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NetChaplain

Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

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NetChaplain

This OP is for attempting a combined participation from those who are desiring to know more about the permanency of faith and salvation. I am presenting a couple passages to attempt to initiate interest in others who might desire to list whatever passages they can find relating to this issue that we can analyze together. The reason for my interest in dealing more with this issue is due to the fact that I believe it is the most significant Bible doctrine related to spiritual growth in the “image of Christ.”

 

2Pet 2:20

“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ . . .” They can obtain mental peace (escape) merely through knowing (but not understanding) Christ’s Gospel and acting in outward motions of false professions and works, but if they have not truly desired to be in His Gospel it will eventually manifest itself when “they are again entangled in them and overcome.”

2Pe 2:21

“For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.” This describes only “knowing the way,” but instead of following it they “turn from it,” and continue as they were.

 

This parallels Heb 10:26: “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth . . .” (Heb 10:26). Both of these passages are a description of one merely receiving the knowledge of the truth but not receiving the “truth.” In other words, choosing to continue as they were, even after becoming aware of “the truth,” but not choosing to receive and follow it.

 

 

 

A Couple Commentator Examples:

 

Albert Barnes (1798–1870):

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world” - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

 

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesses Christ” - Neither does this imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.

 

“For it had been better for them …” It would have been better for them, for:

 

(1) Then they would not have dishonored the cause of religion as they have now done.

 

(2) They would not have sunk so deep in profligacy as they now have.

 

(3) They would not have incurred so aggravated a condemnation in the world of woe. If people are resolved on being wicked, they had better never pretend to be good. If they are to be cast off at last, it had better not be as apostates from the cause of virtue and religion.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/2-peter-2.html

 

 

John Gill (1697–1771):

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world....” The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said {q}, "he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled amle ypwnjb, "with the pollutions of the world," what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:" these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have

 

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” The Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read, our Lord, and the latter leave out, "and Saviour"; by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place.

 

“For it had been better for them....” Not that ignorance is good, or to be excused; but it would have been a lesser evil, and not so much aggravated:

 

“Not to have known the way of righteousness”; the same with "the way of truth," 2 Peter 2:2, and "the right way," 2 Peter 2:15, the Gospel, which points out the way and method of a sinner's justification before God, which is not by the works of the law, but by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and received by faith; and which teaches men to live soberly, righteously, and godly; and a large, notional, though not an experimental knowledge, these apostates had of the word and doctrine of righteousness, and indeed of the whole of the Christian religion, which may truly go by this name:

 

“Then after they have known [it]”; owned, embraced, and professed it:

 

“To turn”: the Vulgate Latin version, and some copies, as the Alexandrian and others, add, to that which is behind; to their former lusts, or errors, or worse, which they had turned their backs upon externally.

 

“From the holy commandment delivered unto them”; by the commandment is meant the Gospel also, see 2 Peter 3:2; called holy, because of its nature and influence, and in opposition to the pollutions of the world; and which is the faith once delivered, Jude 1:3, and which they received, as delivered to them; and, particularly, the ordinances of it, which they once submitted to, kept, and observed, as they were delivered to them, but now relinquished, or corrupted: wherefore, it would have been better for them to have been in their former ignorance, either in Judaism, or in Gentilism, since proportionate to a man's light is his guilt, and so his punishment, see Romans 2:12.

https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=gill&b=61&c=2

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atpollard

Interesting search for all the places where the word 'knowledge' (G1922) is used:

 

  • [Rom 1:28 NASB] 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge[G1922] God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
  • [Rom 3:20 NASB] 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge[G1922] of sin.
  • [Rom 10:2 NASB] 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.[G1922]
  • [Eph 1:17 NASB] 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge[G1922] of Him.
  • [Eph 4:13 NASB] 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge[G1922] of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
  • [Phl 1:9 NASB] 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real[G1922] knowledge[G1922] and all discernment,
  • [Col 1:9-10 NASB] 9 For this reason also, since the day we heard [of it,] we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge[G1922] of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please [Him] in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge[G1922] of God;
  • [Col 2:2 NASB] 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and [attaining] to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, [resulting] in a true[G1922] knowledge[G1922] of God's mystery, [that is,] Christ [Himself,]
  • [Col 3:10 NASB] 10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true[G1922] knowledge[G1922] according to the image of the One who created him--
  • [1Ti 2:4 NASB] 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge[G1922] of the truth.
  • [2Ti 2:25 NASB] 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge[G1922] of the truth,
  • [2Ti 3:7 NASB] 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge[G1922] of the truth.
  • [Tit 1:1 NASB] 1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge[G1922] of the truth which is according to godliness,
  • [Phm 1:6 NASB] 6 [and I pray] that the fellowship of your faith may become effective through the knowledge[G1922] of every good thing which is in you for Christ's sake.
  • [Heb 10:26 NASB] 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge[G1922] of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
  • [2Pe 1:2-3, 8 NASB] 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge[G1922] of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true[G1922] knowledge[G1922] of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. ... 8 For if these [qualities] are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true[G1922] knowledge[G1922] of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  • [2Pe 2:20 NASB] 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge[G1922] of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

When it is critical that you understand that the writer means 'saving knowledge' the word is used twice and translated "true[G1922] knowledge[G1922]".

When it is talking about 'knowledge' that cannot be 'saving' (like Romans 1:28) it only appears once.

'Knowledge' used one time does not always mean just a head knowledge, but it was an interesting observation on the use of the word.

 

Heb 10:26 and 2Pe 2:20 do NOT say "true[G1922] knowledge[G1922]" ... make of that what you will.

 

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Placable37

Col 1:21-23
(21)  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled
(22)  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
(23)  If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

Obviously if a person once believed but recants their belief they void the covenant between them and Christ.

I have been personally acquainted with such covenant-breakers.

One that comes to mind was a so-called pastor in the so-called Baptist church who preached false doctrine, bullied his congregation, showed an ignorance of Scripture unbefitting his level of authority, and destroyed his marriage with his stubbornness. About 2 years after he was sacked by the Baptist authorities, having gone back to his secular occupation and by his own account distraught that he was no longer "the pastor", he committed suicide.

 

A person may believe they are Really Saved because of the Once Saved Always Saved maxim, but this maxim is only true of those who are Really Saved and don't break their covenant with Christ; meaning they continue in the faith.

Edited by Placable37
Emboldening
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William
Staff
1 hour ago, Placable37 said:

Obviously if a person once believed but recants their belief they void the covenant between them and Christ.

Are you suggesting that if I were to ever succumb to an emotional or even fearful moment where I denied Christ that the Covenant is made void?

 

Question, which is the Covenant head? You or Christ? And does the Covenant head Jesus Christ bear all the sins of those who partake of the Covenant or not? 

 

1 hour ago, Placable37 said:

A person may believe they are Really Saved because of the Once Saved Always Saved maxim, but this maxim is only true of those who are Really Saved and don't break their covenant with Christ; meaning they continue in the faith. 

I am receiving mixed signals here. A person may believe they are really saved and it seems that you then point to the wrong object of faith which is man's doctrine rather than a genuine faith which is in the correct object Jesus Christ? I just wanted to clarify that before I went any further.

 

God bless,

William

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Placable37
31 minutes ago, William said:

bAre you suggesting that if I were to ever succumb to an emotional or even fearful moment where I denied Christ that the Covenant is made void?

 

Question, which is the Covenant head? You or Christ? And does the Covenant head bear all the sins of those who partake of the Covenant or not? 

 

God bless,

William

Depends, if you still hope in the gospel because you are grounded and settled enough to continue in the faith in spite of the aberrant episode you succumb to, and you are not in fact an "obstinate apostate", you well could still be presented holy and unblameable and unreproveable in the sight of Christ, but if you reject His Headship Hebrews 10:22-31 is relevant:

Edited by Placable37

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William
Staff
8 hours ago, Placable37 said:

Depends, if you still hope in the gospel because you are grounded and settled enough to continue in the faith in spite of the aberrant episode you succumb to, and you are not in fact an "obstinate apostate", you well could still be presented holy and unblameable and unreproveable in the sight of Christ,

 

  • John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
  • John 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

No depends. Someone can have head knowledge of the Scriptures and think that in them they have eternal life like the Pharisees. The error of the Pharisees like other works based salvation or performance dependent salvation camps is that they make the Scriptures all about "I, me or myself". The Scriptures testify to Christ Jesus, the object of faith. To point towards anyone but Jesus for salvation is to point away from the true object of faith unto an idol. A person can live out his last days in idolatry.

 

Christ is the head of our covenant. Just like Adam was the head of his covenant. Adam's unrighteousness is imputed to everyone without exception, and Christ's righteousness is imputed through faith to His Elect. Again, faith in or of ourselves is not saving faith. Saving faith resides in the object of our faith Jesus Christ.

 

As for your previous example pertaining to the Baptist Pastor which later denied the faith, many people believe that the Holy Spirit indwells all believers today. That is, He is sealed in them. Not arguing against that point. However, like in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit can come upon unbelievers, they literally taste the fruit of the Spirit but yet are not saved. The Holy Spirit is not sealed unto them.

  • Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
  • Hebrews 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
  • Hebrews 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

There we have it. It is possible for someone to "taste" the fruits of the Spirit and not be saved. They may be temporarily leading us in church, bible study, even here in fellowship today etc, but only those that persevere to the end evidence genuine saving faith.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do not subscribe to OSAS as a Calvinist but rather Perseverance of the Saints. However, even that may be misconstrued if my confidence is in my ability to persevere. Rather, my confidence rests not in me but in the power of Christ to sustain me with His grace and by the power of His intercession.

 

God bless,

William

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Placable37

We might be inadvertently at cross purposes, both contending that there is no possibility of the elect apostasising, and if a mental illness or condition is "buffetting" one of the elect to make them deny Christ, that is not unto damnation. Neither was Peter's denial, but Titus was told to severely rebuke the Cretians because their walk did not match their talk. 

Tit 1:12-16
(12)  One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
(13)  This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
(14)  Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
(15)  Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
(16)  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

Yes! Yes! Yes! to Hebrews 6 all the way. Brilliant exhortation that nails the Gospel in verse 9.

 Heb 6:8-11
(8)  But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
(9)  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany (Gr. echō ) salvation, though we thus speak.
(10)  For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
(11)  And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

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Placable37
2 hours ago, William said:
  • John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
  • John 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

We notice that Jesus put the Jews refusal to come to down to their will. It was not a case of "can not" but "will not".

John 5:40 KJV
(40)  And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

In essence they were unwilling to be drawn by the Father.
John 6:43-45
(43)  Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
(44)  No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(45)  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me.

 

The unwilling can by the grace of God be made willing to be led in His Way, the unenlightened can by the grace of God be enlightened in His Truth, the lost soul that is dead in trespasses and sins and enroute to damnation can be found alive in Christ and destined to be saved for eternity; it's a miracle...the faithless need a miracle to lead them to repentance, and God's kindness is that miracle (John 3:16) 

John 14:5-7
(5)  Thomas said unto him, Lord, we know not whither you go; and how can we know the way?
(6)  Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.
(7)  If you had known me, you should have known my Father also: and from henceforth you know him, and have seen him.

 

Edited by Placable37
More anointed thoughts
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NetChaplain
17 hours ago, atpollard said:

When it is critical that you understand that the writer means 'saving knowledge' the word is used twice and translated "true[G1922] knowledge[G1922]".

When it is talking about 'knowledge' that cannot be 'saving' (like Romans 1:28) it only appears once.

'Knowledge' used one time does not always mean just a head knowledge, but it was an interesting observation on the use of the word.

 

Heb 10:26 and 2Pe 2:20 do NOT say "true[G1922] knowledge[G1922]" ... make of that what you will.

 

Hi Atpollard, and thanks for your reply! Not sure I understand the above, but “Strong's Number G1922 matches the Greek ἐπίγνωσις (epignōsis), which occurs 20 times in 20 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV.” 

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1922&t=KJV

Edited by NetChaplain

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NetChaplain
8 hours ago, Placable37 said:

(23)  If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.
 

I believe continuance is the best outward indication of faith, because faith never ceases.

 

8 hours ago, Placable37 said:

Obviously if a person once believed but recants their belief they void the covenant between them and Christ.

 

 I do not think one can actually believe and then not believe. It's not sensible, because if one decides he actually disbelieves it would mean he never actually believed, regardless of what he thought he truly believed.

 

I also believe that the New Covenant in Christ is not between God and man but between Christ and the Father (God); and believers is just recipients of it.

 

Blessings!

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William
Staff
6 hours ago, Placable37 said:

We notice that Jesus put the Jews refusal to come to down to their will. It was not a case of "can not" but "will not".

John 5:40 KJV
(40)  And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

In essence they were unwilling to be drawn by the Father.
John 6:43-45
(43)  Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
(44)  No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(45)  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me.

The reprobate perish because they are held accountable for themselves.  The natural man wills what he desires and he desires nothing of God. Man's will is not detached from his nature. No man's will is autonomous or independent from his nature. The natural man has no inclination, desire, and will to come to Christ, any more than power; which is an argument against, and not for the free will of man.

 

John 6:44 does not say "may come" as though it is permissible but not dependent on man's inability. We learn this at a young age, when we ask at a young age in school, "may I go to the bathroom" vs "can I go to the bathroom". Jesus is not stating that people "may not" have His permission or as though their wills are detached from their nature, no man "can come" to Him because man's will is bound to his sin nature. 

 

John 6:45 is an allusion to Isaiah 54:13 "All your children shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children." The "all" is limited to "they" which are the Elect who alone are the true children of the Church.

 

6 hours ago, Placable37 said:

The unwilling can by the grace of God be made willing to be led in His Way, the unenlightened can by the grace of God be enlightened in His Truth, the lost soul that is dead in trespasses and sins and enroute to damnation can be found alive in Christ and destined to be saved for eternity; it's a miracle...the faithless need a miracle to lead them to repentance, and God's kindness is that miracle (John 3:16

John 14:5-7
(5)  Thomas said unto him, Lord, we know not whither you go; and how can we know the way?
(6)  Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.
(7)  If you had known me, you should have known my Father also: and from henceforth you know him, and have seen him.

The very same verse you had already quoted states that the Elect are drawn to Christ.

  • John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 6:44:

No man can come to me (Total Depravity)

Unless the Father who sent me (Unconditional Election)

draws him (Irresistible Grace)

And I will raise him up (Limited Atonement)

On the last day (Perseverance of the Saints)

 

God bless,

William

 

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Sue D.

How about 'this' Ephesians 1:13 - 14  "And you also were included in Christ when  you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.  Have Believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -- to the praise of His glory."  

     And That is why I believe in eternal security.  Once the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, He Won't leave us until we are safe with Christ. 

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NetChaplain
1 hour ago, Sue D. said:

How about 'this' Ephesians 1:13 - 14  "And you also were included in Christ when  you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.  Have Believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -- to the praise of His glory."  

     And That is why I believe in eternal security.  Once the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, He Won't leave us until we are safe with Christ. 

Hi Sue! Amen, and thanks for the instructional reply!

 

Blessings!

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Placable37

While there may be Scriptures that appear to be "anti-OSAS" I prefer those that prove the wisdom of God in His mercy. (Titus 3:3-8)

 

Persuasion

A man persuaded against his will,

Is of the same persuasion still,

But the kindness of God is abundantly able,

To form infertile soil into that which is arable...

The newly truly persuaded with His Spirit to fill.

© Placable

Edited by Placable37

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dpaulw

2 Peter 2:20-21 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 

We are going to find that the same thing is true here as in other passages, the verses are taken out of context. The subject of the chapter is as there were false prophets, there are false teachers. It is a comparison, a double comparison; the false teachers of chapter two contrasted against the holy men of the preceding chapter and being comparable with the false prophets of the Old Testament.

 

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

Verse nine gives us the comparison of the save vs the lost.

 

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

 

Again, we are told who is being spoken about in verses 20 & 21?

 

2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

 

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

 

This is not the description of a saved man, these never understood. It is the false teachers; it is their judgment being spoken of.

 

2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:...

 

If you will read chapter one, you will see that chapter two is just a continuation and the comparison is between those holy men God spoke to, who accepted God's word and these false teachers that do not. To further cinch my contention that no one is losing their salvation the Lord gives us the example of Lot for us to understand the security of the believer.

 

2 Peter 2:7-8 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;

 

What is Lot's testimony of faith toward God? He certainly is not one of the hero's of the faith of Hebrews chapter eleven. He was greedy, materialistic and his family so unaccustomed to righteous living and teaching about God that the one time he is shown to preach the truth his children think he is drunk or out or his mind. He had chosen to live and remain among the sodomites for his own personal gain, to the detriment and lose of his own family. One time and one time only is Lot shown to have had faith in what God said, when he was told to flee the wrath to come. He did not live godly before or after, yet is describe as a "righteous" man. He is put here to emphasize that God is not condemning the saved. No one is losing salvation in this chapter nor anywhere else in the Scriptures.

 

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you....

 

When the Spirit of God made his abode in us, we passed from death unto life; there is no going back.

 

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

If I were to take the Scriptures out of their context like so many others, I would be forced to conclude that the only way to lose your salvation would be to try and keep it by works.

 

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

One can make the Bible teach anything by taking its passages out of their context.

 

context, Context, CONTEXT

 

Adapted from: Liberty in Christ

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Placable37
On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:00 AM, NetChaplain said:

I believe continuance is the best outward indication of faith, because faith never ceases.

 

 I do not think one can actually believe and then not believe. It's not sensible, because if one decides he actually disbelieves it would mean he never actually believed, regardless of what he thought he truly believed.

 

I also believe that the New Covenant in Christ is not between God and man but between Christ and the Father (God); and believers is just recipients of it.

 

Blessings!

We have people in our outer network who once believed the fundamentals of the faith but are now diverging into a foul brew of false doctrine in what is known as "Emerging or Emergent Church". (You can do a search if you want to know more.)

 

In some cases, mental health is impared, such as Parkinsons, and brain tumours, which cause bizarre denials and histrionics so we tread carefully.

 

In other cases, let me quote Paul:

Gal 3:1-4
(1)  O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ has been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(2)  This only would I learn of you, Received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3)  Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?
(4)  Have you suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

 

Gal 4:9-11
(9)  But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn you again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto you desire again to be in bondage?
(10)  You observe days, and months, and times, and years.
(11)  I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

 

Gal 5:1-9
(1)  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
(2)  Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
(3)  For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
(4)  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.
(5)  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
(6)  For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which works by love.
(7)  You did run well; who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth?
(8)  This persuasion comes not of him that calls you.
(9)  A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

 

Sometimes those who seem to be doing well end up not going the distance for various reasons, and certainly many become entangled again with the yoke of bondage that they once had liberty from. 

Not possible for the elect to be permanently deceived though: (an oxymoron would thus arise),

Mat 24:24
(24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Edited by Placable37

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Civilwarbuff
1 hour ago, Placable37 said:

In some cases, mental health is impared, such as Parkinsons, and brain tumours, which cause bizarre denials and histrionics so we tread carefully.

Parkinson's and brain tumors are not related to 'mental health' but are physical maladies....so yes, tread carefully.

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Placable37
7 minutes ago, Civilwarbuff said:

Parkinson's and brain tumors are not related to 'mental health' but are physical maladies....so yes, tread carefully.

Should have elaborated on the mental conditions experienced as being clinically diagnosed by medical practitioners as products of the physical condition.

 

My late mother had an inoperable brain tumour and her mental faculties were impared as a result, quite bizarrely so at times, but I take your point, Civil.

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NetChaplain
16 hours ago, dpaulw said:

2 Peter 2:20-21 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 

We are going to find that the same thing is true here as in other passages, the verses are taken out of context. The subject of the chapter is as there were false prophets, there are false teachers.

HI and thanks for your reply! I appreciate your laborious post, and regardless of a subject-matter we can learn from what is presented, which content also speaks of other subjects. Of course the subject-matter above to me describes that those in the faith of Christianity remain in it and those who leave it manifest that their heart was never in it, otherwise they would have "continued" in it (1Jhn 2:19), considering that God would be "working" in them to remain and grow (Phil 2:13).

 

I believe many appease the conscience through the peaceful knowledge of Christ's Gospel, which is merely a mental application without a heart application that only derives from a rebirth experience in Christ.

 

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NetChaplain
13 hours ago, Placable37 said:

Gal 3:1-4
(1)  O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ has been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(2)  This only would I learn of you, Received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3)  Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?
(4)  Have you suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

 

Gal 4:9-11
(9)  But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn you again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto you desire again to be in bondage?
(10)  You observe days, and months, and times, and years.
(11)  I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

 

Gal 5:1-9
(1)  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
(2)  Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
(3)  For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
(4)  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.
(5)  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
(6)  For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which works by love.
(7)  You did run well; who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth?
(8)  This persuasion comes not of him that calls you.
(9)  A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

 

 

Myself, I see nothing confirming these Galatians leaving Christianity but optimism that they will remain because Paul believed they were genuine Christians (Gal 5:10; Heb 6:9). Also it shows they were not very matured yet in their faith, being easily deceived concerning Judaism (Christianity was yet early then). Christians learn from the testings (deceptions and distractions) of their faith where their maturity is in Christ, but their redemption is complete and is not based on their maturity, which I beliee involves much time to reach the point of being considered strong in the faith; and regardless of the strength of faith, it will always grow and never cease or pass away in this life.

 

Immature Christians can be distracted and hindered but not misled because God "keeps them from falling" (Jude 1:24).

 

Blessings!

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Placable37
13 hours ago, NetChaplain said:

Myself, I see nothing confirming these Galatians leaving Christianity but optimism that they will remain because Paul believed they were genuine Christians (Gal 5:10; Heb 6:9). Also it shows they were not very matured yet in their faith, being easily deceived concerning Judaism (Christianity was yet early then). Christians learn from the testings (deceptions and distractions) of their faith where their maturity is in Christ, but their redemption is complete and is not based on their maturity, which I beliee involves much time to reach the point of being considered strong in the faith; and regardless of the strength of faith, it will always grow and never cease or pass away in this life.

 

Immature Christians can be distracted and hindered but not misled because God "keeps them from falling" (Jude 1:24).

 

Blessings!

It is not possible for the elect to be permanently deceived though: (an oxymoron would thus arise), but possible for them to be maligned for a belief and become temporarily fascinated by false representations, as per Strongs ref:

G940

βασκαίνω
baskainō
bas-kah'ee-no
Akin to G5335; to malign, that is, (by extension) to fascinate (by false representations): - bewitch.
Total KJV occurrences: 1
 

Isn't Greek language wonderful...?

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NetChaplain
9 hours ago, Placable37 said:

It is not possible for the elect to be permanently deceived though: (an oxymoron would thus arise), but possible for them to be maligned for a belief and become temporarily fascinated by false representations, as per Strongs ref:

G940

βασκαίνω
baskainō
bas-kah'ee-no
Akin to G5335; to malign, that is, (by extension) to fascinate (by false representations): - bewitch.
Total KJV occurrences: 1
 

Isn't Greek language wonderful...?

Amen, while young in the faith and growing in Christ's image, distraction comes easy but never to the point of deception from God's purpose for the believer, all of which is just used for our growth. As it is now for the believer, it was so in the time of the early believers, it took much time to "be conformed into image of Christ." Once the believer reaches a certain maturity--the distractions are so lessened that our understanding and walk are consistent with His Word!

 

Blessings, and appreciate your replies!

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Just Mike

For perhaps a good many who think because they responded to some alter call and even prayed asking for salvation. All this just might be quite deceiving, and allows a person to think they are now save from hell and damnation.

 

Unless a person begins to show evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that seed may well have landed on dry hard ground (hard heart). I am of the understanding by the Scripture, that unless there is repentance of sin as the Holy Spirit revels, and a  hunger for the WORD accompanied by a deep love for Jesus Christ there is amply reason to doubt a persons conversion. 

 

From January 7th 1957 until this day my life has become more deeply in love for God and His son, Jesus Christ. I hunger now more for the WORD each day, more than ever before. In the 61 years as I look back I can see how the Lord has directed my life. The paths of my life all show clearly God took me in directions that at the time seemed like I was in deep waters, but without those difficult times I would not be where I am today. I praise Him more today than ever before, each our I love Him more.

 

Here is my point, a person that just says at one point in their life a prayer for Jesus to love them, and thinks that is salvation, has been totally misled. Gods salvation, the Grace of Jesus Christ paying my sin debt, by Jesus shedding His Blood on that cross, and being raised to life, and being chosen to Follow Jesus is so utterly unbelievable.  The longer God directs me to be alive on this earth, the more time I have to learn more from the WORD, and love Jesus more. 

 

  

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NetChaplain
On 7/3/2018 at 2:22 PM, Just Mike said:

Unless a person begins to show evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that seed may well have landed on dry hard ground (hard heart).   

True, what one truly is will show (Mat 7:17). Thanks for your reply and comments!

Blessings!

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dpaulw

Ecclesiastes 3:14 KJV  I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

 

Matthew 25:46 KJV  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Romans 6:23 KJV  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

If you can lose it, it is not eternal! From the Cross to the Rapture is the dispensation of the Liberty in Christ. The liberty is that we received eternal life upon believing and do not have to worry about losing it as in the OT as they were not, could not, be seal with the Spirit of God and will not be after the Rapture. They had to and will have to endure until the end.

 

1 John 5:13 KJV  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 

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