Jump to content

SovereignGraceSingles

Welcome to SovereignGraceSingles.com. Where Reformed Faith and Romance Come Together! We are the only Christian dating website for Christian Singles in the Reformed Faith worldwide. Our focus is to bring together Christian singles of all ages. Reformed single Christian men and women who wish to meet other Reformed Christian singles for spiritually, like-minded, loving relationships.

SovereignGraceSingles

Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” - Genesis 2:18

SovereignGraceSingles

Meet Like Minded Believers Can two walk together except they be agreed? - Amos 3:3

SovereignGraceSingles

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.

SovereignGraceSingles

SGS offers a "fenced" community: both for private single members and also a public Protestant forums open to Bible-believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene-derived Christian Church.
Faber

False rape charges, false murder charges, etc.

Recommended Posts

Faber

Deuteronomy 19:16-19

(16) If a malicious witness rises up against a man to accuse him of wrongdoing,

(17) then both the men who have the dispute shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who will be in office in those days.

(18) The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and he has accused his brother falsely,

(19) then you shall do to him just as he had intended to do to his brother. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. (NASB)

 

You falsely accuse someone of murder, then you get the death penalty. You falsely accuse someone of rape, then you get sent to the poky for 20 years or so.

I wonder if this policy was implemented how many false charges would disappear.

 

Share this post


Link to post
reformed baptist

How sure are you the rules about witnesses relate to such charges as murder and rape?

 

Thinking particularly of the later crime, might such a practice actually discourage victims coming forward as well - that is not to question the bible text, which clearly has an application in the church :RpS_wink:

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Innerfire89

Worldly justice systems are all pretty broken, some are a little better than others in certain areas, but they all have deep flaws.

 

False accusers should receive the punishment that the accused would have gotten. That's justice as scripture teaches.

If our law were the same today I think that would deffinitly make people think twice before trying to destroy someone with such lies. But they'll get what's coming to them when they go before our perfect judge.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
reformed baptist
John Gill: it holds good of any other.

https://www.studylight.org/commentar...ronomy-19.html

 

One must prove they came forward intentionally to deceive. The burden of proof is on the accuser.

 

Remember this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

 

I don't remember that case - but then I'm English so i'm not sure it ever reached our news

 

Do you agree with Gill that a woman cannot bear witness to a crime?

"an oath of witness is made by men, and not by women; on which it is observed
F2
that a woman is not fit to bear witness, as it is written:"

 

Share this post


Link to post
William
Staff

 

I don't remember that case - but then I'm English so i'm not sure it ever reached our news

 

Do you agree with Gill that a woman cannot bear witness to a crime?

"an oath of witness is made by men, and not by women; on which it is observed
F2
that a woman is not fit to bear witness, as it is written:"

 

If a woman cannot bear witness for credibility sake, then aren't we in trouble because of the testimony of women given for the resurrection?

 

The men seemingly took them seriously. And much emphasis has been placed on their witness. Perhaps this went against the cultural norms, that is, to include women in these matters. However, this just goes to show the positive aspect of Christianity wherever it has blossomed, women's rights have increased.

 

On the topic of rape, what scares me is a woman being raped and me coming to her aid. She opens her eyes and sees me. If as the rapist, I'm in a lot of trouble.

 

God bless,

William

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
reformed baptist
If a woman cannot bear witness for credibility sake, then aren't we in trouble because of the testimony of women given for the resurrection?

 

The men seemingly took them seriously. And much emphasis has been placed on their witness. Perhaps this went against the cultural norms, that is, to include women in these matters. However, this just goes to show the positive aspect of Christianity wherever it has blossomed, women's rights have increased.

 

Amen!

 

In regards to the OP I am somewhat hesitant to apply the law governing a theocracy directly to our society - i see the application more in the life of the church. I guess I am a bit of a stickler for the three fold division of the law and how we apply the law across those divisions today :RpS_thumbup:

Share this post


Link to post
Faber

Unless they are repeated in the New Covenant all the Old Covenant laws have been abrogated.

 

I'm saying though that I agree with the law of punishment when it comes to bearing false witness. The Duke false accusation "rape case" is one such example as to why.

Share this post


Link to post
reformed baptist
Unless they are repeated in the New Covenant all the Old Covenant laws have been abrogated.

 

I'm not sure about that - the moral law, for example, transcends the 10 commandments, the ceremonial is fulfilled in Christ, and the social has relevance for the church

 

I'm saying though that I agree with the law of punishment when it comes to bearing false witness. The Duke false accusation "rape case" is one such example as to why.

 

I'm all for protection against false accusations - i'm just not convinced this is it (and I'm deliberately provocative to promotes discussion)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Faber

I'm not sure about that - the moral law, for example, transcends the 10 commandments, the ceremonial is fulfilled in Christ, and the social has relevance for the church

 

Hebrews 8:13 teaches all the Old Covenant laws have been abrogated.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
reformed baptist

 

But what are the old covenant laws? certainly not the moral code that transcends the old covenant.

Share this post


Link to post
Faber

What do you mean by "moral code"?

Share this post


Link to post
reformed baptist
What do you mean by "moral code"?

The 10 commandments

Share this post


Link to post
reformed baptist
What do you mean by "moral code"?

4th Commandment

Old Covenant: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. (Exodus 20:8-11, NASB)

New Covenant: N/A

 

Just because you say N/A - that does make it so my friend!

 

The sabbath is a pattern set in creation (Gen 2:2)

The sabbath existed before the Old Covenant (Ex 16:23)

The sabbath, as a creation ordinance, was regulated in the law (Ex 20:8-11)

The sabbath existed in the days of Jesus and he exalted it to it's true position (Mark 2:27-28)

The sabbath pattern remains in 'the Lord's day' (Rev 1:10)

The sabbath will be in eternity (Hebrews 4)

 

The sabbath transcends the old covenant - as does the entire moral code!

Share this post


Link to post
Faber
What do you mean by "moral code"?

Physical circumcision existed before God's command to Moses about it, but that doesn't mean one must be physically circumcised today.

The Lord Jesus was "born under the Law" (Galatians 4:4) so He would be required to obey the 7th day Sabbath command.

 

Hebrews 4:9 does not refer to the 7th day Sabbath.

See post #6 and post #18

https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/bible-study/bible-translations/32642-hebrews-4-9-rediscovered

 

Colossians 2:16 teaches that the 7th day Sabbath is no longer binding on the Christian.

https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/apologetics-and-theology/50357-christians-are-not-under-the-command-to-obey-the-7th-day-sabbath-colossians-2-16

Share this post


Link to post
reformed baptist
What do you mean by "moral code"?

Physical circumcision existed before God's command to Moses about it, but that doesn't mean one must be physically circumcised today.

Circumcision was given to the Abramic covenant - it was not a creation ordinance - so this is not a fair comparison

 

The Lord Jesus was "born under the Law" (Galatians 4:4) so He would be required to obey the 7th day Sabbath command.

As with so many wrong arguements this ignores what was said

 

Hebrews 4:9 does not refer to the 7th day Sabbath.

See post #6 and post #18

Hebrews 4:9 rediscovered - Christforums

Your statements on that thread are based upon your misapprehension regarding the sabbath and its function - having rejected it's nature as transcending the Old Covenant

 

Colossians 2:16 teaches that the 7th day Sabbath is no longer binding on the Christian.

Christians are not under the command to obey the 7th day Sabbath (Colossians 2:16) - Christforums

No it doesn't - it says: 'let no one judge you' it never says 'the sabbath has been done away with' - that is just poor exegesis!

Share this post


Link to post
Faber
What do you mean by "moral code"?

I'll go by with how the words are properly defined, while you can stick with your opinions about what you think they should mean.

Share this post


Link to post
reformed baptist
What do you mean by "moral code"?

I can't address that statement because I don't know what you are referring to!

Share this post


Link to post
ChatterBox

Thinking particularly of the later crime, might such a practice actually discourage victims coming forward as well - that is not to question the bible text, which clearly has an application in the church :RpS_wink:

The problem is that we have anti-perjury laws which should make there be consequences for false accusations and lying in court. Victims don't normally tell malicious lies in court, while false witnesses will. The problem is that these never seem to be enforced, and the penalties inflicted are so low that people don't seem to think twice about it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Faber
On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 2:14 PM, reformed baptist said:

 

Circumcision was given to the Abramic covenant - it was not a creation ordinance - so this is not a fair comparison

 

 

As with so many wrong arguements this ignores what was said

 

 

Your statements on that thread are based upon your misapprehension regarding the sabbath and its function - having rejected it's nature as transcending the Old Covenant

 

 

No it doesn't - it says: 'let no one judge you' it never says 'the sabbath has been done away with' - that is just poor exegesis!

The 7th day Sabbath is no longer binding upon the Christian.

 

1. NIDNTT: Here Paul argues that the Jewish law (the legal demands) were cancelled in the death of Christ (v. 14), and therefore the Jewish food regulations and religious calendar are not binding on the Christian. Included in this ritual was the Jewish sabbath observance. These observances, Paul claims, pointed to a spiritual reality fulfilled in Christ (3:410, Sabbath, W. Stott).

2. EDNT: Questions concerning the Sabbath also play a role in the religious disputes in the church at Colossae (Col 2:16). Like festivals and new moons sabbath observance is only a shadow of what is to come (3:222, sabbaton, W. Beilner).

3. TDNT: With liberation from bondage to the elementary principles of the world the dogmata are also set aside, so that the Christian community is definitely freed from the Sabbath commandment (7:30, sabbaton, Lohse).

 

You can assert "poor exegesis" all you want but I refuse to play make believe with how the words of the Bible are properly defined.

Share this post


Link to post
reformed baptist
5 minutes ago, Faber said:

 

You can assert "poor exegesis" all you want but I refuse to play make believe with how the words of the Bible are properly defined.

 

So you keep repeating - but it makes no sense. 

 

The simple reality is I posted a series of statements that show reference to the sabbath out side of the Mosaic Covenant (as well as within it) which you have chosen to ignore - only responding to one - since then you have hidden behind this excuse, 'how the words of the Bible are properly defined.' - yet as far as I can see you haven't 'defined' the meaning of a single word, but have rather just just cited tiny exerts from 3 resources - the simple truth is actually I was wrong to read Colossians 2:16 as saying the sabbath is no longer binding is not exegesis at all, rather it is eisegesis - let me remind you of the text Colossians 2:16-17 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Paul says the sabbath is a shadow of the things to come - he doesn't say it no longer has a purpose. 

 

I understand you will simply dismiss this - you always seem to dismiss everything I have to say - but maybe others will read it and consider it

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Faber

 I cited sources for my assertion while you cited your opinion. That's okay when it comes to things like one's favorite kind of ice-cream but when it comes to properly defining the words of the Bible there comes a time to put such childish approaches away (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:11).

 

The purpose of the Sabbath as well as food, drink, festival and new moon is to point to the "substance" which is Christ. If the 7th day Sabbath is still binding on the Christian then so are the others mentioned.

 

Better rethink your position because it is sinking quite fast.

Share this post


Link to post
reformed baptist
4 hours ago, Faber said:

 I cited sources for my assertion while you cited your opinion. That's okay when it comes to things like one's favorite kind of ice-cream but when it comes to properly defining the words of the Bible there comes a time to put such childish approaches away (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:11).

You haven't 'defined' any words, and you continue to neglect the rest of my argument. 

 

4 hours ago, Faber said:

The purpose of the Sabbath as well as food, drink, festival and new moon is to point to the "substance" which is Christ. If the 7th day Sabbath is still binding on the Christian then so are the others mentioned.

Two thing to point out - again you are straw-manning my argument, where I have said "the 7th day Sabbath is still binding" - let's go back and revisit I did actually say shall we: 

On 4/25/2018 at 10:04 PM, reformed baptist said:

The sabbath is a pattern set in creation (Gen 2:2)

The sabbath existed before the Old Covenant (Ex 16:23)

The sabbath, as a creation ordinance, was regulated in the law (Ex 20:8-11)

The sabbath existed in the days of Jesus and he exalted it to it's true position (Mark 2:27-28)

The sabbath pattern remains in 'the Lord's day' (Rev 1:10)

The sabbath will be in eternity (Hebrews 4)

 

The sabbath transcends the old covenant - as does the entire moral code!

I said 'the sabbath' I never referred to a specifically or exclusively to "the 7th day Sabbath" - indeed I clearly asserted that, "the sabbath pattern remains in the Lord's day."

 

4 hours ago, Faber said:

Better rethink your position because it is sinking quite fast.

I don't see why, clearly you have been trying to tear down a straw-man rather then interact meaningfully with my argument. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Faber

I already cited three different sources which affirm what I am asserting.

 

I wrote that Christians are not under the command to obey the 7th day Sabbath. You disagreed which is ridiculous.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...