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just_me

What happens to the souls of the unborn after they are aborted?

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just_me

Sorry about this topic. Sometimes my lack of wisdom and knowledge scares me.I don't know where I am going with this and I really don't want to start up anything about abortion. We all know how abominable this thing is, but I really want to know what you guys think.

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Innerfire89

There was a thread not long ago on the topic infant salvation. It's hard to say absolutely, but one who believes there's a special for infants and the mentally invalid.

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just_me
There was a thread not long ago on the topic infant salvation. It's hard to say absolutely, but one who believes there's a special for infants and the mentally invalid.

 

I don't want to blaspheme or say something that might be incredibly ridiculous to some here. I know we have had our fair share of that in the past few days and the staff, God bless them has dispatched them elsewhere.

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CDF47

I believe they are saved like other infants.

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Dutch

Great men of God have come out on different side of this issue. This is a question better left to find out in eternity.

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Innerfire89
There was a thread not long ago on the topic infant salvation. It's hard to say absolutely, but one who believes there's a special for infants and the mentally invalid.

 

I don't want to blaspheme or say something that might be incredibly ridiculous to some here. I know we have had our fair share of that in the past few days and the staff, God bless them has dispatched them elsewhere.

I don't think spirits are recycled like in reincarnation, Scripture tells us man is appointed to die once and on to judgment. When we die it's our time planed by God.

 

You're reasonable and sincere, I don't think moderation is going to throw you out for seeking a better understanding.

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just_me
Great men of God have come out on different side of this issue. This is a question better left to find out in eternity.

 

I was worried about stepping into anything here that was not meant to be. Thank you for this.

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Innerfire89
Great men of God have come out on different side of this issue. This is a question better left to find out in eternity.

Good point. We should have simple peace in knowing that our God is perfect in all ways and that justice will exacted for the horrors of abortion.

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just_me

@Innerfire89

I didn't realize that I was talking about incarnation. I repent of this and thank you for your incite. Sometimes I feel so stupid it isn't even funny.

 

Could the staff please remove post as it is something I did out of ignorance that I am ashamed of.

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Fastfredy0
@Innerfire89

I didn't realize that I was talking about incarnation. I repent of this and thank you for your incite. Sometimes I feel so stupid it isn't even funny.

 

Could the staff please remove post as it is something I did out of ignorance that I am ashamed of.

I don't think one should repent of a desire to know God. It's a sensitive subject and parents long for an answer.

 

but let the one who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows Me [and acknowledges Me and honors Me as God and recognizes without any doubt], that I am the LORD who practices lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on the earth, for in these things I delight,” says the LORD.

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ChatterBox
Sorry about this topic. Sometimes my lack of wisdom and knowledge scares me.I don't know where I am going with this and I really don't want to start up anything about abortion. We all know how abominable this thing is, but I really want to know what you guys think.

I would suspect the same think that happens to the stillborn and miscarried. Whether that means going to heaven or hell we don't know, but it has been long debated. Some people believe they get a free pass into heaven as they are too young to have reached the age of choice, others that they do not. It is impossible to know, so we can only trust in God's wisdom and mercy.

 

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David Lee
@Innerfire89

I didn't realize that I was talking about incarnation. I repent of this and thank you for your incite. Sometimes I feel so stupid it isn't even funny.

 

Hey Brother, no worries. If we didn't allow for errors in thinking around here I would have been asked to leave a long time ago. Plus, I figure that once we reach 50 we are going to have the occasional "senior moment", so that's what I normally go with these days as my excuse (and it probably isn't too far from the truth, at least in my case it isn't :RpS_w00t:).

 

The other thing is, I think the subject of reincarnation needs to be broached around here every once in awhile because there are a ton of people (including many uniformed Christians) who don't understand why reincarnation and the Christian faith are never harmonizable (and we need to be able to explain why it isn't to them .. cf 1 Peter 3:15). So sometimes a little error in posting can be a good thing I guess you could say :RpS_smile:

 

In Christ,.

David

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Dutch

Yes none of us are perfect.The key is to speak the truth in love.

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David Lee
What happens to the souls of the unborn after they are aborted?

 

Hi Just_Me, the Bible makes it pretty clear that Hell has to be "earned" by us .. cf Romans 6:23. It also tells us that all who end up there will be judged and condemned on the basis of 1) their knowledge of the law and 2) their understanding of the law, even if the only law they have is the one that was written upon their hearts by God .. Romans 2:12-16. Infants, toddlers and unborn children do not know the law, nor could they understand it even if they possessed it (even the law that is written in their hearts), so God has no basis for judging and condemning them.

 

It's also clear that the reprobate will be judged and condemned on the basis of what they do/say/think (personally, that is) .. e.g. Ezekiel 18:20. God will not condemn those who stand before Him at the Great White Throne for the sins of another person (including their forefathers), neither will He judge/condemn the reprobate on the basis of his/her sin "nature" (again, He judges and condemns on the basis of what people actually do/say/think personally).

 

500 years ago Calvin and Servetus hashed this out as "free will" adherent Servetus taught that infants, toddlers and the unborn go to Hell if they die because they had not freely chosen to believe (even though that was beyond them). Calvin harshly and rightly criticized Servetus for holding such a view, saying that all who God allows to die at such a young age are part of His elect and are therefore bound for eternal life with Him. A sparrow cannot fall to the ground and die apart from the Father's will, and neither will we, whether we be elect or reprobate.

 

In Christ,

David

Romans 2

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

 

 

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Fastfredy0
What happens to the souls of the unborn after they are aborted?

 

Hi Just_Me, the Bible makes it pretty clear that Hell has to be "earned" by us .. cf Romans 6:23. It also tells us that all who end up there will be judged and condemned on the basis of 1) their knowledge of the law and 2) their understanding of the law, even if the only law they have is the one that was written upon their hearts by God .. Romans 2:12-16. Infants, toddlers and unborn children do not know the law, nor could they understand it even if they possessed it (even the law that is written in their hearts), so God has no basis for judging and condemning them.

 

It's also clear that the reprobate will be judged and condemned on the basis of what they do/say/think (personally, that is) .. e.g. Ezekiel 18:20. God will not condemn those who stand before Him at the Great White Throne for the sins of another person (including their forefathers), neither will He judge/condemn the reprobate on the basis of his/her sin "nature" (again, He judges and condemns on the basis of what people actually do/say/think personally).

 

500 years ago Calvin and Servetus hashed this out as "free will" adherent Servetus taught that infants, toddlers and the unborn go to Hell if they die because they had not freely chosen to believe (even though that was beyond them). Calvin harshly and rightly criticized Servetus for holding such a view, saying that all who God allows to die at such a young age are part of His elect and are therefore bound for eternal life with Him. A sparrow cannot fall to the ground and die apart from the Father's will, and neither will we, whether we be elect or reprobate.

 

In Christ,

David

Romans 2

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

 

David Lee: "the Bible makes it pretty clear that Hell has to be "earned" by us"

 

Sounds like "works" based salvation in reverse; or what we don't do that gets us to heaven. Scripture, to me, says we "earned" hell at an early age:

 

Romans 5:12 Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [ no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in [a state of] iniquity; my mother was sinful who conceived me [and I too am sinful].

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

Job 14:4 "Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one!

Hebrews 11:6 "without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God

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David Lee

commented

01-14-2018, 02:54 PM

David Lee: "the
makes it pretty clear that Hell has to be "earned" by us"

 

Fastfredy0: Sounds like "works" based salvation in reverse; or what we don't do that gets us to heaven. Scripture, to me, says we "earned" hell at an early age:

 

 

Right! Romans 6:23 tells us that "The WAGES of sin is death...........................but the free gift of God is eternal life, in Christ Jesus our Lord". The reprobate 'earns' his/her own way into Hell by the things they do (and fail to do), but eternal life is a free gift from God to His elect, earned for us by things that were done for us by our Lord and Savior alone, the precious Lamb of God. He is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the atonement for all of our sins.

 

In Christ,

David

 

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David Lee

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01-14-2018, 03:00 PM

Adam is the federal head of the entire human race just as Christ is the federal head of those given Him. The question then becomes whether Adam's sin is imputed us, and based on Adam's sin as our head, is enough to condemn everyone? I believe so, that is, original sin and/or Adam's unrighteousness is imputed us at conception and results in everyone's fate apart from Christ.

 

Hi William, no one denies that sin has affected all of us w/o exception (as the most common quote among us, "nobody's perfect", testifies), so if our progenitors are not the cause of this most universal problem of ours, that only leaves One other who could be (and we know that's not possible). So there can be no doubt that Adam's sin was imputed to us. At the same time I believe the Bible is clear that the reprobate will be judged and condemned as worthy of Hell on the basis of what they've done 'personally', so I continue to believe that Calvin's assessment of this problem is the best one, IOW, that while God allows the elect to die as infants, He makes sure that the same fate does not happen to the reprobate .. cf Matthew 10:29. IOW, the reprobate does not die as an infant because God will see that they do not until they've reached what some call an age of accountability, IOW, to a point where it's clear that they have at least a basic knowledge and understanding of right and wrong, their consciences bearing witness to that fact which accuse them when they sin and defend them when they do not .. Romans 2:12-16.

 

Like Calvin, I do not believe that God would condemn an infant, a toddler or an unborn child to eternal damnation on the basis of their "nature" and/or their ancestor's sin alone, as that would make Him out to be a monster. I believe that this is also why no church today teaches that those who die as infants will go to Hell, because such an action would seem so out of character for the loving God we know (even the doctrine of "Limbo" has all but vanished from the teaching of the RCC today).

 

However, as has already been said here, none of this is made perfectly clear to us in the Bible, so we could all be wrong.

 

In Christ,

David

 

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David Lee

 

We really should as some cultures celebrate our first birthdays 3 months after being delivered. People seemingly think we are innocent at zero days old (in the womb) and need to live days 1-? to sin. Yet the Scriptures clearly suggest we are sinful from conception. We're actually 1 year old three months after a natural delivery date.

 

Hi William, I agree that we are sinful by nature from conception .. Psalm 51:5/Ephesians 2:1-3, but the question remains, will God hold our infants who die accountable, and condemn them to eternal damnation and torment in the fires of Hell, on the basis of a sin that was not their own (or on the basis of their fallen nature)? I continue to think not (for the reason I just stated in my last post above). Like I said though, I could be wrong.

 

In Christ,

David

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Sue D.

There's the concept of the age of accountability that I've held to -- In the Old Testament -- David and Bathsheba's infant son died -- David makes the comment that his infant son won't come back to him, but that he, David, will be with him in the future. How can an infant or mentally disabled person acknowledge their need For salvation -- believe in their heart and confess with their mouths, the Lord Jesus -- being saved as the passage states in Romans -- if they don't have any concept Of right or wrong. No way to believe Anything in their heart or verbalize it.

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CDF47
There's the concept of the age of accountability that I've held to -- In the Old Testament -- David and Bathsheba's infant son died -- David makes the comment that his infant son won't come back to him, but that he, David, will be with him in the future. How can an infant or mentally disabled person acknowledge their need For salvation -- believe in their heart and confess with their mouths, the Lord Jesus -- being saved as the passage states in Romans -- if they don't have any concept Of right or wrong. No way to believe Anything in their heart or verbalize it.

 

That is a good example. I too believe infants and mentally disabled are saved.

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Fastfredy0

commented

01-14-2018, 03:00 PM

Adam is the federal head of the entire human race just as Christ is the federal head of those given Him. The question then becomes whether Adam's sin is imputed us, and based on Adam's sin as our head, is enough to condemn everyone? I believe so, that is, original sin and/or Adam's unrighteousness is imputed us at conception and results in everyone's fate apart from Christ.

 

Hi William, no one denies that sin has affected all of us w/o exception (as the most common quote among us, "nobody's perfect", testifies), so if our progenitors are not the cause of this most universal problem of ours, that only leaves One other who could be (and we know that's not possible). So there can be no doubt that Adam's sin was imputed to us. At the same time I believe the Bible is clear that the reprobate will be judged and condemned as worthy of Hell on the basis of what they've done 'personally', so I continue to believe that Calvin's assessment of this problem is the best one, IOW, that while God allows the elect to die as infants, He makes sure that the same fate does not happen to the reprobate .. cf Matthew 10:29. IOW, the reprobate does not die as an infant because God will see that they do not until they've reached what some call an age of accountability, IOW, to a point where it's clear that they have at least a basic knowledge and understanding of right and wrong, their consciences bearing witness to that fact which accuse them when they sin and defend them when they do not .. Romans 2:12-16.

 

Like Calvin, I do not believe that God would condemn an infant, a toddler or an unborn child to eternal damnation on the basis of their "nature" and/or their ancestor's sin alone, as that would make Him out to be a monster. I believe that this is also why no church today teaches that those who die as infants will go to Hell, because such an action would seem so out of character for the loving God we know (even the doctrine of "Limbo" has all but vanished from the teaching of the RCC today).

 

However, as has already been said here, none of this is made perfectly clear to us in the Bible, so we could all be wrong.

 

In Christ,

David

Quick math (some approximations and guesses). About 4 million births in America. Googles says 650,000 abortions and 20% miscarriages for another 800,000. So that is 1,450,000 / 4,000,000 is about 25%. I can't google how many americans are regenerated. I guess 5%. So, with many approximations and one guess and no number for those mentally incapacitated or those who die before age of accountability .... I would hesitantly say that 80% of elect Americans go to be with God despite not having faith even though it is impossible to please God without faith.

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Fastfredy0
There's the concept of the age of accountability that I've held to -- In the Old Testament -- David and Bathsheba's infant son died -- David makes the comment that his infant son won't come back to him, but that he, David, will be with him in the future. How can an infant or mentally disabled person acknowledge their need For salvation -- believe in their heart and confess with their mouths, the Lord Jesus -- being saved as the passage states in Romans -- if they don't have any concept Of right or wrong. No way to believe Anything in their heart or verbalize it.

 

That is a good example. I too believe infants and mentally disabled are saved.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

Using your logic of "what is fair" it seems to follow that all the people who have not heard of Christ should also be saved because, like infants, they had no opportunity for salvation. Is this your contention that "FAIRNESS" is a method of salvation? (Where "FAIRNESS" in this case means a legitimate opportunity/change/ability to self determine?)

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CDF47
There's the concept of the age of accountability that I've held to -- In the Old Testament -- David and Bathsheba's infant son died -- David makes the comment that his infant son won't come back to him, but that he, David, will be with him in the future. How can an infant or mentally disabled person acknowledge their need For salvation -- believe in their heart and confess with their mouths, the Lord Jesus -- being saved as the passage states in Romans -- if they don't have any concept Of right or wrong. No way to believe Anything in their heart or verbalize it.

 

That is a good example. I too believe infants and mentally disabled are saved.

It could also be that people that never heard the Word of God are also saved as the law is written on their hearts.

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ConfessionalLutheran

The only sin that the unborn are guilty of is Original Sin, which afflicts us all from the moment of conception. Jesus' attitude? Luke 18:16, Matthew 18:3, Matthew 18:6, and Matthew 18:10. I have no doubt in my heart that God will immediately take back the souls of His little ones to Himself after they've been so cruelly murdered by parents and doctors who will one day have to give an accounting.

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CDF47
The only sin that the unborn are guilty of is Original Sin, which afflicts us all from the moment of conception. Jesus' attitude? Luke 18:16, Matthew 18:3, Matthew 18:6, and Matthew 18:10. I have no doubt in my heart that God will immediately take back the souls of His little ones to Himself after they've been so cruelly murdered by parents and doctors who will one day have to give an accounting.

 

I agree

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