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Civilwarbuff

Can a person be Christian and actively support abortion?

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Civilwarbuff

This question is related to another thread.  Please restrict answers to abortion only.

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reformed baptist
1 hour ago, Civilwarbuff said:

This question is related to another thread.  Please restrict answers to abortion only.

I'm sorry, but I can't the answer with that restriction I'm afraid!

 

All Christians:

1) Sin (Christians commit adultery, tell lies, are selfish etc)

2) Misunderstand points of doctrine

 

And we saved by grace despite everything we get wrong. 

 

And besides it is far too simplistic - what scenario do you have in mind?

 

1) A new believer just converted who is largely untaught

2) A 'so called' mature believer who has heard the teaching and rejected it  

3) A believer who has been taught that life does not begin at conception

4) Maybe they have been taught in certain situations (eg to save the mothers life) it is acceptable

5) They don't support abortion - but they support IVF (which includes aborting babies)

 

I know people in each of those groups mentioned above and whilst I believe they are all wrong I'm not prepared to write any of them off as unsaved. I would say a genuine Christian cannot consistently hold to the Christian faith while supporting abortion, but none of us are utterly consistent.  

Edited by reformed baptist

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Becky
Moderator

No.

We Christians are at different 'mile markers' in our walk with the Lord Jesus. I would not expect a new Christian to have the full scope of the Scriptures.  As we study and grow in Him and His Word we should be developing the mind of Christ. 

 

Deu 12:30  Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 
Deu 12:31  Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 
 

2Ki 17:17  And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. 


2Ki 17:18  Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. 
Jer 19:4  Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; 
Jer 19:5  They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: 

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reformed baptist
12 minutes ago, Becky said:

No.

How is that consistent with salvation by grace? 

 

Yes, the grace saves us, is also the grace that changes us - but we will only be perfectly changed at the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. 

 

Quote

We Christians are at different 'mile markers' in our walk with the Lord Jesus. I would not expect a new Christian to have the full scope of the Scriptures.  As we study and grow in Him and His Word we should be developing the mind of Christ. 

No Christian has come to the full scope of scripture (I certainly haven't) - we will all take misunderstandings and sins to the grave with us! Why can one not take a misunderstanding about abortion to the grave and still be a believer? 

 

Quote

 

Deu 12:30  Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 
Deu 12:31  Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 
 

2Ki 17:17  And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. 


2Ki 17:18  Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. 
Jer 19:4  Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; 
Jer 19:5  They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: 

 

Yes abortion is wrong (sinful) - I assumed that din't need to be stated based on the question - but that wasn't the question :RpS_thumbup:

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Innerfire89

If someone says they're a Christian and pro choice then they're in serious error. Either they don't understand what abortion is or their newly converted, or both. 

 

What topic is this based on?

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Becky
Moderator

Deu_21:9  So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD

Deu_27:25  Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen. 
Psa_106:38  And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. 
 

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Becky
Moderator

@reformed baptist Do you show the same 'grace' to one who has murdered his father or mother? Sister or brother? Does the age of the dead make a difference in your understanding? 

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Civilwarbuff

Guess I should have emphasized this word:

Can a person be Christian and actively support abortion?

There are churches as well as individuals who claim to be Christian while actively supporting abortion.

 

7 Christian Denominations with Most Liberal Stance on Abortion

https://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/christian-denominations-abortion-liberal/2015/11/05/id/643614/

 

And please as I noted earlier restrict the comments to abortion.  Please feel free to start another thread on any other sinful action.

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reformed baptist
15 minutes ago, Becky said:

@reformed baptist Do you show the same 'grace' to one who has murdered his father or mother? Sister or brother? Does the age of the dead make a difference in your understanding? 

I believe I answered that quite adequately in my first post :RpS_thumbup:

 

Any christian is capable of just about any sin - it is the grace of God that keeps us from it! And as far as I can see in the Bible Jesus Christ was clear that the there is only one sin that never be forgiven (and it wasn't murder) - so yes I do believe a christian can commit murder under certain circumstances either of an adult, a child, an unborn child and even themselves (mental illness being one such circumstance). Just like abortion, I am not condoning any of these things, or seeking to diminish the sinfulness of them - they are all wicked acts - but then so is every act of hatred/ anger  I harbor in my heart  (Matt 5:22)! We are saved by grace, despite our sin, not because of our works, and to say that there are certain sins that grace cannot overcome is to diminish grace. 

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Civilwarbuff
30 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

What topic is this based on?

The last several comments here:

You really have to wonder what these people are thinking?

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reformed baptist
5 minutes ago, Civilwarbuff said:

Guess I should have emphasized this word:

Can a person be Christian and actively support abortion?

 

I saw the word and I did not mention categories of Christians where the support is more passive! 

 

5 minutes ago, Civilwarbuff said:

And please as I noted earlier restrict the comments to abortion.  Please feel free to start another thread on any other sinful action.

No can do - it's an arbitrary restriction that stops us discussing the subject and it suggests that we are treat abortion differently to any other sin - if I can't ask you "can a christian tell lies and still be a christian?" I can't discuss this question with you - so I'm guessing I'm done here

Edited by reformed baptist

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Civilwarbuff
1 minute ago, reformed baptist said:

I saw the word and I did not mention categories of Christians where the support is more passive! 

 

No can do - it's an arbitrary restriction that stops us discussing the subject and it suggests that we are treat abortion differently to any other sin - if I can't ask you "can a christian tell lies and still be a christian?" I can't discuss this question with you!  

Then rather than derail the thread please drop out......

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Becky
Moderator

I read reformed baptist to be saying a Christian can hire a killer and still be a Christian. I say a Christian would not do so. 

Justifying innocent blood is not a Christian thing . 

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reformed baptist
Just now, Civilwarbuff said:

Then rather than derail the thread please drop out......

I haven't derailed the thread - but as I said I will drop out - the fact that you have put this arbitrary restriction that stops a person bringing the whole counsel of God to bear on the subject suggests that you have a predetermined answer that your not prepared to have challenged - the bible deals with sin in categories my freind - abortion fits under the category of murder  

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reformed baptist
10 minutes ago, Becky said:

I read reformed baptist to be saying a Christian can hire a killer and still be a Christian. I say a Christian would not do so. 

Justifying innocent blood is not a Christian thing . 

@WilliamAnd I wish people would deal with what I said and not misrepresent me - especially not mods - bearing false witness is equally sinful to murder - but I would never suggest such behavior means your not a Christian! 

 

Clearly I was wrong to return to this forum!  If you will not show me the grace of dealing with what I actually said rather then twisting my words I am done for good - mods set the example of behaviors for others to follow :RpS_thumbdn:

Edited by reformed baptist

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Becky
Moderator

Abortionist are hired killers. 

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ConfessionalLutheran
46 minutes ago, reformed baptist said:

@WilliamAnd I wish people would deal with what I said and not misrepresent me - especially not mods - bearing false witness is equally sinful to murder - but I would never suggest such behavior means your not a Christian! 

 

Clearly I was wrong to return to this forum!  If you will not show me the grace of dealing with what I actually said rather then twisting my words I am done for good - mods set the example of behaviors for others to follow :RpS_thumbdn:

@Becky is actually an admin, rather than a moderator, fyi. I don't want to stoke this any hotter than it already is, so I'm just going to restrict myself to that one comment. God bless your Trinity Sunday today.

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Civilwarbuff

Abortion is one of those subjects that divide Christians and the country as a whole while at the same time offering legal and political cover for supporting it at the same time.  Most of the arguments I have heard for abortion center around the Bible not explicitly condemning/forbidding abortion, equating legalization with moral equivalency or some mixing of the 2.  So, should an active supporter of abortion be considered a Christian?

 

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Knotical

Quite honestly I do not see how there can be any grey area with this issue.  Abortion is the killing of an innocent human being.  As in any other situation the killing of an innocent human being, including war and other cases where innocent bystanders are affected, it is looked upon with horror and justice is immediately demanded for the offending party.

 

It is quite simple for a true believer in Christ to convey to a new Christian that abortion is wrong.  Any church that would openly support abortion could be considered no longer under the stewardship of the Holy Spirit and should be avoided at all costs.

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William
Staff
2 hours ago, reformed baptist said:

@WilliamAnd I wish people would deal with what I said and not misrepresent me - especially not mods - bearing false witness is equally sinful to murder - but I would never suggest such behavior means your not a Christian! 

 

Clearly I was wrong to return to this forum!  If you will not show me the grace of dealing with what I actually said rather then twisting my words I am done for good - mods set the example of behaviors for others to follow :RpS_thumbdn:

Calm down. I think the first mistake and only mistake on your part brother is suggesting that staff here is an example to be followed. We both I'm sure agree it is Christ Jesus that we are to follow. We are fallible people and often make mistakes. Lets demonstrate the same grace towards others we expect others to demonstrate to us. 

 

I reread your post and I'm glad you clarified. As you know this is a very touchy subject and sometimes it is difficult to separate our emotion from the topic at hand. While I'd have a hard time that a born again believer would after conversion commit abortion, I agree with you that even the sin of abortion can be forgiven. Moments before I came on and saw this dispute I was talking to my mother over morning coffee. We were discussing one of the screen names I go by online ~ Shimei. 

 

Perhaps someone may glean from this conversation as to its relevance here. I said, I admire Shimei. Though he picked up rocks, spit and cursed at king David and rained on his parade, Shimei was right. He called David a bloody man. I think it ironic that David was not allowed to construct the Temple dedicated to God for this very reason. Shimei really got to David, remembering him on his death bed, saying Shimei put a bitter curse on him back in the day. 

 

I think if someone like David could fall under the grace of God, so can someone having an abortion. But God forbid that we sin so grace abounds Romans 6:1 , and also that we deliberately sin because no sacrifice can cover these sins Hebrews 10:26. As for me the word Christian can even cover an unbeliever that is setting out to learn about Jesus or from Jesus.

 

It saddens me that while I'm away with this crappy tethered internet connection we cannot demonstrate grace. R.B., maybe I shouldn't say this, but you have my favor despite our differing theology. However, I'm asking you to take it down a notch, not by your actions but by your knowledge. Sometimes educated people are the brightest light in the room and they drown out the others. We often need dim our light in order to even see or understand the other dimly lit candles. Your office in the church, time in as a Christian, experience, and knowledge surpasses mine, brother. I know you'd treat me as someone that makes mistakes, please consider doing the same to Becky, a volunteer staff member which has come to the rescue during my absence. 

 

As for Becky,  we'll talk in private. Giving her the benefit of the doubt she took an anti-liberal position, one which has plagued this site from time to time. As for Liberalism or Conservatism I know that these terms mean something different in the political arena from America to the EU. I think some of these controversial topics we've seen you engaged in R.B. are in part to do with American ignorance thinking the Conservative party is the one and the same in the U.S. Members are trying to edify you or align you with the party platform. Perhaps sometime you may educate us on the difference, that is the difference between the Liberal and Conservative party in America vs EU. 

 

Back on subject, I'd hate to lose someone I read from daily. R.B. it would be a great loss to this community if you left in an emotional outburst. Please educate rather than respond in like manner when you are on the receiving end of what you deem inappropriate. 

 

God bless,

William

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Innerfire89
3 hours ago, Civilwarbuff said:

The last several comments here:

You really have to wonder what these people are thinking?

Sorry, I meant to ask what thread is your question related to.

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Civilwarbuff

It just popped up in that general thread for several posts......you know how those thread can run.  Sometimes it is better to start another thread to address it than let it wander all over the landscape.

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Papa Zoom

Okay, here I go.  First: @Becky is very passionate about the subject of abortion.  She gives no quarter and accepts no excuses.  Once a person understands her passion it's easier to allow room for strong emotions.   It's an emotional topic and IF we were talking about killing a newborn, the majority of people would see the issue just as Becky sees it.  (sorry if I'm speaking for you sis so correct me if I'm wrong).

 

You see, many people see abortion the same as killing of a newborn or even a toddler.  And ultimately, what's the difference?  Location, size, level of development but that's pretty much it.  

 

I see this issue as Becky sees it.  The abortionist is a hired killer and abortion, while lawful, is still an unjust killing of an innocent human being.  In my world that's murder.  And while I'm at it, PP is an organization that profits off the blood of the innocent.  

 

That said, can a person who actively supports abortion be a Christian?   Yes.  Maybe.  I'm leaving that up to God.   Many people are ignorant on this subject and don't understand this issue beyond propagandist phrases like "a woman's right to choose" or "reproductive rights."  These are code phrases for killing unborn children IMO.  

 

If someone professes faith in Christ, I leave that to God to decide if their faith is genuine.  I would be troubled however if I knew of a Believer in Jesus that also actively supported abortion.  I would personally question their understanding of what it means to "love the least of these" and also question their view of what Christ expects of His followers.  Loving others as we love ourselves certainly cannot simply apply after completely exiting the birth canal.  

 

 

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