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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
avbunyan

The Origen of all Modern Versions

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Avbunyan.

 

I can't count the number of times I have seen you KJV ONLY people come in a just raise all kinda of defense of why the KJV is the only Bible God has inspired. After a while you get people who have not witnessed this "come and go" tacit you KJV ONLY people have and do. In fact it was only about 6 months ago some one who called himself "KINGS JAMES ONLY already did that here. You see you are really not interested in joining in here and being a part of this forum, your intention is to get people here who have not seen you type just hit and go.

 

You are just repeating what you have read and learned by perhaps a speaker who came to your Fundamentalists Nondenominational Church. You personal have never really dug deep into what the TEXTUS RECEPTUS  and studied how it originated, as publisher's blurb, in Holland in 1633.

 

You are just regurgitating what you were taught and read, you have done no serious study on the truth of the KJV Bible. If you really knew the true facts of the TEXTUS RECEPTUS  then all you would not be here. Which by the way just how long do you plan on attempting to win KJV ONLY converts here? I know you type,  and someday if you ever do honest deep study you will be ashamed of you "hit and miss" stirring up people.

 

One more thing, I feel deeply sorry for you and pray you might take very seriously that you have been fed a lie. Do some serious study FOR YOUR SELF! Look up the work Dr. Allen A. MacRae and Dr. Robert C. Newman has written, that would be a good start to find the truth and the error of you ways. 

 

 

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9 hours have passed and no response. People on this forum we have seen people just like him aubunyan not too long ago. They come stir up a lot of excitement and just as fast as the came the leave. These are like the winds James talks about tossed about from place to place, and adding nothing to really help people understand Scripture better.

 

No Bible is perfect, and for the time the KJV Bible was good, but we have so many older manuscripts to use in new translations today. 

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31 minutes ago, Just Mike said:

9 hours have passed and no response. People on this forum we have seen people just like him aubunyan not too long ago. They come stir up a lot of excitement and just as fast as the came the leave. These are like the winds James talks about tossed about from place to place, and adding nothing to really help people understand Scripture better.

 

No Bible is perfect, and for the time the KJV Bible was good, but we have so many older manuscripts to use in new translations today. 

 

Farber - First I would like to respectfully decline your offer to debate. I thank you for wanting to debate me.  I would have been a very boring and frustrating debater for I do not know Greek/Hebrew at all and don’t even understand the manuscripts. My final authority is my King James Bible not early manuscripts, the “original Greek”, or anything else.   I judge everything by that book. If I had the originals as God as my witness I would keep them locked up in a safe while every once in a while putting the on display and let the “original worshipers” gaze upon them for 5 minutes while charging them $50.00!

 

Now you Mike – let’s chat shall we.  You had fun bashing me and judging me saying I am just another flash in the pan and have never seriously studied the issue.  Well, I can take your onslaught – doesn’t keep me awake enough to yawn.  I am 64 years old, been on these forums off and on for 20 years or so.  I’ve been reamed out by the best AV rejecters around.  Haven’t posted in over 5 years or so but wanted to come and test the waters a bit.   The waters are still filled with folks who don’t have a bible – ever learning and never able to come to the truth.

 

You say I haven’t studied the issue enough.  FYI – God saved my sorry hide back in March of 1981.  First thing that happened to me was a charismatic told me my AV was out of date and I needed the NASV which he said was easier to read and closer to the original Greek.  So I tossed my AV for I didn’t know any better.  But I sat under his ministry for a few months with his NASV and got nowhere.  I saw they didn’t know their bibles, were proud of their gifts, and worldly.  So one day I was reading a commentary on Revelation by a man who was a man and made sense.  He said in his commentary that if you have anything in your possession other than a King James Bible then throw it in the trash can. He made sense – I was learning bible and he talked like a man and acted like a man, was a soul winner and a teacher of men.  He had 2 PHDs, spoke and taught Greek and Hebrew for over 40 years and still believed the AV from cover to cover. So from that point on I’ve stuck with the AV.  For over 35 years or so I’ve studied the issue, read most of what is out there from both sides and examined the fruits of both sides. And by their fruits ye shall know them. So, Mike you are not going to show me anything I haven't heard in the last 35 years. 

 

You know why I stand by the AV?  I examined its fruits in history.  I’ve noticed that wherever that bible went souls were saved, lives were changed, and people became enlightened and separated.  But when I look at the fruits of the MVs I see confusion, worldliness, contemporary music, ignorance of the scriptures, topical preaching replacing expository preaching and teaching, wimpy men, manly women in the pulpits, a dying missionary movement, fleshly and worldly saints, emphasis on the gifts, etc.  It is sickening.  This modern Christianity came about the time that all these MVs started circulating and replacing the AV.

 

So Mike – King James folks drop in to see if there are any teachable folks and when they see folks are stuck in the mud blinded by the wicked one then they move on so as to redeem the time.  You see- we have a real conviction about the AV.  We believe it is the only true word of God and believe people need it while at the same time believe you have been duped by the wicked one in to rejecting the book God has used for over 400 years.

 

You brought up my ignorance of the truth and yet you can’t see where the MVs attack the doctrines of the faith.  Have you tried my suggestion of googling “New versions attack the deity of Christ” for example and seen all the study done on just one issue?  If you cannot see where the fundamentals of the faith have been attacked in your MVs then I wonder if you really know sound doctrine.   What kind of man would read a bible that makes Christ a begotten god in John 1:18 in the NASV?  What kind of real man could tolerate Christ having his beginning in time in Mic. 5:2?  What kind of man would read a bible that makes Christ a sinner by removing “without a cause” in Matt. 5:22?  Why would I listen to a man who can’t see that the MV he reads matches the Catholic bible?  When you said, “but we have so many older manuscripts to use in new translations today.” And cannot see that these “older” manuscripts are from Egypt written by a heretic philosopher named Origen then I certainly can’t show you anything – I leave you to the God of this universe.

 

Well – enough said, I trust you get my drift.  I don’t think I will be good for ya'll so I will bow out.  These endless debates get nowhere.  This forum has some nice folks and I’ve enjoyed chatting with you but I need to redeem the time for the days are evil. 

 

God bless

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38 minutes ago, avbunyan said:

 

Farber - First I would like to respectfully decline your offer to debate. I thank you for wanting to debate me.  I would have been a very boring and frustrating debater for I do not know Greek/Hebrew at all and don’t even understand the manuscripts. My final authority is my King James Bible not early manuscripts, the “original Greek”, or anything else. 

 

 Some/Many who embrace the KJV and attack other versions often make the claim that the newer versions attack the Deity of Christ (i.e. the fact that He is God), but when the KJV and the NASB are compared the NASB is superior in this area. You have stated more than once about Googling "New versions attack the deity of Christ” but yet will not defend this when given the chance. If you are unwilling to do so I think that perhaps you may be able to find just one person from any of those deceptive websites who is willing to defend what they so vociferously assert. I am willing to debate anyone about this issue.

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41 minutes ago, avbunyan said:

These endless debates get nowhere.  

 Because no one is willing to debate one on one. If he/she did do so the misguided cause they maintain would blow up in their face.

 Yes, I am irritated, because as Just Mike previously pointed out, KJV Only defenders come on here and ramble on and on and then after some time they run off. Instead of dealing with the facts they make lame excuses (such as you did) as to why a one on one debate is not possible. It's easier to hide, duck and dodge then face the reality that your deception is unable to be defended. It is simply a noxious weed in the garden of truth.

 

 

Edit: Instead of being labeled as KJV Only defenders they should more accurately be referred to as KJV Only pretenders, because of their inability/unwillingness to have their beliefs challenged and subsequently refuted.

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39 minutes ago, Faber said:

 Because no one is willing to debate one on one. If he/she did do so the misguided cause they maintain would blow up in their face.

 Yes, I am irritated, because as Just Mike previously pointed out, KJV Only defenders come on here and ramble on and on and then after some time they run off. Instead of dealing with the facts they make lame excuses (such as you did) as to why a one on one debate is not possible. It's easier to hide, duck and dodge then face the reality that your deception is unable to be defended. It is simply a noxious weed in the garden of truth.

 

 

Edit: Instead of being labeled as KJV Only defenders they should more accurately be referred to as KJV Only pretenders, because of their inability/unwillingness to have their beliefs challenged and subsequently refuted.

Faber I have debated the KJV Only people a few times and it just goes around in circles. The make a lot of hoopla and leave as quickly as they came. We had one here not too long ago too.

 

We are to be faithful to Jesus Christ not to any one Bible translation, then it becomes an idol such is the case for KJV BIBLE only people. Dr. James White has debated the KJVO people many many times, Look him up on youtube. God Bless.

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Thanks Mike. Yes, I am aware of the fine work of James White in this area.

Can't access youtube at the moment....China blocks it 😞

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14 hours ago, Faber said:

You have stated more than once about Googling "New versions attack the deity of Christ” but yet will not defend this when given the chance. If you are unwilling to do so I think that perhaps you may be able to find just one person from any of those deceptive websites who is willing to defend what they so vociferously assert.

Farber – you are hung up on debating folks – why? If I were to debate you all I would do is provide the type of research done by the men in those links below. They already did the research and put it won for one to check out.  You refused to try my exercise of googling the phase I gave so I went ahead and did the work for you.  You are welcome I really am a very cordial fella! LOL

”http://www.jesusisprecious.org/bible/deity_of_christ_and_modern_versions.htm

https://www.wholesomewords.org/etexts/freeman/pfdoctr.html

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Douglas_Stauffer/one_book-02.htm

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Douglas_Stauffer/one_book-02.htm

http://www.lovethetruth.com/bible/NIV/1_john_4-9.htm

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/532972937142570106/

http://www.av1611.org/attack.html

If you take the time to look at these “deceptive websites” they have already done the work for me so why should I burn out my wrists redoing the work they already did in order just to spoon feed you?  Why do want me to the same work and then present it to you in a debate – the info is already there for you to examine for yourself.  Are you lazy Farber?  Are you afraid they will take apart our MVs (which they do)?  Are you interested in finding truth or just shining in a debate?

Look at the link below – it is from a forum where a man listed the verses and how they read in the different bibles and made comments on them - what more do you want!

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/king-james-bible-vs-modern-translations-honoring-the-deity-of-jesus-christ.31865/

Look at these other “deceptive websites” and go ahead and refute their research.  You don’t need to debate me – you need to roll up your sleeves, swallow your pride and get to the work of serious research with an open mind.  Can you produce a work like the men below did?  Or are you just content to write a few lines on a forum?  Have you produced any position papers on your stand or again just what you have done on forums?  Do you have a website showing your research?  I had a website once a long time ago full of my research.  It wasn’t great but it was something!  I removed it because I could no longer keep it up due to health issues.

But one of the real reasons I declined your offer was because if you not see the problem in Mic 5:2 then you wouldn’t grasp other verses similar and I would be just spinning my wheels.

BTW – try googling "King James attacks the deity of Christ” and see what you come up with – LOL!!!

Try googling “doctrines changed in new versions” for grins.

http://www.gracebaptistpa.org/page53.html

https://www.wholesomewords.org/etexts/freeman/pfdoctr.html

https://www.biblebelievers.org.au/docchang.htm

https://www.scionofzion.com/ndc.htm

http://timberlinebaptist.org/sermons/doctrines_affected.html

You see Farber – you don’t need to debate me – you don’t need to have me present the material for it is out there if you are really interested.

God bless.

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13 hours ago, Just Mike said:

Dr. James White has debated the KJVO people many many times, Look him up on youtube. God Bless.

Hey Mike - since you asked Farber to google Mr. White’s debates I saved you both sometime - would you like to see what Dr. Ruckman had to say about Mr. White’s so called errors in the AV?  It is all in this one link if you are brave enough to see your MV defender’s work taken to the cleaners.

https://dorightchristians.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/peter-ruckmans-refutation-of-james-whites-7-errors-in-the-kjv/

 

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On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:16 AM, Faber said:

John 1:18 and 14:14 were already addressed, so that's two passages right there. Here are others (even more can be supplied if need be):

 

Titus 2:13

NASB: looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus

KJV: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

The NASB clearly applies 'God' to the Lord Jesus while the KJV is vague.

 

1 Peter 3:15

NASB: but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence

KJV: But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear

The 'Lord', in reference to the Lord Jesus, to whom we are to sanctify is the same "Lord" (YHWH) that is to be sanctified in Isaiah 8:13. The NASB bring this out much more clearly than the KJV.

 

2 Peter 1:1

NASB: Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

KJV: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

The NASB clearly applies 'God' to the Lord Jesus while the KJV is vague.

 

Jude 1:4

NASB: For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

KJV: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Greek word for 'Master' in the NASB is despotēs. The fact that it is used in reference to the Lord Jesus clearly demonstrates that He is God. The KJV obscures this truth (cf. 2 Timothy 2:21; 2 Peter 2:1 and Revelation 6:10).

 

Revelation 14:1

NASB: Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

KJV: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Having the name of the Son written on their foreheads gives much clearer proof that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of latreuō in Revelation 22:3. This is of vital importance since latreuō is properly due unto God alone.

 

avbunyan,

 I could not find one link from those you listed that addressed all the passages I mentioned above. There are more that can be added to the list, but you simply avoid debating the topic. I am asking you to do this because it is you who came on this web site posting your nonsense - those people in the links you provided have not done so. Thus it is you who are too lazy and scared to engage in a debate because your false teaching would be demolished. And that on the very site you joined in order to "correct" those who are members here that don't share your misunderstanding - so far not one person has agreed with you here. As the saying goes, "put up or shut up."

 You have plenty of time to search and site links as well as post here, but not enough time for a one on one debate about it?! Get real. Your garbage doctrine stinks.

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I've been reading a series of articles from the Tentmaker website.  https://tentmaker.org/kjvonly/kjv3.html    I found them interesting particularly this one:  https://tentmaker.org/kjvonly/kjv4.html

 

One question I have for the group is a clarification question:  If the KJV is the "only" accurate version (according to KJV advocates) then what do people groups from others languages use?   

 

With all the devotion some have to the KJV, you'd think that Paul himself carried around a KJV Bible!   It's such a crazy argument.

 

Also, who here has read "Bruchko" by Bruce Olson?  It relates to this topic.  

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3 minutes ago, Papa Zoom said:

One question I have for the group is a clarification question:  If the KJV is the "only" accurate version (according to KJV advocates) then what do people groups from others languages use?   

 My guess is that they would respond by saying if the Bible they have was translated from the English KJV then it would pass muster.

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1 minute ago, Faber said:

 My guess is that they would respond by saying if the Bible they have was translated from the English KJV then it would pass muster.

I was thinking that too.   In the book, Bruchko, a young missionary is trying to explain "faith" in Christ to a jungle people but there is no word or concept for the word "faith" in their language.  What's interesting is that the closest idea in that culture to faith had to do with their hammocks.  They hung their hammocks high off the ground to keep the bug from crawling on them in the night.  You had to have "trust" in the hammock strings that they would indeed hold you safely.  But again, there is no word for faith or trust in that language.  So how to communicate this idea of faith in Christ?  In the end, to put one's faith in Christ was to "Tie my hammock strings to Jesus" and then "new life" was conveyed in "And I speak a new language."   A very interesting book.  Hardly the language of the KJV.  But the idea is entirely Biblical.  Words only matter insofar as they accurately communicate the truth of a thing.  In this case, God's word.  The NASB isn't perfect but it does a much better job than does the KJV.  So does the NIV but I also like the ESV.   

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15 hours ago, avbunyan said:

My final authority is my King James Bible not early manuscripts, the “original Greek”, or anything else.   I judge everything by that book.

This is a very problematic thing to say.  The KJV, like all versions, are not "God's words" but are translations of copies of copies of copies of original documents that were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  And yet a KJV only advocate prefers a translation to the originals!  Errors and all!   This is very telling.  It's very simple:  Older manuscripts are more reliable.  They are closer to the original autographs.  That should matter but to the KJV only people it apparently is meaningless.   

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This is useless to communicate or debate with King James Only people. There mind is made up, and NOTHING you say or due to try to show them they are wrong will have any effect on them.  

 

Until the Holy Spirit brakes their hard shell and allows the truth to set them free. The KJV ONLY is a Cult, a religion that has for its center of worship the King James Bible!  We all are wasting our time!

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2 hours ago, Faber said:

avbunyan,

1. I could not find one link from those you listed that addressed all the passages I mentioned above. 

2. You have plenty of time to search and site links as well as post here, but not enough time for a one on one debate about it?!

3.Get real. Your garbage doctrine stinks.

1. They obvious did not think the verses were problem verses worth spending time with.  Plus those verses don't change any doctrines or created issues. So what about the verses they did present?  

2. I told you why I don't debate - I have never debated.  You multi-version folks have no final authority so they can never be - pinned down.

3. Are you saying that believing the AV is perfect and without error is garbage doctrine?  Well, millions upon millions believed this "garbage doctrine" up until  middle of the 20th century or so. There were more revivals under men using an AV than today nd  the Egyptian manuscripts were available but the soul winners wouldn't use them.

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1 hour ago, Papa Zoom said:

1.One question I have for the group is a clarification question:  If the KJV is the "only" accurate version (according to KJV advocates) then what do people groups from others languages use?   

 

2.With all the devotion some have to the KJV, you'd think that Paul himself carried around a KJV Bible!   It's such a crazy argument.

Hey Papa:

1. This is often brought up - Many a missionary peached from the AV while an interpreter assisted.  God blessed  this. Missionaries tried t o get a translation into the language of the people.  They used the AV itself or the Greek the AV was based upon - God blessed. 

 

2.

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1 hour ago, Papa Zoom said:

1. One question I have for the group is a clarification question:  If the KJV is the "only" accurate version (according to KJV advocates) then what do people groups from others languages use?   

 

2. With all the devotion some have to the KJV, you'd think that Paul himself carried around a KJV Bible!   It's such a crazy argument.

1. Missionaries preached from an AV while someone interpreted - God blessed this. Missionaries tried to translate the AV into their native tongue using the AV itself or the Greek/Hebrew the AV was based upon.

 

2. If Paul were around today he would use the AV for the AV is divided into chapters and verses, paragraph markers, etc.  The originals didn't.  Finally he knew the common language of the day is English.

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2 hours ago, avbunyan said:

Hey Mike - since you asked Farber to google Mr. White’s debates I saved you both sometime - would you like to see what Dr. Ruckman had to say about Mr. White’s so called errors in the AV?  It is all in this one link if you are brave enough to see your MV defender’s work taken to the cleaners.

https://dorightchristians.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/peter-ruckmans-refutation-of-james-whites-7-errors-in-the-kjv/

 

I have read and listened to more KJV ONLY speakers that you would believe. I don't need to defend Dr. James White, but I have NEVER seen anyone in the KJV ONLY group win a debate against him. Why do you think that is?

 

To be open and blunt you have managed to get a large number of responses, so you can chalk up a bunch of marks for getting  lots of posts to your KJV ONLY  stuff. So why not move on to another Christian group? Or perhaps is the last one that has not banned you?  Yet!

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1 hour ago, avbunyan said:

If Paul were around today he would use the AV for the AV is divided into chapters and verses, paragraph markers, etc.  The originals didn't.  Finally he knew the common language of the day is English.

I doubt it.   Paul would likely set you straight.  This is an issue that is on the level of "The Judaizers."  It's meant not to unify but to divide.  I'd never go to a KJV only church and I'd avoid anyone who endlessly promoted that version.  To me it's not a sign of maturity in the faith, but a lack thereof.   Your comment that you'd prefer the words of the KJV translators to the original Autographs tell me people like you need to be avoided.  It smacks of a cult.  

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1 hour ago, Papa Zoom said:

It smacks of a cult.  

Very  typical response Papa.  Very scary for you may be the one who will side with the government and out me in jail because I believe the book God blessed for over 400 years.  We do not follow a man - we do not shun saints who do not believe the AV - we do not force people to believe like we do.  When a person wanders into our church with a modern version we do not surround, blast him, make fun of his bible, and ask him to leave - we've got more grace than you think.  We accept him  where he is and trust God  to open the door to a discussion on the matter.  I may come across rough and sarcastic on forums but off the forums I've got grace, patience, and charity.  I'm one of the most cordial and respectful saints you will find but on forums folks are blinded and sometimes need a kick in their backsides to get their attention.  

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3 hours ago, Just Mike said:

I have read and listened to more KJV ONLY speakers that you would believe. I don't need to defend Dr. James White, but I have NEVER seen anyone in the KJV ONLY group win a debate against him. Why do you think that is?

 

To be open and blunt you have managed to get a large number of responses, so you can chalk up a bunch of marks for getting  lots of posts to your KJV ONLY  stuff. So why not move on to another Christian group? Or perhaps is the last one that has not banned you?  Yet!

Well let’s pause and summarize shall we?  I know you folks are tired of avbunyan – I am too. Too much of avbunyan gives indigestion.   LOL

1.     The initial post stated all the modern versions originated from the work of a heathen philosopher named Origen from Alexandria, Egypt in the 3rd century. This is the crux of the issue. You folks never addressed this very well so we got off track chasing rabbits. 

2.     Origen denied the fundamentals of the faith and his twisted doctrinal views are reflected in the modern versions hence the onslaught of sites documenting these errors which of course you deny.

3.     When you correct a King James Bible you are using Origen’s manuscripts to do so.

4.     There are 2 lines of bibles – Origen’s work from Egypt which forms the basis of all the MVs and then there is the line which originated from Asia Minor from which the AV comes out of.

5.     I’ve found that most of the time when a person wants to correct the words of an AV it is because they do not understand it.

 

All the comparisons and the bickering over the different verse readings are a waste a time until you folks come to grips with the fact the your MVs are based on Origen’s work.

 

It appears to me that most of your gripes about the AV revolves around the archaic language and the “fetch a compass” type of phrases.  Mercy – if you can’t run with the footman now then how will you handle it the horsemen come?!?!?! And if you think you have found an error and think you need to change it then you will go to Egypt to get a “better reading”.

You cannot or will never find a doctrinal error in the AV.  You cannot google “doctrinal errors in the AV”. 

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