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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.

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Just Mike

Should Reformed Baptist accept a persons Baptism?

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davidtaylorjr
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

In question and answer 69, the Heidelberg Catechism takes up baptism, which is the first of two sacraments that Jesus has given to His church. Baptism is the sacrament of initiation that marks its recipients as members of the visible covenant community. Those who have been washed with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have been set apart from the world and given a distinct calling to be God’s royal priesthood and exclusive, distinctive people (1 Peter 2:9).

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

I disagree, the catholic (little c) means the Invisible church as well if you take it in the context of the Apostle's Creed.

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William
Staff
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

In question and answer 69, the Heidelberg Catechism takes up baptism, which is the first of two sacraments that Jesus has given to His church. Baptism is the sacrament of initiation that marks its recipients as members of the visible covenant community. Those who have been washed with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have been set apart from the world and given a distinct calling to be God’s royal priesthood and exclusive, distinctive people (1 Peter 2:9).

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

Of course the universal sense applies to the Invisible church, as it is made up of the Elect from every tribe, tongue, and nation, past, present, and yet to be (future). My point being is that universal catholic does not necessarily mean "regenerate" as catholic applies to the Visible aspect of the church as well as Invisible. Here's a more in depth article on the subject for anyone wishing to take this discussion further: https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/reformed-theology/68698-the-visible-vs-the-invisible-church

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Sue D.
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

In question and answer 69, the Heidelberg Catechism takes up baptism, which is the first of two sacraments that Jesus has given to His church. Baptism is the sacrament of initiation that marks its recipients as members of the visible covenant community. Those who have been washed with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have been set apart from the world and given a distinct calling to be God’s royal priesthood and exclusive, distinctive people (1 Peter 2:9).

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

@ William -- Why would a local church accept people as Members of that church and extend privileges to them IF they have never accepted Christ as their Savior. Any church I've gone to are believers 1st and Then baptized and become members of that church. Hence, the local body of believers. They gather together to edify each other, worship together. Use their spiritual gifts to help the church. And we are Also to go out into our communities and share Gospel with others. And when non-believers come to church, they will hear Gospel and, hopefully accept Christ in the process.

 

Any organization in a community -- people join / become members Because they support the group.

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Sue D.
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

In question and answer 69, the Heidelberg Catechism takes up baptism, which is the first of two sacraments that Jesus has given to His church. Baptism is the sacrament of initiation that marks its recipients as members of the visible covenant community. Those who have been washed with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have been set apart from the world and given a distinct calling to be God’s royal priesthood and exclusive, distinctive people (1 Peter 2:9).

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

@ William -- I Should have asked what the STOP stands for. It's an acrostic?

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Just Mike
Are you saying Baptism can't be private? I know on a few who got saved and the person took then down to a river and baptized them right then and there. Is that not a true baptism?

 

Actually that still is a public baptism...

I don't call two people public, but then again....

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Just Mike
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

In question and answer 69, the Heidelberg Catechism takes up baptism, which is the first of two sacraments that Jesus has given to His church. Baptism is the sacrament of initiation that marks its recipients as members of the visible covenant community. Those who have been washed with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have been set apart from the world and given a distinct calling to be God’s royal priesthood and exclusive, distinctive people (1 Peter 2:9).

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

I know I have said this before, but still is worth putting my nickle in, I would not accept a Roman Catholic Baptism any more than I would a JW's. They are being Baptized in a Church that is so far off Doctrine wise, how could we accept the false faith they were baptized under. I know few agree with me, but I love you any ways.

Edited by Just Mike

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Just Mike
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

 

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

 

Speaking for what I was taught in a Southern Baptist College and a American Baptist Seminary, and this is what I teach; The Universal Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, Believers who are genuinely Followers of Jesus Christ, thus the Universal Catholic Church. However I believe there are some Baptist denominations and nondenominational Bapitsts that are not in agreement with this.

 

Now to further complicate all this; just as the thief on the cross who was told he would be in Paradise that day, there will be in heaven some who were not baptized, just as the thief was not baptized.

 

Does this help? I sure hope I did not muddy up the waters too much.

Edited by Just Mike
More information to totally confuse everyone.

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Just Mike
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

In question and answer 69, the Heidelberg Catechism takes up baptism, which is the first of two sacraments that Jesus has given to His church. Baptism is the sacrament of initiation that marks its recipients as members of the visible covenant community. Those who have been washed with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have been set apart from the world and given a distinct calling to be God’s royal priesthood and exclusive, distinctive people (1 Peter 2:9).

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

I personally do not think a person just being Baptized should automatically become a member, there should be a class of expectations of members and the Covenant relationship with the church and members. Oh boy this ought to light up a fire now.

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Sue D.
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

 

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

 

Speaking for what I was taught in a Southern Baptist College and a American Baptist Seminary, and this is what I teach; The Universal Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, Believers who are genuinely Followers of Jesus Christ, thus the Universal Catholic Church. However I believe there are some Baptist denominations and nondenominational Bapitsts that are not in agreement with this.

 

Now to further complicate all this; just as the thief on the cross who was told he would be in Paradise that day, there will be in heaven some who were not baptized, just as the thief was not baptized.

 

Does this help? I sure hope I did not muddy up the waters too much.

Isn't universal the same thing as catholic? So, to avoid confusion -- simply the universal church= Body of Christ. Otherwise it Could be misread as Roman Catholic church.

 

And, yes, of course there will be those in heaven who haven't been baptized but are saved. There are many circumstances that could prevent a person from being baptized.

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William
Staff
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

 

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

 

Speaking for what I was taught in a Southern Baptist College and a American Baptist Seminary, and this is what I teach; The Universal Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, Believers who are genuinely Followers of Jesus Christ, thus the Universal Catholic Church. However I believe there are some Baptist denominations and nondenominational Bapitsts that are not in agreement with this.

 

Now to further complicate all this; just as the thief on the cross who was told he would be in Paradise that day, there will be in heaven some who were not baptized, just as the thief was not baptized.

 

Does this help? I sure hope I did not muddy up the waters too much.

The universal or catholic church includes both believers and unbelievers. Just remember how the nation of Israel had both believers and unbelievers. Unbelieving Israel shared in the same benefits and blessing of the OT covenant. We cannot see inside any man, we do not know their heart, this is what the Invisible church refers, it is the invisible aspect of the church. All we can know is what we hear or see in the Visible church. Not everyone that makes a profession of faith and is baptized is saved.

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Sue D.
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

 

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

 

Speaking for what I was taught in a Southern Baptist College and a American Baptist Seminary, and this is what I teach; The Universal Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, Believers who are genuinely Followers of Jesus Christ, thus the Universal Catholic Church. However I believe there are some Baptist denominations and nondenominational Bapitsts that are not in agreement with this.

 

Now to further complicate all this; just as the thief on the cross who was told he would be in Paradise that day, there will be in heaven some who were not baptized, just as the thief was not baptized.

 

Does this help? I sure hope I did not muddy up the waters too much.

The Holy Spirit indwelling the believer is what makes up the universal church. That's why it's referred to as the invisible church. No one can see inside a person, but 'by their fruits we can know them'.

 

You're apparently equating the Church with Israel. They are different. The Children of Israel -- 12 tribes -- the tribe of Judah is the line that Jesus Christ came from -- He's a Jew. The Children of Israel is a huge group of people.

 

It depends on what a person is 'professing' as to whether the person is a born-again believer.

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reformed baptist
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

 

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

 

William,

 

It's an interesting question, and one that baptists differ on - historically particular baptists recognize the catholic (universal) church - what don't recognize historically is a the invisible/ invisible distinction that Presbyterians do - that is because we practice (to the best of our ability) a regenerated membership hence to our minds the visible and invisible church are one and the same.

 

That being said over the years many baptists have become enamored with other opinions - for example:

 

1) Their are many reformed baptists who are little more then presbyterians with credo-baptism bolted on the side (and that just doesn't work)

2) Their are also many baptists that have embraced dispensationalism (and this might prove a little contentions) and replaced the typical baptist covenant hermeneutic with a dispensational one and should (IMNSHO) no longer be referred to as baptist in the true and historic sense of that movement

 

Both of those positions greatly influences one's view of the church - and means it is impossible to tie down one opinion of modern "baptists" in regards to the universal church

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William
Staff
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

 

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

 

William,

 

It's an interesting question, and one that baptists differ on - historically particular baptists recognize the catholic (universal) church - what don't recognize historically is a the invisible/ invisible distinction that Presbyterians do - that is because we practice (to the best of our ability) a regenerated membership hence to our minds the visible and invisible church are one and the same.

 

That being said over the years many baptists have become enamored with other opinions - for example:

 

1) Their are many reformed baptists who are little more then presbyterians with credo-baptism bolted on the side (and that just doesn't work)

2) Their are also many baptists that have embraced dispensationalism (and this might prove a little contentions) and replaced the typical baptist covenant hermeneutic with a dispensational one and should (IMNSHO) no longer be referred to as baptist in the true and historic sense of that movement

 

Both of those positions greatly influences one's view of the church - and means it is impossible to tie down one opinion of modern "baptists" in regards to the universal church

that is because we practice (to the best of our ability) a regenerated membership hence to our minds the visible and invisible church are one and the same.

 

A brotherly hug for your honesty! I can see the qualifying of membership a mile away. You are the first Credo-Baptist I have ever had the pleasure engaging that admitted qualifying people for membership based on what they consider regenerated. Of course children can't meet the standard of Credo-Baptist for membership. Credo-Baptist and Presbyterians seemingly align as to what is expected of adult converts, but of course we differ as to the status of children in the covenant church relationship.

 

What I'm still wrapping my mind around is the great divide between Baptist and Reformed Baptist concerning historic/national Israel and the Church. Thank you for referring to the American (dispensational) influenced Baptist as not being true or historic concerning the catholic universal church. I have no issue acknowledging most American (dispensational) Baptist not a member of the catholic church. No matter how hard I try it seems that they want to contend and argue that they are not members. Who am I to argue with them? :)

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reformed baptist
Curious, what is the purpose for the "public" display of baptism? Do Baptist believe in the universal catholic church and that baptism is an initiation into the church community?

 

For example:

 

 

 

Reason I ask is because I meet a fair share of Baptist which do not believe in the "catholic" church. So I'm just curious as to what purpose does a public baptism in the church community serve?

 

God bless,

William

 

William,

 

It's an interesting question, and one that baptists differ on - historically particular baptists recognize the catholic (universal) church - what don't recognize historically is a the invisible/ invisible distinction that Presbyterians do - that is because we practice (to the best of our ability) a regenerated membership hence to our minds the visible and invisible church are one and the same.

 

That being said over the years many baptists have become enamored with other opinions - for example:

 

1) Their are many reformed baptists who are little more then presbyterians with credo-baptism bolted on the side (and that just doesn't work)

2) Their are also many baptists that have embraced dispensationalism (and this might prove a little contentions) and replaced the typical baptist covenant hermeneutic with a dispensational one and should (IMNSHO) no longer be referred to as baptist in the true and historic sense of that movement

 

Both of those positions greatly influences one's view of the church - and means it is impossible to tie down one opinion of modern "baptists" in regards to the universal church

You are the first Credo-Baptist I have ever had the pleasure engaging that admitted qualifying people for membership based on what they consider regenerated.

 

Really - wow - I'm truly sorry for that! I am not the only one, let me assure you of that. In fact on this side of the pond most particular/ reformed baptists would articulate our practice in this way (or at least mean the same thing if they say it somewhat differently).

 

The idea that we might make a mistake and admit an unbeliever into membership is simply to admit that we are human (and not God) - historically baptists have admitted people into the local church based upon a credible profession of faith (the local church being the representation of the universal church in any given area/ community) and if that profession proves false, or is not being lived out then we remove that person from the membership (discipline) - thus we keep the membership as pure as we can in this world.

 

PS - thanks for the hug - consider it returned :D

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Just Mike

William how do you come to the conclusion that the UNIVERSAL CATHOLIC includes unbelievers? If those who reject Jesus Christ go to Hell how can those be in any church?.

 

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theophilus
R Baptists Acts 19:-39 Where the Ethiopian was was reading Isaiah and Philip came and asked if he understood what he was reading. and in verse 37 and the Ethiopian said "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and in verse 38 Philip went and baptized the Ethiopian. Now that was private, I have never indicated a person can baptize them self/ But even under very special conditions, where there is no other believers that might be possible. Not I say under very special circumstances. Beside that I would think if and when that person got where there was a believer that should be repeated. But I am not God Almighty, so its up to God about that.

 

I see nothing wrong what Philip did, do you?

It wasn't private. Any government official traveling a long distance would be accompanied by servants and soldiers.

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William
Staff
William how do you come to the conclusion that the UNIVERSAL CATHOLIC includes unbelievers? If those who reject Jesus Christ go to Hell how can those be in any church?.

In the OT children received the sign seal and mark of the covenant made with Israel. Children as young as eight days old were brought into the covenant. Unbelieving or not. Same today, children are received in the church, some of which walk away from the faith later in life or become apostate. Can you really honestly say that everyone within the Visible catholic church has genuine faith? Of course not, there are some which will never come to a genuine saving faith, however, they are members of the Visible church now, and they share in the blessings and benefits of a real covenant. Now some think believers are defiled by such unbelieving individuals, but 1 Corinthians 7:14 suggests even our unbelieving spouse or children are made clean and/or holy in our covenant relationships.

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davidtaylorjr
Are you saying Baptism can't be private? I know on a few who got saved and the person took then down to a river and baptized them right then and there. Is that not a true baptism?

 

Actually that still is a public baptism...

Public meaning it is in a public place. Was not done in secret.

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davidtaylorjr
William how do you come to the conclusion that the UNIVERSAL CATHOLIC includes unbelievers? If those who reject Jesus Christ go to Hell how can those be in any church?.

Quite a few churches I have been a part of do not receive children into membership until they are at least 16 and can make a profession of faith.

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William
Staff
William how do you come to the conclusion that the UNIVERSAL CATHOLIC includes unbelievers? If those who reject Jesus Christ go to Hell how can those be in any church?.

Amongst Reformed Presbyterians children are received into membership as "incommunicable" members. When they are able to make a profession of faith they become communicable members of the church, and have access to the Lord's supper.

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Just Mike

William children may be dedicated in Baptist churches, meaning the parents publicly commit to raising their child in a Christian home. That does not mean that child has the ability to accept or reject Christ, Until that child can make that choice, they are unaccountable, but when they can make that choice and don't they are no longer a child. Age is not the determining factor, but I suppose until they are able to become a follower they could be considered part of the U C. Beyond that no.

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Just Mike
R Baptists Acts 19:-39 Where the Ethiopian was was reading Isaiah and Philip came and asked if he understood what he was reading. and in verse 37 and the Ethiopian said "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and in verse 38 Philip went and baptized the Ethiopian. Now that was private, I have never indicated a person can baptize them self/ But even under very special conditions, where there is no other believers that might be possible. Not I say under very special circumstances. Beside that I would think if and when that person got where there was a believer that should be repeated. But I am not God Almighty, so its up to God about that.

 

I see nothing wrong what Philip did, do you?

theophilus, it gives us not indication that anyone witnessed it one way or the other. I will give an inch on this one, ok.

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CDF47
CDF, I love ya brother! This is one area where we will just put it near the masters feet and He can tell us when we see Him face to face. But most likely we won't even care then as we will be so amazed at just seeing Him. I have no idea what I would say when I see Him for the first time. I think I will Worship and keep saying I love you over and over again. How wonderfully awesome is He.

 

Same to you Just Mike. That's right, time will tell. We will find out one day.

@Just Mike, I agree!

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CDF47
In my opinion, if a person was ever baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit I feel their baptism is acceptable.

Yes, I believe even a Roman Catholic.

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Sue D.
William children may be dedicated in Baptist churches, meaning the parents publicly commit to raising their child in a Christian home. That does not mean that child has the ability to accept or reject Christ, Until that child can make that choice, they are unaccountable, but when they can make that choice and don't they are no longer a child. Age is not the determining factor, but I suppose until they are able to become a follower they could be considered part of the U C. Beyond that no.

Yes, pastors Do have baby dedications during a church service. The parents bring the baby and any family members who want to join them, do, in the front of the church. They promise to bring the baby / child up in Bible -- teaching them God's Word -- that it is very important for the child / family. But that does Not guarantee anything with that child. Sometimes as children reach puberty, they go in a different direction. Sometimes, in spite of Biblical standards being taught / practiced in the home -- teens will make poor choices and end up in places their parents would never have dreamed they'd end up in.

 

Yes, a child / person Does need to be able to understand right from wrong. Realize they Have done something wrong and feel remorse for having done that 'thing'.

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