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just_me

Is there a difference between those born and raised Christian and those who came to God after?

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just_me

I'm not talking about a difference in God's eye, but a difference in man's eyes. I was wondering if there are some who take grace as a circumstance as they always being a Christian

 

I have always been an anxious person and one who found it hard to fit in. I many times see myself as one who needs to prove myself that I am a Christian and sometimes have difficulty with dealing with issues that I think take away from, for a lack of a better word, Dignity of being Christian.

 

I many times get so angry with these people who sensationalize themselves, like the Westbourough Baptist Church, with them protesting solders funerals and those who think they can determine when judgement day ends. I really get upset at people like these who mistreated their 13 children and then claim religion and God.

 

I get embarrased when I bring up something that might have come from my stint at the Jehovahs Witnesses and find out it's terribly wrong.

 

Full disclosure I was born and raised into that cult and had to run away from hime, when I was 16-17 to get away from them. I am currently disfellowshipped from them and I could not be more elated that I am. Though that has been 40 some odd years and I can't remember what they teach, but I'm always scared that some of that is still deap down inside of me and will suddenly surface out of my subconsciousness mind.

 

I was wondering

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William
Staff

This was one of the first things I noticed in a denomination that teaches Covenant Theology. Children are baptized into a covenant relationship at very early ages. They have no conversion stories later in life or in adulthood, because they always believed in God as far back as they can remember.

 

In some ways I really admire these covenant children and especially their parents. I think our church culture can be so bent that it gives too much pew time to people that made wrong decisions, when little is said about those making right decisions. That is, sometimes we need recognize God's promises to our Covenant fathers, and see his promises fulfilled in the lives of our little ones Acts 2:38-39. There is much praise to be given God in such ways.

 

I find that sometimes covenant children can exhibit a mild or uncomfortable jealousy of the prodigal sons for want of a grand tale to tell others, nobody wants to hear the older brother's story, but the focus usually surrounds the prodigal's horrible decision making. In other words, I think we can or generally do as a culture encourage the wrong type of behavior. We place so much emphasis on personal experience rather than obedience. Irony, because I admire big brother in the story of the Prodigal Son despite his short comings.

 

Luke 15:11-32

 

11 And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to[a] one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.

 

17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 But the father said to his servants,[c] ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

 

25 “Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28 But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ 31 And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”

 

God bless,

William

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Just Mike

I will address both issues. My wife graduated form Seminary with Westbourough Baptist Church members demonstrating outside across the street yelling and and screening at the graduates. The police did NOTHING because it was their right.

 

I was raised in a Christian home, and I can never recall a time I did not know who Jesus was and that I was a sinner, and I needed to ask Jesus into my heart and confess my sins and stop doing those sins. At age 11 I went forward in Church to publicly and openly say Jesus Christ was my Lord and Savior, I was Baptized the next week. I have had times of carnality, and repentance in my teenage years mostly and as a adult those times have far less. I am a sinner, as long as I am on this earth I have that "old sin nature".

 

I have at times felt my testimony is not very worth hearing when I hear how people with a very sinful past has come to Thirst. I can only say how thankful Jesus has been my Lord, and with me as long as I can remember .

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deade

Hi everyone,

 

Deade chiming in here: I think the difference between the raised Christian and the converted Christian is best summed up in Jesus' words:

 

Luke 7:47: "Wherefore I say unto thee, her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little."

 

I sometimes envy those that had an opportunity to be raised in a church-going family. My family was so dysfunctional, I had to work just to stay out of prison.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

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just_me

I am in one of my depressed moods and I think I wrote this wrong or asked the question in the wrong way. I'm going to shut down until I get over this and ponder how best to ask my question. I'm sorry if i forced this out without fully thinking it through. God bless you all for answering my badly worded post.

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Sue D.
I will address both issues. My wife graduated form Seminary with Westbourough Baptist Church members demonstrating outside across the street yelling and and screening at the graduates. The police did NOTHING because it was their right.

 

I was raised in a Christian home, and I can never recall a time I did not know who Jesus was and that I was a sinner, and I needed to ask Jesus into my heart and confess my sins and stop doing those sins. At age 11 I went forward in Church to publicly and openly say Jesus Christ was my Lord and Savior, I was Baptized the next week. I have had times of carnality, and repentance in my teenage years mostly and as a adult those times have far less. I am a sinner, as long as I am on this earth I have that "old sin nature".

 

I have at times felt my testimony is not very worth hearing when I hear how people with a very sinful past has come to Thirst. I can only say how thankful Jesus has been my Lord, and with me as long as I can remember .

Thank you for sharing that. I was raised in that same atmosphere. Don't remember Not hearing and knowing. And at some point all that knowledge Needs to be made Personal. Like you did. Every so often I realize that there are Lots of people who have lots of Bible Knowledge -- and that's great -- but having all that knowledge does Not equal salvation. Our personal acknowledgment of our personal need is needed.

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Just Mike
I am in one of my depressed moods and I think I wrote this wrong or asked the question in the wrong way. I'm going to shut down until I get over this and ponder how best to ask my question. I'm sorry if i forced this out without fully thinking it through. God bless you all for answering my badly worded post.

 

You did fine, you are way to hard on yourself. You remember there are many of who are remembering you in our parayers right now. I will pray for you right now.

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William
Staff
I am in one of my depressed moods and I think I wrote this wrong or asked the question in the wrong way. I'm going to shut down until I get over this and ponder how best to ask my question. I'm sorry if i forced this out without fully thinking it through. God bless you all for answering my badly worded post.

When something is wrong people tend to shut down communication. Just remember brother, Satan loves it when God's children are isolated from others. This is why it is important to have a strong relationship with brethren in the Christian community.

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just_me

@William

By7 shuting down I remove my frustration from the site. It's not that I'm rejecting the site but understanding myself and the beginning of a foal mood.

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William
Staff
@William

By7 shuting down I remove my frustration from the site. It's not that I'm rejecting the site but understanding myself and the beginning of a foal mood.

Understood, but I am not particularly referring to the site, but actual relationships through a church. This site isn't a replacement for actual Christian fellowship. And I do appreciate your ability to walk away when frustrated. Personally, I do that several times a day during hotly debated topics, generally an added bonus in way of clarity happens when I take a breather and relax. I think this is due to separating emotion from the topic/subject at hand.

 

God bless,

William

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just_me

 

You did fine, you are way to hard on yourself. You remember there are many of who are remembering you in our parayers right now. I will pray for you right now.

 

Thank you

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Fastfredy0
Hi everyone,

 

Deade chiming in here: I think the difference between the raised Christian and the converted Christian is best summed up in Jesus' words:

 

Luke 7:47: "Wherefore I say unto thee, her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little."

 

I sometimes envy those that had an opportunity to be raised in a church-going family. My family was so dysfunctional, I had to work just to stay out of prison.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

Interesting ...

a good verse to back up your statement that generally those raised as Christians don't love God as much as those converted later in life.

hmmm ... maybe

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Fastfredy0
I am in one of my depressed moods and I think I wrote this wrong or asked the question in the wrong way. I'm going to shut down until I get over this and ponder how best to ask my question. I'm sorry if i forced this out without fully thinking it through. God bless you all for answering my badly worded post.

Hey, you're just 'brainstorming" (produce an idea or way of solving a problem by holding a spontaneous group discussion)

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Just Mike

just-_me we are brothers not just in Christ, but as close to the same name on this forum as possible. Glad you back I hope your feeling refreshed. God bless you brother.

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David Lee

Hi Just_Me, I'm praying for you too.

 

Also, If you decide to rethink/change the OP, I hope you'll consider starting another thread instead, and leave this one in place as is (because unintentional or not, I think you've brought up a very interesting and important topic for discussion). IOW, I think it's great just the way it is :RpS_thumbsup:

 

One thing that helps me whenever I'm down is remembering that the Lord chose me as one of His own just the way I am, IOW, even though He knew how very sinful and flawed I would be. Sure He wants the very best for us, but He is always patient and kind towards us as His love for us is from everlasting (which means that He ALWAYS loved those of us who are His, even long before we were born, and He always will). Such is the nature of His love for us, and in His love therefore we can always find rest :RpS_smile:

 

If you have the time, consider what Charles Spurgeon has to say below about this in one of his devotional readings.

February 27th — Evening Reading

"
Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting
." — 

The Lord Jesus had goings forth for His people
as their representative before the throne, long before they appeared upon the stage of time.
It was "from everlasting" that He signed the compact with His Father, that He would pay blood for blood, suffering for suffering, agony for agony, and death for death, in the behalf of His people; it was "from everlasting" that He gave Himself up without a murmuring word. That from the crown of His head to the sole of His foot He might sweat great drops of blood, that He might be spit upon, pierced, mocked, rent asunder, and crushed beneath the pains of death. His goings forth as our Surety were from everlasting. Pause, my soul, and wonder! Thou hast goings forth in the person of Jesus "from everlasting." Not only when thou wast born into the world did Christ love thee, but His delights were with the sons of men before there were any sons of men. Often did He think of them; from everlasting to everlasting He had set His affection upon them. What! my soul, has He been so long about thy salvation, and will not He accomplish it? Has he from everlasting been going forth to save me, and will He lose me now? What! has He carried me in His hand, as His precious jewel, and will He now let me slip from between His fingers? Did he choose me before the mountains were brought forth, or the channels of the deep were digged, and will He reject me now? Impossible! I am sure He would not have loved me so long if He had not been a changeless Lover. If He could grow weary of me, He would have been tired of me long before now. If He had not loved me with a love as deep as hell, and as strong as death, He would have turned from me long ago. Oh, joy above all joys, to know that I am His everlasting and inalienable inheritance, given to Him by His Father or ever the earth was!
Everlasting love shall be the pillow for my head this night.

 

God bless you!

 

--David

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William
Staff
Hi Just_Me, I'm praying for you too.

 

Also, If you decide to rethink/change the OP, I hope you'll consider starting another thread instead, and leave this one in place as is (because unintentional or not, I think you've brought up a very interesting and important topic for discussion). IOW, I think it's great just the way it is :RpS_thumbsup:

 

One thing that helps me whenever I'm down is remembering that the Lord chose me as one of His own just the way I am, IOW, even though He knew how very sinful and flawed I would be. Sure He wants the very best for us, but He is always patient and kind towards us as His love for us is from everlasting (which means that He ALWAYS loved those of us who are His, even long before we were born, and He always will). Such is the nature of His love for us, and in His love therefore we can always find rest :RpS_smile:

 

If you have the time, consider what Charles Spurgeon has to say below about this in one of his devotional readings.

February 27th — Evening Reading

"
Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting
." — 

The Lord Jesus had goings forth for His people
as their representative before the throne, long before they appeared upon the stage of time.
It was "from everlasting" that He signed the compact with His Father, that He would pay blood for blood, suffering for suffering, agony for agony, and death for death, in the behalf of His people; it was "from everlasting" that He gave Himself up without a murmuring word. That from the crown of His head to the sole of His foot He might sweat great drops of blood, that He might be spit upon, pierced, mocked, rent asunder, and crushed beneath the pains of death. His goings forth as our Surety were from everlasting. Pause, my soul, and wonder! Thou hast goings forth in the person of Jesus "from everlasting." Not only when thou wast born into the world did Christ love thee, but His delights were with the sons of men before there were any sons of men. Often did He think of them; from everlasting to everlasting He had set His affection upon them. What! my soul, has He been so long about thy salvation, and will not He accomplish it? Has he from everlasting been going forth to save me, and will He lose me now? What! has He carried me in His hand, as His precious jewel, and will He now let me slip from between His fingers? Did he choose me before the mountains were brought forth, or the channels of the deep were digged, and will He reject me now? Impossible! I am sure He would not have loved me so long if He had not been a changeless Lover. If He could grow weary of me, He would have been tired of me long before now. If He had not loved me with a love as deep as hell, and as strong as death, He would have turned from me long ago. Oh, joy above all joys, to know that I am His everlasting and inalienable inheritance, given to Him by His Father or ever the earth was!
Everlasting love shall be the pillow for my head this night.

 

God bless you!

 

--David

David, lemme ask you, does it seem that Spurgeon at times is in love with his own voice? I had to ask this, because I find myself glossing over wordy commentaries.

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David Lee

commented

01-20-2018, 11:32 PM

David, lemme ask you, does it seem that Spurgeon at times is in love with his own voice? I had to ask this, because I find myself glossing over wordy commentaries.

 

He was certainly a prolific and often poetic writer. Beyond that I think I'll just stick with calling him a blessing :RpS_smile:

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Dutch

commented

01-20-2018, 11:32 PM

David, lemme ask you, does it seem that Spurgeon at times is in love with his own voice? I had to ask this, because I find myself glossing over wordy commentaries.

 

He was certainly a prolific and often poetic writer. Beyond that I think I'll just stick with calling him a blessing :RpS_smile:

Good response David. I have never found Spurgeon wordy.

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Dutch

I also William either walk away from or do not get involved in many of these posts that either seem to just like to stir things up to no profit or are promoting their own agenda.

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ChatterBox
I'm not talking about a difference in God's eye, but a difference in man's eyes. I was wondering if there are some who take grace as a circumstance as they always being a Christian

Coming back to this point, I have noticed some practical differences in how they relate to other people and how others relate to them.

 

People who are brought up in the faith sometimes have more trouble defending it against people who question their faith. They aren't always ready for questions that come from a different point of view, because they've never asked them. Converts have already asked themselves these questions and found the answers, often before they join the faith, so they are more ready with answers when challenged on things like free will, evil, or the fate of the unbaptised.

 

It can also be very difficult for converts to get family or other relatives to accept that a person has changed faith, as you have found. Some families will acknowledge and oppose the change, but I know of others that simply pretend the conversion never happened, including one family who kept trying to introduce their son to eligible women in their faith because his ten-year marriage in a Christian church and two children "didn't count".

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wincam
Hi Just_Me, I'm praying for you too.

 

Also, If you decide to rethink/change the OP, I hope you'll consider starting another thread instead, and leave this one in place as is (because unintentional or not, I think you've brought up a very interesting and important topic for discussion). IOW, I think it's great just the way it is :RpS_thumbsup:

 

One thing that helps me whenever I'm down is remembering that the Lord chose me as one of His own just the way I am, IOW, even though He knew how very sinful and flawed I would be. Sure He wants the very best for us, but He is always patient and kind towards us as His love for us is from everlasting (which means that He ALWAYS loved those of us who are His, even long before we were born, and He always will). Such is the nature of His love for us, and in His love therefore we can always find rest :RpS_smile:

 

If you have the time, consider what Charles Spurgeon has to say below about this in one of his devotional readings.

February 27th — Evening Reading

"
Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting
." — 

The Lord Jesus had goings forth for His people
as their representative before the throne, long before they appeared upon the stage of time.
It was "from everlasting" that He signed the compact with His Father, that He would pay blood for blood, suffering for suffering, agony for agony, and death for death, in the behalf of His people; it was "from everlasting" that He gave Himself up without a murmuring word. That from the crown of His head to the sole of His foot He might sweat great drops of blood, that He might be spit upon, pierced, mocked, rent asunder, and crushed beneath the pains of death. His goings forth as our Surety were from everlasting. Pause, my soul, and wonder! Thou hast goings forth in the person of Jesus "from everlasting." Not only when thou wast born into the world did Christ love thee, but His delights were with the sons of men before there were any sons of men. Often did He think of them; from everlasting to everlasting He had set His affection upon them. What! my soul, has He been so long about thy salvation, and will not He accomplish it? Has he from everlasting been going forth to save me, and will He lose me now? What! has He carried me in His hand, as His precious jewel, and will He now let me slip from between His fingers? Did he choose me before the mountains were brought forth, or the channels of the deep were digged, and will He reject me now? Impossible! I am sure He would not have loved me so long if He had not been a changeless Lover. If He could grow weary of me, He would have been tired of me long before now. If He had not loved me with a love as deep as hell, and as strong as death, He would have turned from me long ago. Oh, joy above all joys, to know that I am His everlasting and inalienable inheritance, given to Him by His Father or ever the earth was!
Everlasting love shall be the pillow for my head this night.

 

God bless you!

 

--David

David - lets stick with what you wrote more so than even Spurgeon - this is very close to what I have been pondering for a long time now that in His infinite love we are saved in spite of ourselves - we had no say in our creation nor in our salvation imho - this is the good news and glad tidings of great joy - more later - wincam

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wincam

Coming back to this point, I have noticed some practical differences in how they relate to other people and how others relate to them.

 

People who are brought up in the faith sometimes have more trouble defending it against people who question their faith. They aren't always ready for questions that come from a different point of view, because they've never asked them. Converts have already asked themselves these questions and found the answers, often before they join the faith, so they are more ready with answers when challenged on things like free will, evil, or the fate of the unbaptised.

 

It can also be very difficult for converts to get family or other relatives to accept that a person has changed faith, as you have found. Some families will acknowledge and oppose the change, but I know of others that simply pretend the conversion never happened, including one family who kept trying to introduce their son to eligible women in their faith because his ten-year marriage in a Christian church and two children "didn't count".

 

 

 

converts are mostly suspect and fall away, these are known as backsliders - the reason appears to be exactly as Jesus knew and told us is that the requirement is that we simply simply believe like little children but this is simply simply very difficult if not impossible for others imho - wincam

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ChatterBox
converts are mostly suspect and fall away, these are known as backsliders
And people raised in the faith often abandon it as adults, more often than adult converts in fact. Some studies show 70-88% of children raised Christian stop going to church by age 18, which is of great concern to the faith as a whole.

 

Treating all converts as 'suspect' and expecting them to backslide is a good way to turn people away from Christ. We are supposed to bring people to him. Why not accept someone as part of the faith until they prove they are not? After all, St. Paul was a convert.

 

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atpollard
I get embarrassed when I bring up something that might have come from my stint at the Jehovah's Witnesses and find out it's terribly wrong.

 

Full disclosure I was born and raised into that cult and had to run away from home, when I was 16-17 to get away from them. I am currently disfellowshipped from them and I could not be more elated that I am. Though that has been 40 some odd years and I can't remember what they teach, but I'm always scared that some of that is still deep down inside of me and will suddenly surface out of my subconsciousness mind.

 

I was wondering

Try starting from watching Roman Catholics pray at shrines to their dead children, attending an occasional liberal Sunday Schools that teaches Jesus like Santa Claus, and growing up believing that there is no God and religion is a crutch for the weak. I had nothing but junk to unlearn.

 

Let's talk about the two types of Christians. Even in the book of acts, there were Jewish Christians who came to the truth from being raised from infancy trying to follow God. They, like the modern Christians who grow up in Church and cannot remember a time before God, are a living testimony to the faithfulness of God "to a thousand generations of those who love and serve him". I take comfort in that and claim that promise for my daughter and her children and their children. It means something important that every generation does not need to begin at rock bottom. Of course, that is not the experience of people like us. In the New Testament, we also see lots of people who were not starting from a life of trying to please God. They, just like the Modern Christians who come to Christ from the world, are a living testimony to the grace of God ... no one is beyond his reach. The Church really needs to hear BOTH testimonies. We need to know that God can save anyone, and that God is faithful to His chosen people.

 

@just_me

 

God LOVES you. I know it sounds trite, but remember the reality behind those words:

 

Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

God loves you more than he loves his own life. God loved you at your worst. God loves you enough to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to gather you to Him. God has long-term plans for you. God has taken out an insurance policy on His plans:

 

Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

So you expressed worry about what might still linger hidden in your heart. I get that fear. What helps me is to remember that no less than GOD HIMSELF, the Holy Spirit, third person of the triune godhead, LIVES in our heart. God has taken up permanent residence as a seal of ownership. What can fight with that? So any junk that surfaces, God is allowing to surface to give us a chance, with His help, to deal with it. Because God has a long term plan and the resources to accomplish what he sets out to accomplish ... cleaning up the mess and transforming us into the image of Christ.

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just_me

 

 

 

converts are mostly suspect and fall away, these are known as backsliders - the reason appears to be exactly as Jesus knew and told us is that the requirement is that we simply simply believe like little children but this is simply simply very difficult if not impossible for others imho - wincam

 

Where do you get your information from. Who is it that suspects these people to backslide? This sounds extremely prejudicial and I would wonder how anyone who feels this way would ever put forth the effort to bring someone closer to God, if they feel like they are wasting their time with them.

 

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