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reformed baptist

Understand fallacies and strawman in postings

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reformed baptist
11 minutes ago, Truthfrees said:

i think the op was meaning lying about other people - bearing false witness - 

 

And that happens frequently on forums like this one across the internet - every time someone creates a straw man, or assigns motives to another that is bearing false witness against another person 

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Truthfrees
28 minutes ago, reformed baptist said:

And that happens frequently on forums like this one across the internet - every time someone creates a straw man, or assigns motives to another that is bearing false witness against another person 

that's a good point

 

and imo that kind of thing originates with people disliking each other first and then posting to each other in this unloving attitude

 

if we would love each other because God loves us all - and then post to each other we would have very good life-changing discussions

 

tearing each other down is so much a waste of time - and it's ultra desctructive

 

God bless you my friend

 

 

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Truthfrees
37 minutes ago, reformed baptist said:

every time someone creates a straw man

i hear this term all the time - and i still don't get what it means exactly - it gets used a lot in debate forums

 

i looked it up in the dictionary and i really don't get it

 

is a straw man pretending someone said something they didn't say? - and you know they didn't say it but you accuse them of it anyway?

 

imo what i mostly see is people who misunderstand each other and then accuse each other of straw man arguments

 

on rare occasions i see people purposely twist another person's words - but that only shows they know what the other person meant - and have a warped conscience that causes them to purposely and knowingly warp other people's statements

Edited by Truthfrees

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Origen
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13 minutes ago, Truthfrees said:

i hear this term all the time - and i still don't get what it means exactly - it gets used a lot in debate forums

 

i looked it up in the dictionary and i really don't get it

 

is a straw man pretending someone said something they didn't say? - and you know they didn't say it but you accuse them of it anyway?

Basically a straw man is when someone misrepresent another's argument to make it easier to attack.  It is an informal fallacy.

 

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reformed baptist
7 minutes ago, Truthfrees said:

is a straw man pretending someone said something they didn't say? - and you know they didn't say it but you accuse them of it anyway?

A straw man is a false representation of your 'opponents' argument that you feel able to attack and tear down, so for example, "Calvinism turns us into robots" is an obvious one - however often they are more subtle.  

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Truthfrees
14 minutes ago, Origen said:

Basically a straw man is when someone misrepresent another's argument to make it easier to attack.  It is an informal fallacy.

 

so do they do it maliciously? - they know they are twisting another person's words?

 

thank you for the video - i will watch it

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Truthfrees
16 minutes ago, reformed baptist said:

A straw man is a false representation of your 'opponents' argument that you feel able to attack and tear down, so for example, "Calvinism turns us into robots" is an obvious one - however often they are more subtle.  

if someone's impression of calvinism is that it turns one into a robot then isn't that really a misunderstanding?

 

i'm wof and people mistakenly think i am a money lover - they clearly think that - but i clearly am not - and neither is wof

 

i am mj and people mistakenly think i think i am saved by keeping God's laws  - but i don't think that - and neither do mj's or jews think that

 

i am grace ability and people mistakenly think i believe in greasy grace - which i don't

 

so what is the difference between a misunderstanding and a straw man?

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Origen
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10 hours ago, Truthfrees said:

so do they do it maliciously? - they know they are twisting another person's words?

 

thank you for the video - i will watch it

I would say most of the time yes.  However it could be the case that someone does not truly understand the argument and then misrepresents it.  I would like to think once it was pointed out that person would\could then see the problem and adjust their thinking on the matter.

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Truthfrees
32 minutes ago, Origen said:

Basically a straw man is when someone misrepresent another's argument to make it easier to attack.  It is an informal fallacy.

 

wow - what an excellent mini video

 

so basically straw man is rephrasing another person's statements and claiming they said something they did not say?

 

that is quite aggravating to have someone do this

 

it means they are not understanding - or they are purposely lying

 

God Bless you 

 

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Origen
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Just now, Truthfrees said:

wow - what an excellent mini video

 

so basically straw man is rephrasing another person's statements and claiming they said something they did not say?

 

that is quite aggravating to have someone rephrase our words and then

 

God Bless you 

 

Yes!  You are exactly right (i.e. "claim we said something we didn't say").  Glad you like it.

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Truthfrees
19 minutes ago, Origen said:

I would say most of the time yes.  However it could be the case that someone does not truly understand the argument and then represents it.  I would like to think once it was pointed out that person would\could then see the problem and adjust their thinking on the matter.

it's funny that the only people who have ever accused me of straw-manning them were actually always rephrasing my words

 

i didn't know what i had done to be accused of straw-manning - and no matter how many questions i asked they could never clarify how i had straw-manned them - they insisted i knew very well what i had done 

 

and yet i had to keep telling them to stop rephrasing my words - they were awful for rephrasing everything i said - and i mean everything - they could not quote me accurately if their life depended on it 

 

seems kinda funny now to find out they were the one doing all the straw-manning 

 

God Bless you - thanks for taking the time to explain this

 

i think though i will use "re-phrasing" instead of "straw-man" - because the 1st is more clear than the 2nd imo

 

 

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Origen
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9 minutes ago, Truthfrees said:

it's funny that the only people who have ever accused me of straw-manning them were actually always rephrasing my words

 

i didn't know what i had done to be accused of straw-manning - and no matter how many questions i asked they could never clarify how i had straw-manned them

 

and yet i had to keep telling them to stop rephrasing my words - they were awful for rephrasing everything i said - and i mean everything - they could not quote me accurately if their life depended on it 

 

seems kinda funny now to find out they were doing the one doing all the straw manning 

 

God Bless you - thanks for taking the time to explain this

 

i think though i will use "re-phrasing" instead of "straw-man" - because the 1st is more clear than the 2nd imo

 

 

I would say that sometimes we have to rephrase to make something clearer.  The problem is the person doing it has the responsibility to be honest and fair giving the other person the benefit of the doubt.  

 

WHAT AM I SAYING!  We are talking about human beings here.  That is not going to happen.  Just kidding, kind of.  lol

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Truthfrees
1 minute ago, Origen said:

I would say that sometimes we have to rephrase to make something clearer.  The problem is the person doing have the responsibility to be honest and fair giving the other person the benefit of the doubt.  

 

WHAT AM I SAYING!  We are talking about human beings here.  That is not going to happen.  Just kidding, kind of.  lol

yes  - so i guess it all boils down to thinking well of others and being fair / kind to them

 

love looks for peace and mutual good in a discussion

 

bad motives seeks to destroy / conquer the other - especially in a debate some people get really extreme about doing anything to win 

 

 

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Becky
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9 hours ago, Origen said:

I would say most of the time yes.  However it could be the case that someone does not truly understand the argument and then represents it.  I would like to think once it was pointed out that person would\could then see the problem and adjust their thinking on the matter.

Falling into the does not understand group thats me.  Some times folks make a statements that hit my emotions.  Often when i respond from my emotions some tells yells strawman at me.  

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Truthfrees
22 minutes ago, Becky said:

Falling into the does not understand group thats me.  Some times folks make a statements that hit my emotions.  Often when i respond from my emotions some tells yells strawman at me.  

yes - i don't like that straw-man accusation either - i think i am asking a good question and get told it's a straw-man - i find you to be a very clear thinker - and brief - i like concise posters - they pack more power into fewer words

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Origen
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31 minutes ago, Becky said:

Falling into the does not understand group thats me.  Some times folks make a statements that hit my emotions.  Often when i respond from my emotions some tells yells strawman at me.  

I am sorry to say there is no shortage of armchair logicians.  They have no idea what formal and informal fallacies are.  I see on this forum all the time.  That is something we just have to live with I guess.

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Becky
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Looked up both formal and informal fallacies. I still do not understand them. 

When i am cooking i understand what a pinch of this or a good bunch of that means , those same words mean different amounts when cooking different stuff. 

Had teachers understood learning disabilities 65 years ago i might have a better command of English. I do politely envy those who can write well.  

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Origen
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4 minutes ago, Becky said:

Looked up both formal and informal fallacies. I still do not understand them. 

When i am cooking i understand what a pinch of this or a good bunch of that means , those same words mean different amounts when cooking different stuff. 

Had teachers understood learning disabilities 65 years ago i might have a better command of English. I do politely envy those who can write well.  

 Formal and informal fallacies are defects in reasoning.

 

"A formal fallacy is one which involves an error in the form, arrangement or technical structure of an argument."

 

"An informal fallacy involves such things as: the misuse of language such as words or grammar, misstatements of fact or opinion, misconceptions due to underlying presuppositions, or just plain illogical sequences of thought."

 

 

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Becky
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10 minutes ago, Origen said:

 Formal and informal fallacies are defects in reasoning.

 

"A formal fallacy is one which involves an error in the form, arrangement or technical structure of an argument."

 

"An informal fallacy involves such things as: the misuse of language such as words or grammar, misstatements of fact or opinion, misconceptions due to underlying presuppositions, or just plain illogical sequences of thought."

 

 

Sheesh  well over my head. Thanks for trying, I will listen to the video a couple more times.. :) 

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Origen
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On 5/5/2018 at 5:16 PM, Becky said:

Sheesh  well over my head. Thanks for trying, I will listen to the video a couple more times.. 🙂

Let me see if I can help.  As I pointed out "a formal fallacy is one which involves an error in the form, arrangement or technical structure of an argument."  This has to do with how the argument is formed.

 

This argument's form is correct:

1. All men are mortal. (All a are b)

2. Socrates is a man. (c is a)

C. Therefore Socrates is mortal. (Therefore c is b)

 

The above argument is both sound and valid.  It commits no formal fallacy.

 

This argument's form is not correct.

1. All published novelist write book.

2. John writes books.

C. Therefore John is a published novelist.

 

The form of this argument is flawed.  Premises 2 is the problem.  While is it true that all published novelist write books not everyone who writes a book is published.  Thus it does not follow from premise 1.

 

Equivocation is an example of an informal fallacy.

1. A feather is light.

2. What is light cannot be dark.

C. Therefore a feather cannot be dark.

 

The meaning of word "light" in premise 1 is not the same as premise 2.  That is an informal fallacy.  It has nothing to do with the form but the context.  "Light" in premise 1 refers to weight but in premise 2 it refers to color\shade.  The meaning has changed.

 

This thread is getting way off topic with the study of logic so we ought to put this aside for now.

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reformed baptist
12 hours ago, Truthfrees said:

yes - i don't like that straw-man accusation either - i think i am asking a good question and get told it's a straw-man 

That is because your question is based your own a priori assumptions, and if your debating me then my arguments are based on my own presuppositions - hence we end up talking past each other. 

 

The classic example is the Arminian who just quotes John 3:16 in conversation with a Calvinist.  To his mind that is a clear argument, however the Calvinist that man is setting scripture against scripture (now that isn't a strawman but it is an example of how we talk past each other based upon our a priori assumptions)

 

12 hours ago, Becky said:

Falling into the does not understand group thats me.  Some times folks make a statements that hit my emotions.  Often when i respond from my emotions some tells yells strawman at me. 

There's nothing wrong with misunderstanding (I get misunderstood loads, and I misunderstand loads - usually because I am trying to rush) - it's how we respond to any correction of our misunderstanding that matters! Are we prepared to admit our mistake and move one in trying out best to fairly represent what the other person is saying? 

 

You see the point is, I know what I am trying to say and I have a clearer understanding of what I believe then my opponent does - so when that opponent persists in misrepresenting my arguments it is pointless to continue in discussion with them. In fact all we are doing in continuing is allowing that person to sin even more (we are giving them more opportunity to bear false witness against us.)   

  

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Truthfrees
36 minutes ago, reformed baptist said:

That is because your question is based your own a priori assumptions, and if your debating me then my arguments are based on my own presuppositions - hence we end up talking past each other. 

 

The classic example is the Arminian who just quotes John 3:16 in conversation with a Calvinist.  To his mind that is a clear argument, however the Calvinist that man is setting scripture against scripture (now that isn't a strawman but it is an example of how we talk past each other based upon our a priori assumptions)

yes - true - we each have worked through scripture the best we can to come up with a paradigm - it usually involves a lifetime of experience and scripture study - so it is natural that we misunderstand each other

 

as long as we don't rephrase each other's statements and claim the other is saying something they aren't we should be able to ask questions to clarify what each other is saying

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Becky
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This topic has been split off another thread. When fallacies became the theme it was of topic. Here is hoping some understanding comes to light , for those who just dont 'get it' and those who do .

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Becky
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18 hours ago, Origen said:

This argument's form is correct:

1. All men are mortal. (All a are b)

2. Socrates is a man. (c is a)

C. Therefore Socrates is mortal. (Therefore c is b)

 

The above argument is both sound and valid.  It commits no formal fallacy.

 

This argument's form is not correct.

1. All published novelist write book.

2. John writes books.

C. Therefore John is a published novelist.

 

The form of this argument is flawed.  Premises 2 is the problem.  While is it true that all published novelist write books not everyone who writes a book is published.  Thus it does not follow from premise 1.

The simplicity of the above is smooth and easy to follow. Post are not often written so simple. 

 

When a poster says something that strikes a nerve in me , I respond it what i see/feel then shut out wiht being told that is a strawman. Just maybe me seeing what the other guy calls a straw man is because he did not make himself clear. 

Seems i do remember from school some thing about the speaker speaking to his audience . 

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Origen
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57 minutes ago, Becky said:

The simplicity of the above is smooth and easy to follow. Post are not often written so simple. 

Very true.

 

57 minutes ago, Becky said:

When a poster says something that strikes a nerve in me , I respond it what i see/feel then shut out wiht being told that is a strawman.

That is a normal reaction.  We often react emotionally first, so to speak from the gut.  However we cannot refute arguments with emotions.  We need to think clearly, rationally, logically.

 

57 minutes ago, Becky said:

Just maybe me seeing what the other guy calls a straw man is because he did not make himself clear. 

Very often the term strawman is used incorrectly.  Some used it as a catch all term.  When you see that know the person does not know what they are talking about.

 

57 minutes ago, Becky said:

Just maybe me seeing what the other guy calls a straw man is because he did not make himself clear. 

Agreed!

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