doctrine of "Purgatory"

 

Repentance in hell?

 

That's a big false doctrine!

What's false is the proposition you actually visited the site and thought about the scriptural proofs I presented, and then made an informed decision.

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Innerfire89
4 hours ago, Alfred Persson said:

Didn't twist, you said: The dead have no choice to repent, that chance is gone. Ecc.9:5.

 

"No choice" meaning they "cannot" because you believe "the dead know nothing" = 1)They don't exist; 2)They are unconscious; 3)blithering idiots

 

 5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. (Eccl. 9:5 NKJ)

 

That is your argument, unfortunately for you the text also says "they haven no more reward". So if they "know nothing", then neither to they have "reward" and Christianity is in vain.

 

Sir, you can't have your cake and eat it to.

 

In CONTEXT, this does not say the dead "know nothing", it says they "know nothing that is happening "under the sun". Unlike the living, the have no reward for their efforts, even the memory of them among the living is eventually lost. [Those who knew them, die and then all memory of them BY THE LIVING is forgotten". That's why a living dog is better than a dead lion. They no longer have a share in anything "done under the sun" = "among the living on earth, above ground where the sun shines."

 

 3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
 4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
 5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
 6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun. (Eccl. 9:3-6 NKJ)

 

 

As for Matthew  25:46, I didn't cite it as proof of anything, YOU DID and its a fail. It is irrelevant to what the dead do, all those people are alive.

 

AND the wicked repent all the time, didn't you repent? You weren't righteous until you did, you were a lost wicked under the sin of Adam worthy of death child of satan, until you weren't by repenting and believing in Christ.

To say the dead have no reward is not the same as saying you lose your reward after you die. And no, losing reward in heaven does not make Christianity pointless, reward and salvation are not the same thing.

And you ignored my question, what is the hope that the living have that the dead don't?

 

You totally missed, the point made with Matthew25:46. 

 

Of course I repented, but I wasn't dead at the time or reaching God's wrath for rejecting Christ and taking the Mark of the beast. Lol.

There is no where in Scripture that says you can reject Christ in this life and repent after you're dead, the only example we have of the wicked being punished by God shows the opposite of repentence.

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Alfred Persson
32 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

To say the dead have no reward is not the same as saying you lose your reward after you die. And no, losing reward in heaven does not make Christianity pointless, reward and salvation are not the same thing.

And you ignored my question, what is the hope that the living have that the dead don't?

 

You totally missed, the point made with Matthew25:46

 

Of course I repented, but I wasn't dead at the time or reaching God's wrath for rejecting Christ and taking the Mark of the beast. Lol.

There is no where in Scripture that says you can reject Christ in this life and repent after you're dead, the only example we have of the wicked being punished by God shows the opposite of repentence.

Gotcha. You're twisting yourself into a pretzel to maintain eisegesis. The dead have no reward just like they "know nothing". What you refuse to do is obey the context, "the memory of them is forgotten" clearly refers to the memory of the living. As people who knew the deceased die off, all memory of those who died "is forgotten". So all of it, not knowing, no reward, memory, refers to what is "under the sun", not as you twisted it.

 

5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. (Eccl. 9:5 NKJ)

 

You have no point in Matthew 25:46, its not about dead people. The sheep and goat judgment happens when Christ arrives with the raptured church and His angels:

 

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. (1 Thess. 4:14 NKJ)

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. (Matt. 25:31-33 NKJ)

 

The church is with Christ, they are already saved. These people lived during the reign of the Beast, and they are being judged on how well they treated the church ("my brethren") as they were being persecuted during the Great Tribulation:

 

40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ)

 

When they are cast into the fire, its Gehenna they are going, not Hades. Hades is where souls suffer anguish, Gehenna where body and soul are destroyed:

 

YLT Matthew 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. (Matt. 10:28 YLT)

 

So the text HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with Luke 16:19-31.

 

Because Gehenna is so terrible God goes the extra mile trying to save as many as He can. Too bad you bought into a God who isn't love or just. Apart from a few sins, a lifetime of sin doesn't merit eternal punishment. Its unbalanced.

 

 

 

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Truth7t7
On 6/24/2018 at 6:43 PM, Alfred Persson said:

 24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
 25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. (Lk. 16:24-25 NKJ)

 

“Reversal” is the “cause” of what exists in Hades (Lk. 6:25), a “correlation” governs what the Rich Man receives.

 

While alive the Rich Man lived in paradise with plenty to spare yet failed to aid Lazarus at his gate who was in anguish from want and experienced only bad things while alive. To balance the scales, Lazarus now enjoys paradise with plenty to spare but is not permitted to aid the Rich Man in anguish from want in Hades and experiencing only bad things while dead.

 

It logically follows therefore, as Lazarus suffered until he died, the Rich Man’s torment ends when he “dies”. As the change that occurs during repentance is figuratively like “dying”, the “old man” is “born again” a “new man” (2Cor. 5:17Rom. 6:4Jn 3:3Eph. 4:24), it follows the Rich Man’s torment ends when he repents. 

 

 

The rich man will be consciously eternally tormented.

 

Your False doctrine is found in 7th Day Adventism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Herbert Armstrong, Christadelphians.

 

Wikipedia: Annihilationism (also known as extinctionismor destructionism[1]) is a belief that after the final judgment some human beings and all fallen angels (all of the damned) will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished,[2] rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell (often synonymized with the lake of fire).

 

Millerite and Adventist movement

 

Recently the doctrine has been most often associated with groups descended from or with influences from the Millerite movement of the mid-19th century. These include the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the Church of God (7th day) - Salem Conference, the Bible Students, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the followers of Herbert Armstrong, and the various Advent Christian churches. (The Millerite movement consisted of 50,000 to 100,000 people in the United States who eagerly expected the soon return of Jesus, and originated around William Miller).

Edited by Truth7t7

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Alfred Persson
2 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

The rich man will be consciously eternally tormented.

 

Your False doctrine is found in 7th Day Adventism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Herbert Armstrong, Christadelphians.

 

Wikipedia: Annihilationism (also known as extinctionismor destructionism[1]) is a belief that after the final judgment some human beings and all fallen angels (all of the damned) will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished,[2] rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell (often synonymized with the lake of fire).

 

Millerite and Adventist movement

 

Recently the doctrine has been most often associated with groups descended from or with influences from the Millerite movementof the mid-19th century. These include the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the Church of God (7th day) - Salem Conference, the Bible Students, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the followers of Herbert Armstrong, and the various Advent Christianchurches. (The Millerite movement consisted of 50,000 to 100,000 people in the United States who eagerly expected the soon return of Jesus, and originated around William Miller).

Ad hominem argument, unsound. Worse, its inept, grossly irrelevant groups that aren't even close to my position. Verdict? Cognitive Dissonance. 

 

 

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Innerfire89
11 hours ago, Alfred Persson said:

Gotcha. You're twisting yourself into a pretzel to maintain eisegesis. The dead have no reward just like they "know nothing". What you refuse to do is obey the context, "the memory of them is forgotten" clearly refers to the memory of the living. As people who knew the deceased die off, all memory of those who died "is forgotten". So all of it, not knowing, no reward, memory, refers to what is "under the sun", not as you twisted it.

 

5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. (Eccl. 9:5 NKJ)

 

You have no point in Matthew 25:46, its not about dead people. The sheep and goat judgment happens when Christ arrives with the raptured church and His angels:

 

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. (1 Thess. 4:14 NKJ)

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. (Matt. 25:31-33 NKJ)

 

The church is with Christ, they are already saved. These people lived during the reign of the Beast, and they are being judged on how well they treated the church ("my brethren") as they were being persecuted during the Great Tribulation:

 

40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ)

 

When they are cast into the fire, its Gehenna they are going, not Hades. Hades is where souls suffer anguish, Gehenna where body and soul are destroyed:

 

YLT Matthew 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. (Matt. 10:28 YLT)

 

So the text HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with Luke 16:19-31.

 

Because Gehenna is so terrible God goes the extra mile trying to save as many as He can. Too bad you bought into a God who isn't love or just. Apart from a few sins, a lifetime of sin doesn't merit eternal punishment. Its unbalanced.

 

 

 

Lol, you still didn't the question, I wonder why.

What is the hope that the dead no longer have?

You ignore part of the contex and put all you focus on another.

WHAT IS THE HOPE THE LIVONG HAVE THAT THE DEAD DO NOT HAVE? 

 

You build docrines from isolated verses while ignoring the rest of the Bible.

Jesus gives a perfect comparison of eternal life to eternal punishment.

Back to Matthew 25:46 again, 

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasing punishment: but the rightieous into life eternal.

Revelation 20:10 

And the devil that deceived then was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night, for ever and ever.

The dead are then judgeded and sent to the same lake of fire.

Revelations 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

God is perfectly loving and just, justice doesn't rest on your opinion. God decides what the punishment is for a life of sin, rebellion, and hate towards him is. And the wicked don't stop being wicked just because they're in Hell, they are forever punished for their eternal state of wickedness.

 

I'm wondering how you view any other form of justice.

It doesn't take but a minute to murder a person, yet thier usually given life in prison for a minute of commiting crime. It follows your same skewed logic you used for God's punishment of a lifetime of sin.

 

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