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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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What does love thy enemy and forgiveness mean to you and how far do we as Christians need to take these Ideals

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I see love as an all or nothing this. I thank forgiveness is something we do to releace ourselves from the burden of the hurt and anguish that happens when we wrong eachother, but love is a far deeper and a far wider thing than just the word. Love is caring and concern for another's well being and an intence desire for them to be successful in life. I think it is an all or nothing thing that if you don't have love in your heart, then all you will have for those who are around you is a tolerant spirit.

 

I was just wondering how we are to say and act as Christians, even among ourselves to follow Christ's teachings in this matter.

 

I remember hearing my aunt say that God told her to love a person that she mortally hated and so she said she would love them. I just don't get the Idea that we can fabricate love instantaneously

 

I look around the world and I see strife almost everywhere. I hear some of the remarks from Christians about liberals and I ask myself, do I truly understand what love is or are these who use stereotypical references to those in the liberal community as if they were all the same. I ask you about this, because I don't see nastiness as being anything Biblical, wither we have been wronged or nor.

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C. S. Lewis wrote a book called The Four Loves in which he discussed what the Bible teaches about love. He pointed out that there are four Greek words which are translated in English as love. A lot of misunderstanding results form confusing these different kinds of love. There is a wikipedia article that defines them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves

 

The first three involve how we feel about another person. The fourth kind, agape, involves a decision to act in a way that brings about good for the other person. It is easier to practice this kind of love if you like the person, but liking him isn't necessary. I believe there is a lot of confusion about the subject because most people don't know anything about this kind of love.

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C. S. Lewis wrote a book called The Four Loves in which he discussed what the Bible teaches about love. He pointed out that there are four Greek words which are translated in English as love. A lot of misunderstanding results form confusing these different kinds of love. There is a wikipedia article that defines them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves

 

The first three involve how we feel about another person. The fourth kind, agape, involves a decision to act in a way that brings about good for the other person. It is easier to practice this kind of love if you like the person, but liking him isn't necessary. I believe there is a lot of confusion about the subject because most people don't know anything about this kind of love.

 

I am familiar with the different forms of love, but what I wanted to concentrate on is what Jesus was speaking about and the level of what I would call tolerance that so many people have for others's instead of love. Christianity being under an increased assault for the last few years I think has caused tempers to fray and anger with those who have been lead by the elitist left for being lead to do what they have been lead to do.

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The Bible says be slow to anger and hate evil so we can love an enemy (an individual person) but still be angry with them and hate their evil behavior. We can also hate evil systems.

 

Love is a deep affection and caring for another person so we are to have that love for our enemies. The Didache teaches we should pray and fast for our enemies that they might be saved. My hope is that as many will be saved as possible. I am not a universalist but I hope many are forgiven and saved. I believe the truly wicked will be destroyed along with the entire universe. We are to have a deep affection for everyone, including our enemies but we may still be angry at them (slowly) and hate their evil actions. We are not to hate them as individuals.

 

Our Men of War may war with them or defend their country as lead by their leaders. So they may kill their enemies but still should love them. It is their job. Same is true for the police who should protect and serve but may need to kill in self-defense which is also allowed in the Bible. They should still love the person they killed though.

 

This is the type of love I believe the Lord was referring to.

Edited by CDF47
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The Bible says be slow to anger and hate evil so we can love an enemy (an individual person) but still be angry with them and hate their evil behavior. We can also hate evil systems.

 

Love is a deep affection and caring for another person so we are to have that love for our enemies. The Didache teaches we should pray and fast for our enemies that they might be saved. My hope is that as many will be saved as possible. I am not a universalist but I hope many are forgiven and saved. I believe the truly wicked will be destroyed along with the entire universe. We are to have a deep affection for everyone, including our enemies but we may still be angry at them (slowly) and hate their evil actions. We are not to hate them as individuals.

 

Our Men of War may war with them or defend their country as lead by their leaders. So they may kill their enemies but still should love them. It is their job. Same is for the police who should protect and serve but may need to kill in self-defense which is also allowed in the Bible. They should still love the person they killed though.

 

This is the type of love I believe the Lord was referring to.

 

I thank you for this.

 

One thing though.What is Evil. Those that act because they have been indoctrinated into believing in something wicked. There are droves of people out there who are absolutely lost because of the impressionability of their youth. Who is it or what is it that is so evil that it deserves to be hated by us?

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I thank you for this.

 

One thing though.What is Evil. Those that act because they have been indoctrinated into believing in something wicked. There are droves of people out there who are absolutely lost because of the impressionability of their youth. Who is it or what is it that is so evil that it deserves to be hated by us?

 

I define evil as actions that are not righteous in the sight of God. Evil actions are very immoral. Love the sinner but hate the sin. Murder, theft, lying, idolatry, adultery, fornication, blasphemy, disrespect to parents, and envy are some evil actions. The evil force behind this that persuades evil is ultimately satan and his followers. Humans that choose to act evil are to be loved but their actions and behavior are to be hated.

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I define evil as actions that are not righteous in the sight of God. Evil actions are very immoral. Love the sinner but hate the sin. Murder, theft, lying, idolatry, adultery, fortification, blasphemy, disrespect to parents, and envy are some evil actions. The evil force behind this that persuades evil is ultimately satan and his followers. Humans that choose to act evil are to be loved but their actions and behavior are to be hated.

 

Amen.

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Who is it or what is it that is so evil that it deserves to be hated by us?

We are not to hate the people who oppose us. We must love them and try to share the gospel with them so they can turn from their evil ways. Our real enemies, the ones we should hate, are the spiritual forces that keep people from the truth.

 

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Ephesians 6:12 ESV

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We are not to hate the people who oppose us. We must love them and try to share the gospel with them so they can turn from their evil ways. Our real enemies, the ones we should hate, are the spiritual forces that keep people from the truth.

 

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Ephesians 6:12 ESV

 

Amen. God bless you for this.

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I have a different viewpoint as outlined by these observations (not my own writings)

 

(Matthew 5:43-48). Called the love of benevolence, it includes no spiritual benefit, and none of that concern that a father would have for his children. Why does God provide natural benefits to the reprobates? See Romans 9:13-26

 

A person is the aggregate of his thoughts and actions, and the thoughts and actions of the reprobate are continuously evil, so the totality of his life is evil … then it is nonsense to say that we should love the sinner and hate the sin, since one cannot be considered apart from the other. One does not know who is God’s reprobate so one should be watchful. Christ’s command tells us only to do good to those who hate us. It is like the natural benevolence that God shows toward all men (Matthew 5:43-45). But we should have “nothing but hatred” (Psalm 139:21-22) toward non-Christians in the sense that we oppose all of who they are, what they believe, and what they do. We strive to diminish their influence and undermine their agenda by the gospel of Jesus Christ. Contrary to popular belief, we are even to rejoice over God’s punishments upon the non-Christians ????? (Leviticus 20:23; Deuteronomy 18:12; Deuteronomy 25:16; Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:4-5,6; Psalm 11:5; Psalm 58:10a; Proverbs 3:32a; Proverbs 6:16–19; Nahum 1:2; Hosea 9:15; John 3:36b; Romans 9:13; Romans 9:22; Romans 12:9; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10, 11; Revelation 18:20).

 

To illustrate, to regard the Christian faith as false is to hate a believer at the deepest level possible, since the content of the Christian faith permeates all of my thinking and behavior. If there is any aspect of my life that is not yet controlled by biblical precepts, it is only because I am still imperfect in sanctification, and not that I oppose Scripture on the matter. Therefore, for a person who regards Christianity as false, there is nothing in me for him to love. He cannot love me and hate my beliefs—I am my beliefs; I am a Christian.

 

Likewise, I may treat a non-Christian with kindness in speech and action, but if I regard his entire worldview as stupid and his whole lifestyle as sinful, and if it is my mission from God to arrange all aspects of my life in opposition to the non-Christian’s worldview and lifestyle, then I indeed hate him at the deepest level possible.

 

The reason we do good to the non-Christians even though God has “nothing but hatred” (Psalm 139:21-22) for them is that God has reserved for himself the right to avenge his own honor and to avenge his chosen ones. (Romans 12:19)

 

 

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I have a different viewpoint as outlined by these observations (not my own writings)

 

(Matthew 5:43-48). Called the love of benevolence, it includes no spiritual benefit, and none of that concern that a father would have for his children. Why does God provide natural benefits to the reprobates? See Romans 9:13-26

 

A person is the aggregate of his thoughts and actions, and the thoughts and actions of the reprobate are continuously evil, so the totality of his life is evil … then it is nonsense to say that we should love the sinner and hate the sin, since one cannot be considered apart from the other. One does not know who is God’s reprobate so one should be watchful. Christ’s command tells us only to do good to those who hate us. It is like the natural benevolence that God shows toward all men (Matthew 5:43-45). But we should have “nothing but hatred” (Psalm 139:21-22) toward non-Christians in the sense that we oppose all of who they are, what they believe, and what they do. We strive to diminish their influence and undermine their agenda by the gospel of Jesus Christ. Contrary to popular belief, we are even to rejoice over God’s punishments upon the non-Christians ????? (Leviticus 20:23; Deuteronomy 18:12; Deuteronomy 25:16; Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:4-5,6; Psalm 11:5; Psalm 58:10a; Proverbs 3:32a; Proverbs 6:16–19; Nahum 1:2; Hosea 9:15; John 3:36b; Romans 9:13; Romans 9:22; Romans 12:9; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10, 11; Revelation 18:20).

 

To illustrate, to regard the Christian faith as false is to hate a believer at the deepest level possible, since the content of the Christian faith permeates all of my thinking and behavior. If there is any aspect of my life that is not yet controlled by biblical precepts, it is only because I am still imperfect in sanctification, and not that I oppose Scripture on the matter. Therefore, for a person who regards Christianity as false, there is nothing in me for him to love. He cannot love me and hate my beliefs—I am my beliefs; I am a Christian.

 

Likewise, I may treat a non-Christian with kindness in speech and action, but if I regard his entire worldview as stupid and his whole lifestyle as sinful, and if it is my mission from God to arrange all aspects of my life in opposition to the non-Christian’s worldview and lifestyle, then I indeed hate him at the deepest level possible.

 

The reason we do good to the non-Christians even though God has “nothing but hatred” (Psalm 139:21-22) for them is that God has reserved for himself the right to avenge his own honor and to avenge his chosen ones. (Romans 12:19)

 

 

Doesn't this assume that everybody outside the faith is against God. I know several who are so tired of Christians mixing politics with our religion and acting so much like those of the opposing party that they can't see any difference between the way the left deals with the right or the right acts towards the left. They aren't against God. They are against siding with people who act like the very people they claim to be morally superior too.

 

Jesus ate with sinners and publicans. He sent the night with a corrupt tax collector. Aren't we to emulate him?

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Doesn't this assume that everybody outside the faith is against God.

Everyone outside the faith is against God. "Without faith is it IMPOSSIBLE to please God. ... Psalm 5:5b You (God) hate all who do evil. Romans 8:8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.

 

Jesus ate with sinners and publicans. He sent the night with a corrupt tax collector. Aren't we to emulate him?

I would restate "Aren't we to emulate Christ" with "we are to obey Christ". We cannot emulate God in many areas as we are not omnipotent, etc. So God will do things that we obvious can't and should not do.

 

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I have a different viewpoint as outlined by these observations (not my own writings)

 

(Matthew 5:43-48). Called the love of benevolence, it includes no spiritual benefit, and none of that concern that a father would have for his children. Why does God provide natural benefits to the reprobates? See Romans 9:13-26

 

A person is the aggregate of his thoughts and actions, and the thoughts and actions of the reprobate are continuously evil, so the totality of his life is evil … then it is nonsense to say that we should love the sinner and hate the sin, since one cannot be considered apart from the other. One does not know who is God’s reprobate so one should be watchful. Christ’s command tells us only to do good to those who hate us. It is like the natural benevolence that God shows toward all men (Matthew 5:43-45). But we should have “nothing but hatred” (Psalm 139:21-22) toward non-Christians in the sense that we oppose all of who they are, what they believe, and what they do. We strive to diminish their influence and undermine their agenda by the gospel of Jesus Christ. Contrary to popular belief, we are even to rejoice over God’s punishments upon the non-Christians ????? (Leviticus 20:23; Deuteronomy 18:12; Deuteronomy 25:16; Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:4-5,6; Psalm 11:5; Psalm 58:10a; Proverbs 3:32a; Proverbs 6:16–19; Nahum 1:2; Hosea 9:15; John 3:36b; Romans 9:13; Romans 9:22; Romans 12:9; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10, 11; Revelation 18:20).

 

To illustrate, to regard the Christian faith as false is to hate a believer at the deepest level possible, since the content of the Christian faith permeates all of my thinking and behavior. If there is any aspect of my life that is not yet controlled by biblical precepts, it is only because I am still imperfect in sanctification, and not that I oppose Scripture on the matter. Therefore, for a person who regards Christianity as false, there is nothing in me for him to love. He cannot love me and hate my beliefs—I am my beliefs; I am a Christian.

 

Likewise, I may treat a non-Christian with kindness in speech and action, but if I regard his entire worldview as stupid and his whole lifestyle as sinful, and if it is my mission from God to arrange all aspects of my life in opposition to the non-Christian’s worldview and lifestyle, then I indeed hate him at the deepest level possible.

 

The reason we do good to the non-Christians even though God has “nothing but hatred” (Psalm 139:21-22) for them is that God has reserved for himself the right to avenge his own honor and to avenge his chosen ones. (Romans 12:19)

 

 

I disagree that we should hate non-Christians. We are to preach the Word of God to them. There may be time to go to war and kill them for self-defense, like battling terrorists but that does not mean we should hate the individual. I know King David in some Psalms hates his enemy but the Lord taught us otherwise when He was here. King David was a man after the Lord's own heart but that doesn't mean he was flawless.

 

God hates the wicked and we all have wickedness in us but we are to preach to and pray for the wicked and forgive them and love them. However, we are also to defend against them when it is just and righteous to do so. The Lord will punish and destroy the wicked as stated in Scripture. Our job is to preach to them, pray for them, forgive them, and love them. However, there is a time to kill as stated in Scripture and we should hate the sins which God hates. Evil and sin are clearly defined in the Scriptures so we should know the actions and behaviors to despise.

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Doesn't this assume that everybody outside the faith is against God. I know several who are so tired of Christians mixing politics with our religion and acting so much like those of the opposing party that they can't see any difference between the way the left deals with the right or the right acts towards the left. They aren't against God. They are against siding with people who act like the very people they claim to be morally superior too.

 

Jesus ate with sinners and publicans. He sent the night with a corrupt tax collector. Aren't we to emulate him?

 

Yes, we are to emulate the Son of God, our Righteous Leader. He brandished a whip and flipped tables when it was necessary. He is a Man of Peace and a Man of War. He has a wrath and punishes sinners. He is just and righteous. He is loving, caring, and forgiving.

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Everyone outside the faith is against God. "Without faith is it IMPOSSIBLE to please God. ... Psalm 5:5b You (God) hate all who do evil. Romans 8:8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.

 

 

I would restate "Aren't we to emulate Christ" with "we are to obey Christ". We cannot emulate God in many areas as we are not omnipotent, etc. So God will do things that we obvious can't and should not do.

 

God does things we should not do; I agree, for instance he hates the wicked. We are to preach to them and pray for them. Yes, we can kill them in times of war when necessary out of hatred of their sins but not hatred of the individual. We can also kill them in self-defense but not out of hatred. We are all sinners and God has mercy on us. We are to be merciful as well to an extent as defined in Scripture.

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Everyone outside the faith is against God. "Without faith is it IMPOSSIBLE to please God. ... Psalm 5:5b You (God) hate all who do evil. Romans 8:8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.

No, that's rediculious. Are you telling me that if you met a person that has never heard of God that that person is against him? How could someone who doesn't know someone be against him? Evil is not the same as sin, as sin is a condition we live in. Evil is in the intent or the result of an action being performed.

 

I would restate "Aren't we to emulate Christ" with "we are to obey Christ". We cannot emulate God in many areas as we are not omnipotent, etc. So God will do things that we obvious can't and should not do.

 

We are to emulate what Christ taught us to do. He lead by example in doing for others what he knew that we could follow.

 

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No, that's rediculious. Are you telling me that if you met a person that has never heard of God that that person is against him? How could someone who doesn't know someone be against him? Evil is not the same as sin, as sin is a condition we live in. Evil is in the intent or the result of an action being performed.

 

 

 

We are to emulate what Christ taught us to do. He lead by example in doing for others what he knew that we could follow.

 

Exactly. He was a true Servant Leader and He led by example. We are to follow in His footsteps to the best of our abilities.

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No, that's rediculious.

Well, I obviously don't agree with your characterization of my statement as being ridiculous. You don't back up your assertion so I can't respond further.

 

Are you telling me that if you met a person that has never heard of God that that person is against him?
That is a correct interpretation of my meaning. The biblical logic goes as follows.

1) Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Therefore we can conclude that your hypothetical person does not have faith.

2) Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Therefore we know God is not pleased with the person for that person does not have faith as alluded to in point (1).

 

Now it's your turn. Give me biblical evidence to show that the person that never heard of God is for God. That the person who never heard of Christ loves God even though John 14:6 says "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well."

 

 

We are to emulate what Christ taught us to do.

This is an obtuse statement. If you don't further qualify the statement then you will have to do the following Christ like characteristics to emulate:

1) Walk on water

2) Heal the blind

3) Raise the dead

4) Obey the law

5) Reconcile God

6) Propitiate god

7) etc. etc.

I have clearly shown we are not to try to emulate in all things. Please provide your qualification(s) as to how you determine when we should and should not emulate Christ.

 

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Well, I obviously don't agree with your characterization of my statement as being ridiculous. You don't back up your assertion so I can't respond further.

 

That is a correct interpretation of my meaning. The biblical logic goes as follows.

1) Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Therefore we can conclude that your hypothetical person does not have faith.

2) Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Therefore we know God is not pleased with the person for that person does not have faith as alluded to in point (1).

 

Now it's your turn. Give me biblical evidence to show that the person that never heard of God is for God. That the person who never heard of Christ loves God even though John 14:6 says "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well."

 

 

 

This is an obtuse statement. If you don't further qualify the statement then you will have to do the following Christ like characteristics to emulate:

1) Walk on water

2) Heal the blind

3) Raise the dead

4) Obey the law

5) Reconcile God

6) Propitiate god

7) etc. etc.

I have clearly shown we are not to try to emulate in all things. Please provide your qualification(s) as to how you determine when we should and should not emulate Christ.

 

We are to emulate Him with what is within our bounds. Obviously we cannot walk on water but we can preach to lost children, as the Lord sent forth His disciples to preach to the lost children of Israel. If they did not accept the preaching, the disciples were to leave them be. We should do the same.

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Well, I obviously don't agree with your characterization of my statement as being ridiculous. You don't back up your assertion so I can't respond further.

Please don't chop off my responce and then claim I didn't respond.

 

That is a correct interpretation of my meaning. The biblical logic goes as follows.

1) Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Therefore we can conclude that your hypothetical person does not have faith.

2) Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Therefore we know God is not pleased with the person for that person does not have faith as alluded to in point (1).

 

Now it's your turn. Give me biblical evidence to show that the person that never heard of God is for God. That the person who never heard of Christ loves God even though John 14:6 says "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well."

 

number 1. I never said that a person who doesn't know God is for him. I asked you to tell me how a person who doesn't know God is against him.

 

To this you cherry pick scripture that has absolutely nothing to do with my comment and then you demand that I do what you didn't do. II read those scriptures as I do all that are given me to read. It is surprising just how little the scriptures given fit the circumstances that pertain to the question I gave you. You want me to answer you then you answer me, directly.

 

 

 

This is an obtuse statement. If you don't further qualify the statement then you will have to do the following Christ like characteristics to emulate:

1) Walk on water

2) Heal the blind

3) Raise the dead

4) Obey the law

5) Reconcile God

6) Propitiate god

7) etc. etc.

I have clearly shown we are not to try to emulate in all things. Please provide your qualification(s) as to how you determine when we should and should not emulate Christ.

 

I guess you didn't read what I posted here. I will repeat myself.

We are to emulate what Christ taught us to do. He lead by example in doing for others what he knew that we could follow.

 

Did he teach us how to walk on water?

Did he teach us how to cure the blind?

Did he teach us how to raise the dead. Get where I am getting at.

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We are to emulate Him with what is within our bounds. Obviously we cannot walk on water but we can preach to lost children, as the Lord sent forth His disciples to preach to the lost children of Israel. If they did not accept the preaching, the disciples were to leave them be. We should do the same.

 

Agreed. Christ knows us and knows the limitations of our condition and he taught us by example how to treat others and ourselves as well.

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I guess one or both of us have a communication issue. Thank for taking the time to respond. Have a good day.

 

My friend. We all need to live a learn through our own experiences in Christ and we both have different experiences that we both can grow frim by sharing our hearts and minds with eachother. We are a community of Christians that was brought together by Christ to be a community of thinkers in his name.

 

I have grown from our interactions and I hope you have, as well. You make me think and I emplore you to continue to press me as I need the support. Thank you and God bless.

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