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Innerfire89

Experimental predestinarianism?

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I was listening to sermon and then  the preacher started talking about Calvinism and expermental perdestinaries.

I never heard the term before, he explained it to mean that you won't know if you're one of the elect until you go before God to be judged.

 

I don't know, it could be a part of Calvinism I've overlooked or something, or the guy didn't know what he was talking about.

I can't make sense of it yet, he was trying to make the case that Calvinism overlooks that one can loose reward in heaven because of the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. As a Calvinist I always believed that you could lose your rewards in heaven, if you walk away from Christ , you were never with him to begin with. 

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2 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

I was listening to sermon and then  the preacher started talking about Calvinism and expermental perdestinaries.

I never heard the term before, he explained it to mean that you won't know if you're one of the elect until you go before God to be judged.

 

I don't know, it could be a part of Calvinism I've overlooked or something, or the guy didn't know what he was talking about.

I can't make sense of it yet, he was trying to make the case that Calvinism overlooks that one can loose reward in heaven because of the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. As a Calvinist I always believed that you could lose your rewards in heaven, if you walk away from Christ , you were never with him to begin with. 

I don't know who you were listening to, or what the context of those statements were but from what you say it is possible that you were listening to a hyper-calvinist. Hyper-calvinism is a funny beast in that it makes salvation so mystical that you can't know if your saved or not - it robs you of assurance just as much as semi-pelagianism does  - of course I could be way off the mark and the preacher might be going to other way! 

 

We are told in scripture to make our election sure,  2 Pet 1:10 and Paul tells us how to do that in Phil 2:12-13

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Here's some pretty extensive reading from a pretty reliable source on the topic: http://www.apuritansmind.com/puritan-favorites/william-perkins/perkins-on-predestination-and-preaching/

 

God bless,

William

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9 hours ago, reformed baptist said:

I don't know who you were listening to, or what the context of those statements were but from what you say it is possible that you were listening to a hyper-calvinist. Hyper-calvinism is a funny beast in that it makes salvation so mystical that you can't know if your saved or not - it robs you of assurance just as much as semi-pelagianism does  - of course I could be way off the mark and the preacher might be going to other way! 

 

We are told in scripture to make our election sure,  2 Pet 1:10 and Paul tells us how to do that in Phil 2:12-13

The topic was eternal security, In the view that the preacher held, inheriting the kingdom of heaven isn't the same as entering heaven, so for interpreting verses like Galatians 5:21, his view is that if the wicked don't have reward in heaven, but still go to heaven, the apostates that we would say were never Christians to begin with, he says they are but just lost their reward.

 He kinda went off course a little.

I thought it was a good sermon until it got unbiblical.

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13 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

The topic was eternal security, In the view that the preacher held, inheriting the kingdom of heaven isn't the same as entering heaven, so for interpreting verses like Galatians 5:21, his view is that if the wicked don't have reward in heaven, but still go to heaven, the apostates that we would say were never Christians to begin with, he says they are but just lost their reward.

 He kinda went off course a little.

I thought it was a good sermon until it got unbiblical.

Sounds like you wont be listening to him again any time soon! 

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1 minute ago, reformed baptist said:

Sounds like you wont be listening to him again any time soon! 

Deffinitly not, Scripture is clear, we are new creatures in Christ, slaves to rightieousnes, no longer walking in the ways of the flesh.

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Joe Bloggs was a Calvinist, and he considered that he was amongst God's elect. However, some years later he became an atheist, and was still an atheist when he died. Clearly, his earlier belief was mistaken, and he was never one of the elect. So he didn't know what he thought he knew. 

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5 hours ago, ThyWordisTruth said:

Joe Bloggs was a Calvinist, and he considered that he was amongst God's elect. However, some years later he became an atheist, and was still an atheist when he died. Clearly, his earlier belief was mistaken, and he was never one of the elect. So he didn't know what he thought he knew. 

The saints shall persevere to the last day.

 

Since Joe Bloggs did not persevere to the last day then Joe Bloggs was not a saint.

 

The very doctrines which Joe Bloggs says made him a saint proves Joe was not.

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1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (NASB)

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, William said:

The saints shall persevere to the last day.

 

Since Joe Bloggs did not persevere to the last day then Joe Bloggs was not a saint.

 

The very doctrines which Joe Bloggs says made him a saint proves Joe was not.

You miss the point. Joe Bloggs thought he was a saint, and therefore possessed eternal security, but he wrong about that. If Joe Bloggs can be wrong about that, anybody can, and therefore nobody can be sure that God has elected them for salvation.

 

Perhaps it is not quite true to say that you cannot know if you are elect until you stand before God’s throne, but you cannot know until the very last second of life.

Edited by ThyWordisTruth
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9 hours ago, ThyWordisTruth said:

You miss the point. Joe Bloggs thought he was a saint, and therefore possessed eternal security, but he wrong about that. If Joe Bloggs can be wrong about that, anybody can, and therefore nobody can be sure that God has elected them for salvation.

 

Perhaps it is not quite true to say that you cannot know if you are elect until you stand before God’s throne, but you cannot know until the very last second of life.

I should have known better.

 

Tis why I favor learning from scriptural examples and dead theologians whose faith is evidenced by perseverance and not Joe Bloggs. 

 

One thing Calvinism has taught me is that salvation is not relative to an individual, their feelings, temporary illumination, tasting of the fruits of the Holy Spirit but salvation is monergistic. The saints shall persevere till the last day.

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On 6/3/2019 at 12:49 AM, William said:

One thing Calvinism has taught me is that salvation is not relative to an individual, their feelings, temporary illumination, tasting of the fruits of the Holy Spirit but salvation is monergistic. The saints shall persevere till the last day.

That God will accomplish his purposes is not in dispute.

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4 hours ago, ThyWordisTruth said:

That God will accomplish his purposes is not in dispute.

Are you Joe Bloggs?

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7 minutes ago, William said:

Are you Joe Bloggs?

I haven’t gone back to being an atheist any time in the last almost forty years, and I have no immediate plans for doing so. But, like Joe Bloggs, I do not possess a crystal ball, and I have no direct access to the mind of God.

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8 minutes ago, ThyWordisTruth said:

I do not possess a crystal ball, and I have no direct access to the mind of God.

So you're saying that one cannot actually have assurance of salvation? Or are you saying one can only have a false assurance of salvation? If one cannot know are you suggesting that is because you do not have direct access to the mind of God?

 

In Ephesians 2 Scriptures state that through Jesus Christ we have access in one Spirit to the Father. Question, what kinda access? Can we know the mind of God at all? And lastly, are the mind and will of God aligned or conflicted?

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, William said:

So you're saying that one cannot actually have assurance of salvation? Or are you saying one can only have a false assurance of salvation? If one cannot know are you suggesting that is because you do not have direct access to the mind of God?

You can have the conditional assurance that if you remain faithful to God (I.e. if it is God’s good pleasure to maintain you in the faith) then you will be saved.

Edited by ThyWordisTruth

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20 hours ago, ThyWordisTruth said:

You can have the conditional assurance that if you remain faithful to God (I.e. it is God’s good pleasure to maintain you in the faith) then you will be saved.

All the conditions for salvation are provided by God. I agree, that while there's evidence of faith in the recipient of salvation they ought find some assurance. Though other indicators exists too, such as the very fear of God which is provided by God. Ultimately whether the Spirit is present or whether we are insensitive to the Spirit is indicated by the fear of God which keeps us in a balanced relationship, running to the Lord, and simultaneously causing God's enemies to flee Him Exodus 20:18-20; Proverbs 9:10; Psalms 103:11-14; Jeremiah 32:38-40.

 

Lastly, salvation in light of the OP is not only past, but present and future. The whole point of the doctrines of Election and Predestination are to bring someone to Soli Deo Gloria, and not prolong that until some distant day into the future.

 

 

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On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 11:00 PM, Innerfire89 said:

I was listening to sermon and then  the preacher started talking about Calvinism and expermental perdestinaries.

I never heard the term before, he explained it to mean that you won't know if you're one of the elect until you go before God to be judged.

 

I don't know, it could be a part of Calvinism I've overlooked or something, or the guy didn't know what he was talking about.

I can't make sense of it yet, he was trying to make the case that Calvinism overlooks that one can loose reward in heaven because of the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. As a Calvinist I always believed that you could lose your rewards in heaven, if you walk away from Christ , you were never with him to begin with. 

A true born again believer in Christ didn't get that way by repeating the Five Points of Calvinism. He got that way when God determined in eternity past whom  Christ would suffer the cross for by dying in their place in order to pay the ultimate price for their sins and  giving them life eternal in Heaven. And whom He would choose to leave in their sins and ultimately to be judged by them and spend eternity suffering in Hell . A true believer didn't "accept" Christ ! The word is never used. He "Received " Christ . Then at the appointed time and due season God pointed out to him why he was saved . Scripture affirms HOW we were redeemed ,,,,,not why we were redeemed. Other than God loving  us . The true elect of God know that they are truly God's people because they can identify with everything written in holy writ pertaining to election and predestination . It is the exact parallel of  what happened to them the day they received Christ .       M

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10 hours ago, ThyWordisTruth said:

I haven’t gone back to being an atheist any time in the last almost forty years, and I have no immediate plans for doing so. But, like Joe Bloggs, I do not possess a crystal ball, and I have no direct access to the mind of God.

All true believers have access to the mind of God. His Word in Christ and written form ,the Bible, clearly reveal it. But if we do not possess the indwelling Holy Spirit we can never know God. " Verily, verily I say unto you , unless a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jn.3:3

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5 hours ago, Matthew Duvall said:

All true believers have access to the mind of God. His Word in Christ and written form ,the Bible, clearly reveal it. But if we do not possess the indwelling Holy Spirit we can never know God. " Verily, verily I say unto you , unless a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jn.3:3

Then tell me, which year has he pencilled in for me to leave this mortal coil?

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7 hours ago, Matthew Duvall said:

The true elect of God know that they are truly God's people because they can identify with everything written in holy writ pertaining to election and predestination.

 

True. God's Sprit beareth witness with our spirit (Romans 8:16).

7 hours ago, Matthew Duvall said:

All true believers have access to the mind of God. 

 

 Yes, believers have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16) in that the Holy Spirit indwells us.

 

TDNT: To the pneuma passages we should also add 1 C. 2:16: "But we have the nous of Christ." The statement concludes a section in which the reference is consistently to pneuma, and therefore one might have expected pneuma. But Paul is influenced by the preceding quotation from Is. and therefore, equating kurios and Christ, he writes nous. As elsewhere, and as is often true of pneuma, nous here means "mind" or "disposition." There is no suggestion of the nous concept of the Gks. and of later Hermetic mysticism (2:820, echō, Hanse).

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4 hours ago, ThyWordisTruth said:

Then tell me, which year has he pencilled in for me to leave this mortal coil?

Jesus is the Logos but Jesus did not know the final day and hour. Therefore Jesus is not the Logos.

 

LOL

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, William said:

Jesus is the Logos but Jesus did not know the final day and hour. Therefore Jesus is not the Logos.

 

LOL

Matthew Duvall’s splurg about God revealing his will, in general terms, in scripture, was irrelevant to whether his will for a particular individual can be known - which had been the question in debate. Except in the circumstance of a special revelation to that individual, it cannot be known.

 

Even God’s general will can only be known insofar as he chooses to reveal it, so the idea that the Bible provides the answer to every question relating to the mind of God is fallacious.

Edited by ThyWordisTruth

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16 minutes ago, ThyWordisTruth said:

Matthew Duvall’s splurg about God revealing his will, in general terms, in scripture, was irrelevant to whether his will for a particular individual can be known - which had been the question in debate. Except in the circumstance of a special revelation to that individual, it cannot be known.

 

Even God’s general will can only be known insofar as he chooses to reveal it, so the idea that the Bible provides the answer to every question relating to the mind of God is fallacious.

And since Jesus is not the Logos knowing Jesus is not knowing the Father. Since Jesus is not the Logos we cannot know the mind of God. What you call a splurge is correct, you're mistaking the mind of God with God's secret will. The logic still stands, because Jesus did not know the final day and hour if you were to be consistent then you'd have to reject that Jesus was the Logos.

 

You're equating the mind of God with knowing every question. You're equating omniscience with knowing the mind of God. The fact that you're not omniscient seems to be your point, because you're finite you can not possibly know the mind of God. Since you cannot perceive or comprehend an infinite God then you could not possibly know even a finite amount of the mind of God. That seems to be your rationale.

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2 minutes ago, William said:

And since Jesus is not the Logos knowing Jesus is not knowing the Father. Since Jesus is not the Logos we cannot know the mind of God. What you call a splurge is correct, you're mistaking the mind of God with God's secret will. The logic still stands, because Jesus did not know the final day and hour if you were to be consistent then you'd have to reject that Jesus was the Logos.

You are making no sense. I repeat to you the challenge I threw down to Matthew Duvall. If you have direct access to the mind of God, tell me the date of my death. Otherwise, case closed.

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