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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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Mary: the biblical woman behind the cultural legend

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She was the mother of our Lord ,she was the cousin of Elizabeth,that she was a sinner in need of a Savior, that she was numbered among the believers at Pentecost and that she went to live with the Apostle John

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“Mary was a sinner in need of a Savior” – This intrigues me: would the Son of God (God in His own right) incarnate in a sinner?  Would Moses to build the Ark for the presence of God the Father use recycled material? Low quality wood? Weren’t the Holy Vessels of the purest gold? I’m not trying to defend the Roman Catholic tenet but I think it is quite reasonable that Mary who would shelter God the Son in her womb was preserved from original sin, to be the “immaculate” repository of God.

 

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Luk 1:46  And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 
Luk 1:47  And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 
Rom_3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 

 How far back would you be willing to  take the idea of preservation from the 'original sin"  As in her parents, grandparents etc.

For me it is not a jump to accept Christ being with out sin with Mary , a sinner as His mom. To me it just makes the whole idea of Him coming from Glory to be born that much better. 

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28 minutes ago, Becky said:

How far back would you be willing to  take the idea of preservation from the 'original sin"  As in her parents, grandparents etc.

 Good point.

 

 The thing I wonder about is, why is it that the Bible makes it very clear in quite a few passages the sinlessness of Christ but we don't see the same for Mary. Since it is so clearly spelled out for God the Son how can it not even come anywhere even close for a created being (Mary)?

 As with the worship rendered unto Mary, we once again see the RC Church elevate Mary in equivalence to God.

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Could someone, who knows NT Greek, tell me, how should Luke 1:28 be translated? In the Finnish Bible the angel says to Mary: You who have received mercy. In the English Bible Mary is highly favored.

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1 hour ago, Faber said:

 I am not very good at NT Greek, but I think you might be interested in this:

 

   http://www.jashow.org/wiki/index.php/Mary—Fully_Human,_or_Nearly_Divine%3F 

 

Thank you, that was interesting to read. What I have been thinking when reading that verse translated "You who have received grace" or "to whom grace has been given", is that Mary was someone who needed grace. So she was an ordinary human being.

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Let me say I do not know Finnish so I can only go but what you say @hanna.


The phrase "one (or she) who has received grace" makes perfect sense.  The κεχαριτωμένη is a perfect, passive, participle, single, feminine.  Participles can be used as a substantive (i.e. used as a noun).  English Bibles translate it as a vocative (i.e. the case used to indicate that a noun refers to a person being addressed).  Thus Mary being "one who has received grace" is a "favored one" (i.e. one who has been favored).  It points to Mary as being the recipient of God’s grace.  She is not the one who bestows grace.

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On 12/8/2018 at 10:55 AM, Becky said:

Luk 1:46  And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 
Luk 1:47  And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 
Rom_3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 

 How far back would you be willing to  take the idea of preservation from the 'original sin"  As in her parents, grandparents etc.

For me it is not a jump to accept Christ being with out sin with Mary , a sinner as His mom. To me it just makes the whole idea of Him coming from Glory to be born that much better. 

ASWERS

BECKY – Hi, Becky- you say: “How far back would you be willing to  take the idea of preservation from the original sin,  her parents, grandparents etc.”  My answer: no need to take anything back – Mary herself was exempt from original sin by a special grace of God, to prepare a sinless womb apt to receive God the Son.  Esther 5,2  “when the king saw Esther the queen standing in the court, she obtained favour in his sight: and the king held out to Esther the golden sceptre that was in his hand”.  Nobody could dare appear before the king, yet Esther entered.  And Esther became one –the only exception- to be spared.  Esther prefigurates Mary.  Mary was the only exception- to be spared from original sin.

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21 hours ago, hanna said:

Thank you, that was interesting to read. What I have been thinking when reading that verse translated "You who have received grace" or "to whom grace has been given", is that Mary was someone who needed grace. So she was an ordinary human being.

John 1:16 - Grace upon grace.  Mary had the grace that Almighty God wishes to give all of us; but to receive the highest honour a woman could have received a sublime, greater, special grace was needed  (particularly to be spared from original sin, as Queen Esther was spared her life).    Both Esther pleased her earthly King and Mary pleased her heavenly King.

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18 minutes ago, voltape said:

John 1:16 - Grace upon grace.  Mary had the grace that Almighty God wishes to give all of us; but to receive the highest honour a woman could have received a sublime, greater, special grace was needed  (particularly to be spared from original sin, as Queen Esther was spared her life).    Both Esther pleased her earthly King and Mary pleased her heavenly King.

Yes, perhaps Mary needed a special grace, because she was a sinner who would have the sinless Son of God as her child. Her son would be persecuted from the day he was born and soon Mary would be on her way to Egypt with Jesus and Joseph. She wouldn't have that normal life she maybe had dreamt of. Yes, a big portion of grace - grace upon grace - was needed when a young ordinary Jewish girl was called to obey God with her life.

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2 hours ago, voltape said:

ASWERS

BECKY – Hi, Becky- you say: “How far back would you be willing to  take the idea of preservation from the original sin,  her parents, grandparents etc.”  My answer: no need to take anything back – Mary herself was exempt from original sin by a special grace of God, to prepare a sinless womb apt to receive God the Son.  Esther 5,2  “when the king saw Esther the queen standing in the court, she obtained favour in his sight: and the king held out to Esther the golden sceptre that was in his hand”.  Nobody could dare appear before the king, yet Esther entered.  And Esther became one –the only exception- to be spared.  Esther prefigurates Mary.  Mary was the only exception- to be spared from original sin.

We are going to disagree .  There is no scripture that tells us Mary  was sinless We do have Scripture telling Jesus was with out sin. 

I think of Mary sorta like this :

Mary was not chosen because she was special 

She was special because she was chosen. 

 

Every mothers day i think of her at the foot of the Cross.  

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3 hours ago, voltape said:

ASWERS

BECKY – Hi, Becky- you say: “How far back would you be willing to  take the idea of preservation from the original sin,  her parents, grandparents etc.”  My answer: no need to take anything back – Mary herself was exempt from original sin by a special grace of God, to prepare a sinless womb apt to receive God the Son.  Esther 5,2  “when the king saw Esther the queen standing in the court, she obtained favour in his sight: and the king held out to Esther the golden sceptre that was in his hand”.  Nobody could dare appear before the king, yet Esther entered.  And Esther became one –the only exception- to be spared.  Esther prefigurates Mary.  Mary was the only exception- to be spared from original sin.

Here is the problem with this. If God just spared Mary from original sin, what was the need? Why would there be a need to?  You talked about Noah building the ark with imperfect wood. I have news for you HE DID. That wood was after the curse and by definition was not perfect. Noah also was not perfect.  God uses imperfect vessels to bring about his glory all the time.

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 BECKY -  Right, but then there is the problem that nowhere in the Bible says Mary was a sinner – you have to deduct it from verses such as “all have sinned… fall short from God’s grace”.  But it is a general rule.  And the Bible says general rules sometimes have exceptions.  As the case of Esther.  She had grace, as she was the queen.  And she pleased him.  And she was “highly favored” such as to become the exception of the rule which was applicable to everybody.   A king can change even the sternest of rules.  So much so the King of Kings highly favored Mary excepting her from the original sin, to afford His Son the purest, immaculate womb for His incarnation.

So, God elected Mary among all women because God in his infinite power and wisdom so decided. Mary, as God’s elect to become the mother of God the Son, needed to be absolutely perfect.  She could not be tarnished by sin.   God bless.

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1 minute ago, voltape said:

 BECKY -  Right, but then there is the problem that nowhere in the Bible says Mary was a sinner – you have to deduct it from verses such as “all have sinned… fall short from God’s grace”.  But it is a general rule.  And the Bible says general rules sometimes have exceptions.  As the case of Esther.  She had grace, as she was the queen.  And she pleased him.  And she was “highly favored” such as to become the exception of the rule which was applicable to everybody.   A king can change even the sternest of rules.  So much so the King of Kings highly favored Mary excepting her from the original sin, to afford His Son the purest, immaculate womb for His incarnation.

So, God elected Mary among all women because God in his infinite power and wisdom so decided. Mary, as God’s elect to become the mother of God the Son, needed to be absolutely perfect.  She could not be tarnished by sin.   God bless.

Logical fallacy. You can't argue a negative. You say it must be so because the Bible doesn't say she sinned specifically? That makes no sense.  You have to show that the Bible says she was sinless since the Bible does say all humans have sinned.  The only exception is Christ.  

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You ask: "If God just spared Mary from original sin, what was the need?" - the need is obvious.  God incarnate required the absolutely very best.  As was the Ark of the Covenant or the holy vessels of the Temple - all has to be of the purest quality.     That story about Noah's ark is not applicable.  The ark was not for God to dwell in, but Noah and his family and the animals.  A reasonably confortable place would have done the job.

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7 minutes ago, voltape said:

As was the Ark of the Covenant or the holy vessels of the Temple - all has to be of the purest quality. 

Purest available. All would have been flawed to a degree after the curse so your argument is ridiculous. There is ZERO indication that Mary was without sin and every indication that she in fact had original sin.

 

You need to follow what the Bible says and not read into the text which is exactly what you are doing.

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20 hours ago, voltape said:

 BECKY -  Right, but then there is the problem that nowhere in the Bible says Mary was a sinner – you have to deduct it from verses such as “all have sinned… fall short from God’s grace”.  But it is a general rule.  And the Bible says general rules sometimes have exceptions.  As the case of Esther.  She had grace, as she was the queen.  And she pleased him.  And she was “highly favored” such as to become the exception of the rule which was applicable to everybody.   A king can change even the sternest of rules.  So much so the King of Kings highly favored Mary excepting her from the original sin, to afford His Son the purest, immaculate womb for His incarnation.

So, God elected Mary among all women because God in his infinite power and wisdom so decided. Mary, as God’s elect to become the mother of God the Son, needed to be absolutely perfect.  She could not be tarnished by sin.   God bless.

Several times in scripture we are warned by YHWH to neither add ro nor to subtract from the Holy Word of YHWH... so we either take you as a new revelation of another Begotten Son of YHWH or a Latter Day Prophet of the Most High Elohim.

 

But there are an endless number of issues in either case.  To begin with, your position disagrees with YHWH's, never changing, Holy Word and one great indicator is that you have issued your proclamation without a single Continuous, Textual Continent reference supporting your idea.

 

You have a tremendous issue to overcome in your attempts to interact with the small group of Ruah, Holy Spirit, led followers of Yashuah ha'Mashiah.  Those of us here, by and large, try our best to follow our LORD and in doing so, we study the Scriptures and through the guidance of Ruah.  We call YHWH. Yashuah ha'Mashiah, and Ruah, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and p0ossibly by other names, it is a simple matter of culture and and preference but we are united by the truth of the Scriptures.

 

All of us would like to see you, in your way, fit into the Heaven's Choir but without living by the Word, you will never be one of the Forgiven.  Please, commit your life to YHWH and learn the true meaning of joy.

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On 12/9/2018 at 6:30 PM, voltape said:

 BECKY -  Right, but then there is the problem that nowhere in the Bible says Mary was a sinner – you have to deduct it from verses such as “all have sinned… fall short from God’s grace”.  But it is a general rule.  And the Bible says general rules sometimes have exceptions.  As the case of Esther.  She had grace, as she was the queen.  And she pleased him.  And she was “highly favored” such as to become the exception of the rule which was applicable to everybody.   A king can change even the sternest of rules.  So much so the King of Kings highly favored Mary excepting her from the original sin, to afford His Son the purest, immaculate womb for His incarnation.

So, God elected Mary among all women because God in his infinite power and wisdom so decided. Mary, as God’s elect to become the mother of God the Son, needed to be absolutely perfect.  She could not be tarnished by sin.   God bless.

 

 There can be an exception or exceptions to a rule, but to build a major doctrine when this exception is not found in Scripture is really foolish. You mention Esther as an exception but she is clearly pointed out as one. The king married her and made her his most important queen. This is specifically pointed out to us. Your reference to her does not at all apply to Mary being sinless. Very far from it.

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1 hour ago, Mrs. Just mike said:

Give a verse that says Mary was sinless. If Mary was sinless than the other children she had with Joseph were half sinless? Your post has significant flaws.

 

 This will probably lead to another discussion in that RC's believe she did not have any other children. In fact, she forever remained a virgin.

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