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Hidden Manna

The worm, and their worm that dies not

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In Mark 9:43-48 we read And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”

 

Jesus in the above parable is showing us the importance of the removal of sin in our lives by symbolizing sin as bad members of our body. Paul also spun off of this parable in his teachings in Romans 7 when he spoke of sin working in our members, and how it is needful to put to death these sinful members like Jesus said to “cut it off” and “pluck it out.”

 

Their worm that does not die in the above parable is speaking of sin; and you could imagine the torment of sin being like a worm that is ever eating at your conscience and soul. Jesus said of those who did not believe in Him in John 8:24 “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

So the removal of sin is necessary so we do not die in our sins. And that is where Jesus came in for us, who was also made to be sin for us. 2 Corinthians 5:21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

Which is also why Jesus is shown as a worm in Psalm 22:6 “But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.”

 

The word worm there in Psalm 22 is Strongs H8438 shown in the following manner: scarlet (34x), worm (8x), crimson (1x). Bible usage…worm, scarlet stuff, crimson, worm - the female 'coccus ilicis', scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet, the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis".

There are some interesting symbolisms found in this worm “coccus ilicis” But the message here in the color is significant in unlocking the mystery of why we see a Red Dragon, and scarlet colored beast in scripture.

 

The reason being is because the Lord showed sin in mankind as red, just as Adam means “earthy, red

Notice what the Lord says here in Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”

 

Our old sinful man nature was meant to be crucified with Jesus, thus destroying the body of sin. Romans 6:6 “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

And when we are raised up a new man in Christ and washed clean, we are also given new white garments which are meant to be kept clean from being spotted by the flesh.

 

Just like the law condemned sin to death in the flesh, so also did Jesus by being made sin for us and dying in the flesh. Romans 8:3 “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”

 

But the law was weak because of our own fleshy nature, thus the need for us to be born again of the Spirit of God and be made the righteousness of God in Christ. But those who are still in the flesh are still under the condemnation of sin, just as it is written, He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

And here in Romans 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

 

In order to be “in Christ” and walk after “the Spirit”, you must be born again of the Spirit.

John 3:6-7 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”

 

May the Lord bless you and yours, Mark

 

 

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I think the "fire" is a torture in the hell, which is outside of the soul, and the "worm" is a torture which is inside of the soul. "The worm doesn't die" means that this torture is eternal.

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Hello Hidden Manna,

 

You wrote: "Their worm that does not die in the above parable is speaking of sin; and you could imagine the torment of sin being like a worm that is ever eating at your conscience and soul." What makes you think that was a parable. Maybe it wasn't. For another take read my blog "THE WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT" in this website.'

 

Yours,

 

Deade

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Hello Hidden Manna,

What makes you think that was a parable. Maybe it wasn't. For another take read my blog "THE WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT" in this website.'

 

Yours,

 

Deade

Because Jesus taught in parables.....Matthew 13:34 "All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:"

 

 

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I think the "fire" is a torture in the hell, which is outside of the soul, and the "worm" is a torture which is inside of the soul. "The worm doesn't die" means that this torture is eternal.

 

Here is a thread I posted on what I believe the everlasting fire is----->>>>>https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/bible-study/56862-the-everlasting-fire-and-the-forever-smoke-of-burning

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Because Jesus taught in parables.....Matthew 13:34 "All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:"

Luke 8:10 NASB And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND."

 

Parables were for the masses, Jesus spoke in non-parables to his Disciples.

 

Mark 9:38-50 NASB

38 John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.

 

40 For he who is not against us is for us. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink [fn]because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.

42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into [fn]hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [not found in early manuscripts] 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [not found in early manuscripts] 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

 

49 “For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

 

Verse 38 indicates that in this part of Mark, Jesus is speaking to John and the Disciples rather than the multitude. There is some reason to suspect hyperbole, but no reason to think this is a Parable.

God Bless,

 

Arthur.

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Luke 8:10 NASB And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND."

 

Parables were for the masses, Jesus spoke in non-parables to his Disciples.

 

Mark 9:38-50 NASB

38 John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.

 

40 For he who is not against us is for us. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink [fn]because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.

42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into [fn]hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [not found in early manuscripts] 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [not found in early manuscripts] 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

 

49 “For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

 

Verse 38 indicates that in this part of Mark, Jesus is speaking to John and the Disciples rather than the multitude. There is some reason to suspect hyperbole, but no reason to think this is a Parable.

God Bless,

 

Arthur.

Excellent job Atpollard. Also note Mark 9:48 is not even a parable. It is a quote from Isa. 66:24.

 

For as the new heavens and the new earth

that I make

shall remain before me, says the LORD,

so shall your offspring and your name remain.

 

From new moon to new moon,

and from Sabbath to Sabbath,

all flesh shall come to worship before me,

declares the LORD.

 

And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

The text is eschatological.
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It was those who were without understanding (understanding given by God) that would not be able to hear and understand what the Spirit was saying in all the parables, similitude's, and mysteries contained in God's word.

 

[h=1]Mark 4:11-13(KJV)[/h] 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

 

 

 

Here is a thread I wrote on the topic---->>>https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/bible-study/56958-the-word-is-spoken-in-a-mystery

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It was those who were without understanding (understanding given by God) that would not be able to hear and understand what the Spirit was saying in all the parables, similitude's, and mysteries contained in God's word.

 

Mark 4:11-13(KJV)

 

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

 

The logic flaw of that approach is that the Bible can mean anything except the plain meaning of the text ... making it worthless as a yardstick for testing the truth of claims. We might as well just pick a Pope so at least Christians can have some authority to agree upon.

 

I prefer to think that Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said, unless the context makes it clear that it is a parable ... like the section of Matthew where Jesus tells, then explains, parable after parable. Why would Jesus lie and add unnecessary false details about the afterlife just to confuse listeners? You are casting dispersion on Jesus' moral character by advocating a form of positive-positive double predestination where Jesus deliberately lies to people to mislead them so they will not understand the gospel. That is just messed up. I can't accept that premise as a starting point for interpreting scripture. Truth is only hidden by our blindness, not God's deception.

 

I view Mark 9 as a straight forward warning that sin is bad and we should do whatever it takes to fight against sin in OUR lives (with a cold stone sober picture of 'or else').

I'm sticking with that P.O.V.

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Thank you Origen,

 

For this: "Excellent job Atpollard. Also note Mark 9:48 is not even a parable. It is a quote from Isa. 66:24."

 

That was the point I was making.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

Sorry I did not see that Deade. You are correct it is not a parable at all. A parable is "a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson." While there is a spiritual lesson, it is not a story.

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The logic flaw of that approach is that the Bible can mean anything except the plain meaning of the text ... making it worthless as a yardstick for testing the truth of claims. We might as well just pick a Pope so at least Christians can have some authority to agree upon.

 

I prefer to think that Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said, unless the context makes it clear that it is a parable ... like the section of Matthew where Jesus tells, then explains, parable after parable. Why would Jesus lie and add unnecessary false details about the afterlife just to confuse listeners? You are casting dispersion on Jesus' moral character by advocating a form of positive-positice double predestination where Jesus deliberately lies to people to mislead them so they will not understand the gospel. That is just messed up. I can't accept that premise as a starting point for interpreting scripture. Truth is only hidden by our blindness, not God's deception.

 

I view Mark 9 as a straight forward warning that sin is bad and we should do whatever it takes to fight against sin in OUR lives (with a cold stone sober picture of 'or else').

I'm sticking with that P.O.V.

Amen brother.

 

 

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Sorry I did not see that Deade. You are correct it is not a parable at all. A parable is "a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson." While there is a spiritual lesson, it is not a story.

 

Well Origen,

 

My blog I had to pull down, I'm getting ready to send my book to be published. What I suggested was the unquenchable fire and the everlasting worm (maggot) may be an instance where it was taped. Stored on film, tape or digitally archived. Like the Holocaust, it will always be with us. Something to think about anyway.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

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Well Origen,

 

My blog I had to pull down, I'm getting ready to send my book to be published. What I suggested was the unquenchable fire and the everlasting worm (maggot) may be an instance where it was taped. Stored on film, tape or digitally archived. Like the Holocaust, it will always be with us. Something to think about anyway.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

The symbolism is clear from the context. The LORD refers to "the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me..." That makes it is eschatological. Whether it is literal or not, the imagery shows the ultimate fate of the enemies of God. They have been defeated and that defeat is complete.

 

The most important point for me is that it has nothing to do with the removal of sin as the OP states, not in Isa 6:24 nor in Mark 9:48. Jesus would have know the context and used the verse correctly. Thus the OP is an extraordinary example of poor interpretation.

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There was a young man years ago who took Mark 9:43-48 at face value and as being literal, not understanding it was a parable. This young man ended up cutting off his private part literally because he took those words of Jesus literally, and not as a comparison of sin being like bad body parts which needs be removed.

 

If people want to take that parable at face value and start plucking out their eyes and cutting off their hands literally, then that to me just proves they are without understanding in the parable.

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Paul confirms the message of Jesus' parable in Mark 9:43-48 here---->>>> [h=1]Colossians 3:5-6[/h] 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:"

 

Those who have been given ears to hear, let them hear what the Spirit is saying.

 

 

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Paul confirms the message of Jesus' parable in Mark 9:43-48 here---->>>> Colossians 3:5-6

 

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:"

 

Those who have been given ears to hear, let them hear what the Spirit is saying.

None of that address the issues raised against your claims. Quoting more verses out of context does nothing to help your case.

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There was a young man years ago who took Mark 9:43-48 at face value and as being literal, not understanding it was a parable. This young man ended up cutting off his private part literally because he took those words of Jesus literally, and not as a comparison of sin being like bad body parts which needs be removed.

 

If people want to take that parable at face value and start plucking out their eyes and cutting off their hands literally, then that to me just proves they are without understanding in the parable.

None of this addressed your claim that Mark 9:48 is a parable when in fact it is not.

 

As for my name sake, no one cares.

 

 

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None of that address the issues raised again your claims. Quoting more verses out of context does nothing to help your case.

 

I just proved by scripture that the context of the parable is sin being like bad body parts, or "members" of the body which needs be put to death, ie plucked out, or cut off.

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I just proved by scripture that the context of the parable is sin being like bad body parts, or "members" of the body which needs be put to death, ie plucked out, or cut off.
lol Your point was that it is a parable. That does not prove it is a parable. However I proven beyond all doubt it is a quote from Isa 66:24. I also proven beyond all doubt the passage is eschatological. And the reason Jesus quotes Isa 66:24 is eschatological (i.e. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell...). You seem to forget the claims you made.

 

While sin would be included, Jesus thinking is broader than that. Jesus' point is that we should not let anything get between us and the kingdom. Nothing is more important than the kingdom. That is the eschatological link between the two passages. We want to be on the inside not the outside.

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lol Your point was that it is a parable. That does not prove it is a parable. However I proven beyond all doubt it is a quote from Isa 66:24. I also proven beyond all doubt the passage is eschatological. And the reason Jesus quotes Isa 66:24 is eschatological (i.e. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell...). You seem to forget the claims you made.

 

While sin would be included, Jesus thinking is broader than that. Jesus' point is that we should not let anything get between us and the kingdom. Nothing is more important than the kingdom. That is the eschatological link between the two passages. We want to be on the inside not the outside.

 

Yes, I believe it is a parable, as I've already showed by scripture Jesus taught using parables, and I also showed how Paul used the same parable symbolizing sin as working in our "members" and the need to put to death those bad members, or body parts symbolized in Jesus parable as like sin ---->>>>5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: (notice sin is symbolized as "members" of the body like in Jesus' parable)

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:"

 

 

 

Also I am well aware of Isaiah 66:24, which is also a similitude speaking the same message in Jesus parable concerning their sin and their worm that dies not. As God also said He spoke by the prophets (Like Isaiah) using similitude's.

 

 

Hosea 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. (like Isaiah)

 

 

Matthew 13:34 "All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

 

 

Mark 4:34 "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

 

So yes, I believe the language is symbolic in both the similitude and in the parable. As I believe the above proof text that confirm all my points and beliefs. But if you don't believe it is a parable then we will have to agree to disagree. Peace and God bless

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Yes, I believe it is a parable, as I've already showed by scripture Jesus taught using parables
The issue is NOT if Jesus taught in parables but if Mark 9:48 is a parable. You miss that point over and over again. The fact is it isn't a parable and you have done nothing to prove it is.

 

I also showed how Paul used the same parable symbolizing sin as working in our "members" and the need to put to death those bad members, or body parts symbolized in Jesus parable as like sin ---->>>>5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: (notice sin is symbolized as "members" of the body like in Jesus' parable)6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:"
Symbolism and parables are not the same thing. While parables can use symbolism, a parable is "a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson." Mark 9:48 is not a story.

 

Also I am well aware of Isaiah 66:24
So you claim now but the fact that you left that very important point out say otherwise.

 

which is also a similitude speaking the same message in Jesus parable concerning their sin and their worm that dies not. As God also said He spoke by the prophets (Like Isaiah) using similitude's.
You continue to make the same error (among others). You do not understand the differences usages of figurative language. You lump everything into the same category without understanding the different nuances of the types and usages.

 

So yes, I believe the language is symbolic in both the similitude and in the parable.
Again you have missed the point. The fact is you NEVER prove it is a parable. You NEVER even tried. You just declared it is a parable. You NEVER even gave a definition of what a parable is which ought to have been your first step.

 

As I believe the above proof text that confirm all my points and beliefs.
That does not work because you have ignored the context. The verses you cite refer to the multitude. In this case there was no multitude but his disciples. @atpollard pointed this out to you in post 6 but you ignored it. If you ignore the context and simply make up your own you will get no where studying the Bible.

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