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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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Wisdom'sFruit

I get why Protestants have a problem with Miriam(Mary) Mother of our Lord -as to how the RCC depicts her....

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But why are they soooo, opposed to true honest discussion concerning her? Do you feel your Protestant fathers really have it right? And if biblical proof against both RCC and Protestant stances concerning her were presented- would the doctrine of men be put aside for truth? Or, would scripture and prophecy be put aside for denominational doctrine? I am non-denominational. I do not believe Christianity can be confined behind the walls of denominations. I believe Christianity is a transcending doctrine and is an experience through history and is always hindered by the dragon or at least continuously opposed. I would like to have sincere discussion concerning Miriam, to get a clear understanding as to why, Protestants get so agitated when she is mentioned. I have experienced this with most Protestants and their many sects. I personally do not get it. I will also add.... I am NOT Catholic as seems to be the opinion of Protestants when someone brings up Miriam. So, if anyone is willing, I would like to present this as a topic of discussion. I ask that my findings be thoughtfully looked at, as I will do the same concerning others. I will use scripture to make points and as rebuttals, I ask those who engage in this discussion do the same and not resort to baseless insults and personal opinions as I have experienced elsewhere.I have confronted Catholics elsewhere as well, and lets just say they had NO, scriptural based doctrine as a rebuttal , just man's precepts.

 

This debate and dialogue is for personal growth and learning, shadow boxing in essence. This first post is more of an introduction as to what I would like to present. Based on responses to this...... I will then post my findings and scriptural backed dissertation. I am not looking to force my views on anyone here, that is why I am posting this so moderators and whomever it may concern can decide if this is the place for this. I'll check back. God Bless!

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Christ founded the Catholic Church in Matthew 16:18-18 "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." The Catholic Church is the church that Christ founded.

 

In the Magnificat, Luke 1:48 "for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;" this is what we are doing, Mary is truly blessed for she agreed to the incarnation. The Church venerates, not worships her in the terms of latvia, but hyper-dulia.

 

 

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But why are they soooo, opposed to true honest discussion concerning her? Do you feel your Protestant fathers really have it right? And if biblical proof against both RCC and Protestant stances concerning her were presented- would the doctrine of men be put aside for truth? Or, would scripture and prophecy be put aside for denominational doctrine? I am non-denominational. I do not believe Christianity can be confined behind the walls of denominations. I believe Christianity is a transcending doctrine and is an experience through history and is always hindered by the dragon or at least continuously opposed. I would like to have sincere discussion concerning Miriam, to get a clear understanding as to why, Protestants get so agitated when she is mentioned. I have experienced this with most Protestants and their many sects. I personally do not get it. I will also add.... I am NOT Catholic as seems to be the opinion of Protestants when someone brings up Miriam. So, if anyone is willing, I would like to present this as a topic of discussion. I ask that my findings be thoughtfully looked at, as I will do the same concerning others. I will use scripture to make points and as rebuttals, I ask those who engage in this discussion do the same and not resort to baseless insults and personal opinions as I have experienced elsewhere.I have confronted Catholics elsewhere as well, and lets just say they had NO, scriptural based doctrine as a rebuttal , just man's precepts.

 

This debate and dialogue is for personal growth and learning, shadow boxing in essence. This first post is more of an introduction as to what I would like to present. Based on responses to this...... I will then post my findings and scriptural backed dissertation. I am not looking to force my views on anyone here, that is why I am posting this so moderators and whomever it may concern can decide if this is the place for this. I'll check back. God Bless!

 

Mary was a human born by parents who were sinners by birth. Mary was a sinner in need of Salvation, just like you and me. Mary was not like Jesus. Jesus was God in a human body. We are no where in Scripture instructed to pray to her, worship her, or do more that greatly respect her for being the most favored woman on earth to carry Jesus in her womb and be his mother. She and Joseph were the very best parents God could find to raise Jesus Christ.

 

RCC does pray to Mary, worship her, and believe she had no other children. Mary and Joseph had other sons and daughters. Mary was not sinless. The RCC has so twisted Scripture. The RCC has taken tradition as being more Holy than Scripture. The Pope has said he is higher than Jesus Christ, which makes him a antiChrist now does it not? The RCC is as far as I am concerned comes as close to a cult as I can think of.

 

These are just a few things that I can start a dialogue with. Would you care to discuss some area further? I am glad you are interested and feel free to ask more questions if you wish.

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There is no denying that Mary is a person much to be admired. She showed great faith and trust in God, when visited by the angel, and great courage in being one of the few present at the foot of the cross. Indeed, there is no doubt that Mary was greatly blessed. I can't speak for others, but for myself, I don't mind her being recognized for all these things. However, I think that the whatever is claimed or taught of her needs to be supported by scripture, so please present your points and scripture references, I look forward to reading them.

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Depends what you mean, the only dissusions I've had about Mary were with Roman Catholics who present Mary as an idol who takes the due glory away from my Lord. False doctrines tend to get under my skin. Nearly every discussion about Mary, Christ is undermined.

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RCC does pray to Mary, worship her, and believe she had no other children

 

The fact that she is prayed to is a terrible sin.

 

 

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I believe with Elizabeth that she is the mother of My Lord. I have no trouble talking about her in the way that the bible does. Growing up in a Romanist household and attending their schools, no matter what they say they practice Mariolatry. One way you can recognize a Romanist household is by the statue of Mary in either the front or back yard or window. Rome is more the church of Mary than of Christ. That which we pray to and expect to receive from is our God.

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Yes Mary was a woman to be admired for her faith, but by her own admission she was a sinner in need of a Savior. When the early congregation gathered together Mary was one of the 120. That is all Scripture says of the matter. She was not held up as a model was given no special place or recognition, she was one of the 120 faithful followers of Christ and nothing more is said concerning her except she was the mother of the Lord.

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Mary was a human born by parents who were sinners by birth. Mary was a sinner in need of Salvation, just like you and me. Mary was not like Jesus. Jesus was God in a human body. We are no where in Scripture instructed to pray to her, worship her, or do more that greatly respect her for being the most favored woman on earth to carry Jesus in her womb and be his mother. She and Joseph were the very best parents God could find to raise Jesus Christ.

 

RCC does pray to Mary, worship her, and believe she had no other children. Mary and Joseph had other sons and daughters. Mary was not sinless. The RCC has so twisted Scripture. The RCC has taken tradition as being more Holy than Scripture. The Pope has said he is higher than Jesus Christ, which makes him a antiChrist now does it not? The RCC is as far as I am concerned comes as close to a cult as I can think of.

 

These are just a few things that I can start a dialogue with. Would you care to discuss some area further? I am glad you are interested and feel free to ask more questions if you wish.

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Here we see the prayers (plural)of the saints (plural)on earth being lifted up by the saints in heaven to God himself! Ultimately, our prayers through the saints reach God.

 

James 5:16 "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working." We pray to the saints and to Mary because they are truly righteous and pure, so we want them to pray for us!

 

Mary wasn't a sinner, we do not worship, but venerate her as she is indeed blessed, she did what no other human ever did, or will ever do again, bearing God in her womb. Please provide evidence that Mary had children with Joseph, as even Martin Luther was very adamant that Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ.

 

Your common passages to refute me probably are: Matthew 1:24-25 "When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus." The word 'until' implies that Mary had children after Jesus right? The funny thing here is that in 1Corinthians 15:25 "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." The word 'until' is also used, but does that mean that Christ will stop reigning after a period of time? No, because in Luke 1:33 it says: "and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."" So we must approach this Matthew 1:24-25 text the same way we approached 1Corinthians 15:25.

 

There is good evidence that Mary was sinless, in Luke 1:28 as one translation put it: "And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." She is full of grace!

 

In Genesis 3:15 as one translation put it: "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." Mary crushes the head of the serpent!

 

Jeremiah 31:22 "How long will you waver, O faithless daughter? For the Lord has created a new thing on the earth: a woman encircles a man."" Mary is said to be "the beginning of the new creation"

 

It wouldn't be right for the Son of God to reside in a human body that had sin, Mary must be pure! That's why God chose her and no one else!

 

Christ is too smart to leave His people with just His word, which can be misinterpreted and misunderstood, instead He gave us His Church: Matthew 18:15-17 ""If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Christ said tell it to the Church! Don't get your Bible out and start arguing, tell it to the Church!

 

The Pope can be traced back to St Peter who was instituted by Jesus Christ! Please provide me evidence that the Pope said that he was higher than Jesus Christ, if anything's a cult it's protestantism with it's 40,000 denominations with different beliefs to each other, all claiming to be of Christ.

 

Thank you for this dialogue, God bless and Merry Christmas...

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Mary was just the "sign, a virgin shall conceive..." Isa 7:14

 

This only makes Mary the Mother of Jesus in the flesh, to fulfill Jesus being born of David and Abraham, even the record of His geneology back to Judah, Abraham, clear back to Adam.

 

His FLESH birth from Mary was as reflected here...

 

Luk_3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God....

 

Rom 1;3 shows this "Flesh" descendency through Mary...

 

(Rom 1:3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

Mary was "Blessed" to play this important role of course, but nothing compared to THIS...

 

(Rom 1:4) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

 

Now Mary isn't mentioned here in either case, because the important person in verse 3, is DAVID.

 

And in verse 4, we see that Jesus is the "Son of God" by Resurrection from the Dead.

 

Mary certainly has nothing to do with Jesus as being the "Son of God" according to scriptures, but it is His Resurrection from the Dead which takes all our attention from WHERE He was Born.

 

In fact, Jesus was so intent on getting people's attention away from His fleshly mother to His TRUE Mother, that He said this;

 

(Mar 3:33) And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

(Mar 3:34) And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

(Mar 3:35) For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

 

So with a little Bible study, we see that Jesus' TRUE Mother are those who do the Will of God.

 

Jesus was showing that His Mother Mary was not to be recognized as anything special;

 

(Joh 2:3) And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

(Joh 2:4) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

 

And again, further removing the "flesh" mother connection away from Himself, in John 19:26 He finally completely transfers all "mother/son" relationship with Mary, onto His half brother John.

 

Then in the epistles, we begin to recognize this "Mother" as the same exact "Mother" that was prophecied to Come, who we find described as this;

 

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Rev 12:1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

(Rev 12:2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

 

This is a continuation of the Abrahamic Covenant unfolding... the part that Sarah played out, Abraham's wife, demonstrating the Israel Wife of God bringing forth that SON someday far in the future from then, as represented by her being barren for so long, and then having that Son in her old age. (Israel nearly 4000 years barren, until Christ) by which then the Mother would be saved in the child bearing (1 Tim 2;15, Gen 3;15)

 

When a person relies on a man's teaching or church history for enlightenment, guidance and worship; there will be chaos confusion and death.

Who knows what imaginations can then creep into the mix, until ending up with an entirely foreign "gospel" that is no Gospel.

 

That is what catholicism is.

 

So I recommend throwing out all men's publications, pamphlets, books, sermons, commentaries and idols ...

 

And opening one's Bible to let God Speak.

 

His voice is clear and perfect, able to divide the marrow from the bone. You will then SEE what God is saying. And you will be dismayed at first because you will know it is not what you've been listening to and repeating to others....

 

But if you keep reading, you will become full of knowledge wisdom and understanding , coming into Spiritual Revelations, leaving behind all the catholic carnal ideas. He will then visit upon and into you His Holy Spirit if you pray for Him to Come. You will then be given to know and understand all things and you will be full of Joy and Peace in Christ as you haven't even begun to imagine.

 

Peace and Love in Christ

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Mary wasn't a sinner, we do not worship, but venerate her as she is indeed blessed, she did what no other human ever did, or will ever do again, bearing God in her womb. Please provide evidence that Mary had children with Joseph, as even Martin Luther was very adamant that Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ.

 

And when Jesus had finished these parables, he went away from there,and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

Matthew 13:53-56 ESV

 

Jesus had four brothers and at least two sisters. The fact that Martin Luther believed that Mary was always a virgin only proves that he retained some of the teaching he had received from the Church.

 

Christ said tell it to the Church! Don't get your Bible out and start arguing, tell it to the Church!

But which church was he talking about? There are a lot of churches mentioned in the Bible. In 1 Corinthians Paul told the Corinthians to expel a member who was living in sin. In this case Christ was referring to the local congregation the sinning brother was a member of.

 

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Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Here we see the prayers (plural)of the saints (plural)on earth being lifted up by the saints in heaven to God himself! Ultimately, our prayers through the saints reach God.

 

James 5:16 "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working." We pray to the saints and to Mary because they are truly righteous and pure, so we want them to pray for us!

 

Mary wasn't a sinner, we do not worship, but venerate her as she is indeed blessed, she did what no other human ever did, or will ever do again, bearing God in her womb. Please provide evidence that Mary had children with Joseph, as even Martin Luther was very adamant that Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ.

 

Your common passages to refute me probably are: Matthew 1:24-25 "When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus." The word 'until' implies that Mary had children after Jesus right? The funny thing here is that in 1Corinthians 15:25 "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." The word 'until' is also used, but does that mean that Christ will stop reigning after a period of time? No, because in Luke 1:33 it says: "and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."" So we must approach this Matthew 1:24-25 text the same way we approached 1Corinthians 15:25.

 

There is good evidence that Mary was sinless, in Luke 1:28 as one translation put it: "And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." She is full of grace!

 

In Genesis 3:15 as one translation put it: "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." Mary crushes the head of the serpent!

 

Jeremiah 31:22 "How long will you waver, O faithless daughter? For the Lord has created a new thing on the earth: a woman encircles a man."" Mary is said to be "the beginning of the new creation"

 

It wouldn't be right for the Son of God to reside in a human body that had sin, Mary must be pure! That's why God chose her and no one else!

 

Christ is too smart to leave His people with just His word, which can be misinterpreted and misunderstood, instead He gave us His Church: Matthew 18:15-17 ""If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Christ said tell it to the Church! Don't get your Bible out and start arguing, tell it to the Church!

 

The Pope can be traced back to St Peter who was instituted by Jesus Christ! Please provide me evidence that the Pope said that he was higher than Jesus Christ, if anything's a cult it's protestantism with it's 40,000 denominations with different beliefs to each other, all claiming to be of Christ.

 

Thank you for this dialogue, God bless and Merry Christmas...

 

What you stare is why we as Protestants are separate from the RCC. Tell me where in Scripture it says to pray to anyone other that Jesus Christ? No where can you find that Mary was not a human in need of Salvation in Jesus Christ. She was fully human or Jesus would not have been the God Man. Joseph and Mary had other children as the Bible says we are conceived in sin.

 

Mary and Joseph did have other Children in the New Jerusalem Bible Matthew 12:47 and in John 7:5 it clearly says not even his brothers believed in Him. I am concerned that the RCC does not encourage people to read for your self the Scriptures.As you stated in Matthew 1: 24-25 that Joseph did not have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born. These two humans were just as human as we are today. Sex back then allowed for babies to come at anytime, Mary and Joseph did have other children. James was the half brother of Jesus, Jude was the half brother of Jesus.

 

Jesus was the one to crush the head of the serpent, not Mary. "Satan's repeated attempts to defeat Christ during His life on Earth "He shall bruise you on the head" forshadows Satan's defeat when Christ rose from the dead. A bruised on the heal is not deadly, but a crushing blow to the head is." NASB Life Application Bible

 

Mary was the the best woman that God planned to bare Jesus Christ. Mary had to be fully human or Jesus would not have been fully God and Fully human.Philippians 2:6-8 Jesus emptied Himself taking on the form of of a bond servant. he had the appearance as a man. Jesus had to be both fully man and God to prove He was the perfect Blood Sacrifice, the final payment for the sins of those who would believe in Him. God demanded a perfect Lamb for the sacrifice of sins in the Old Covenant. Jesus Blood shed on the cross was the propitiation for our sins.. This in other words means Jesus was our" atonement, a sacrifice that satisfies Gods demand of judgement for sin. Christ has provided this once for all time by His death on the cross and His blood." Life Application Bible page 2488.

 

Peter was the little pebble, Jesus is the ROCK and upon Him is the Church (body of those who make Jesus LORD. The Pope has been in a position to twist Scriptures, Indulgences, Purgatory, Tradition is Higher than Scripture. Recently the Pope said he was higher than Jesus Christ and that he controls those going to heaven. The Pope is a human as you and I. No where in Scripture does it say you must go to a Priest to confess your sins. There is only one mediator 1 Timothy 2:5. Jesus is the new mediator Hebrews 12:24

 

If anything sounds like I am being gruff, or angry, that is not my intention. I am deeply concerned that I am respectful and kind, so please that everything in that way. I too wish you a happy Christmas.

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Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Here we see the prayers (plural)of the saints (plural)on earth being lifted up by the saints in heaven to God himself! Ultimately, our prayers through the saints reach God.

James 5:16 "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working." We pray to the saints and to Mary because they are truly righteous and pure, so we want them to pray for us!

Mary wasn't a sinner, we do not worship, but venerate her as she is indeed blessed, she did what no other human ever did, or will ever do again, bearing God in her womb. Please provide evidence that Mary had children with Joseph, as even Martin Luther was very adamant that Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ.

Your common passages to refute me probably are: Matthew 1:24-25 "When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus." The word 'until' implies that Mary had children after Jesus right? The funny thing here is that in 1Corinthians 15:25 "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." The word 'until' is also used, but does that mean that Christ will stop reigning after a period of time? No, because in Luke 1:33 it says: "and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."" So we must approach this Matthew 1:24-25 text the same way we approached 1Corinthians 15:25.

There is good evidence that Mary was sinless, in Luke 1:28 as one translation put it: "And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." She is full of grace!

In Genesis 3:15 as one translation put it: "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." Mary crushes the head of the serpent!

Jeremiah 31:22 "How long will you waver, O faithless daughter? For the Lord has created a new thing on the earth: a woman encircles a man."" Mary is said to be "the beginning of the new creation"

It wouldn't be right for the Son of God to reside in a human body that had sin, Mary must be pure! That's why God chose her and no one else!

Christ is too smart to leave His people with just His word, which can be misinterpreted and misunderstood, instead He gave us His Church: Matthew 18:15-17 ""If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Christ said tell it to the Church! Don't get your Bible out and start arguing, tell it to the Church!

The Pope can be traced back to St Peter who was instituted by Jesus Christ! Please provide me evidence that the Pope said that he was higher than Jesus Christ, if anything's a cult it's protestantism with it's 40,000 denominations with different beliefs to each other, all claiming to be of Christ.

Thank you for this dialogue, God bless and Merry Christmas...

 

We are the saints.

 

Confessing sin and praying for one another to God.

 

If Mary wasn't a sinner, then why did she need a Savior? Luke 1:47.

Being full of grace doesn't mean sinless.

Christ was fully man and fully God, his humanity was the same as ours so when he took our punishment on the cross he took the punishment that all humans inevitably devsere, he lived sinless life in the body of a sinner.

 

Why would Christ word and the supposed church that he left us say different things? The spiritual things of Scripture are discerned by the spiritually enlightened, God's elect.

 

​​​​​​​Do you know what a cult is? Why would a cult have different beliefs among it's followers? People bowing down to a Pope, giving him authority as if he was God is a cult.

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We are the saints.

 

Confessing sin and praying for one another to God.

 

If Mary wasn't a sinner, then why did she need a Savior? Luke 1:47.

Being full of grace doesn't mean sinless.

Christ was fully man and fully God, his humanity was the same as ours so when he took our punishment on the cross he took the punishment that all humans inevitably devsere, he lived sinless life in the body of a sinner.

 

Why would Christ word and the supposed church that he left us say different things? The spiritual things of Scripture are discerned by the spiritually enlightened, God's elect.

 

​​​​​​​Do you know what a cult is? Why would a cult have different beliefs among it's followers? People bowing down to a Pope, giving him authority as if he was God is a cult.

There are saints in heaven as well as on earth. When we pray to the saints in heaven, they lift up our prayers to God.

 

In Luke 1:47, the Catholic Church agrees that Mary did indeed need a saviour, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she had sin. In Jude 1:24 it says: "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy," we see here that God can KEEP you from stumbling and falling into sin. This is what He did to Mary, she needed a saviour not because she sinned, but so that she doesn't sin anymore.

 

Why won't you trust the only church that can be traced back to 33 A.D? You trust the other churches that came 1500 years later, founded by men. As a matter of history, that is where Protestantism came from: disobedience. All sins derive from disobedience, when Lucifer refused to serve, he was punished. Martin Luther was disobedient to the Catholic Church, introducing crazy doctrines, that no one had ever heard of before.

 

You say that scripture is discerned by the "spiritually enlightened" (sounds like Buddhism) who are these people? And how come there are thousands of different churches in Protestantism with different opinions? How can they interpret scripture?

 

Protestantism can be called a cult, as it takes the original form of Christianity (Catholicism) and twists major key doctrines while still calling itself Christianity.

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And when Jesus had finished these parables, he went away from there,and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

Matthew 13:53-56 ESV

 

Jesus had four brothers and at least two sisters. The fact that Martin Luther believed that Mary was always a virgin only proves that he retained some of the teaching he had received from the Church.

 

 

But which church was he talking about? There are a lot of churches mentioned in the Bible. In 1 Corinthians Paul told the Corinthians to expel a member who was living in sin. In this case Christ was referring to the local congregation the sinning brother was a member of.

The word that we see in the New Testament rendered brother is "αδελφός" which can mean literal brother but can also mean relative. This is the way it is used in the Septuagint, for example, Lot and Abram are described as "αδελφός" even though they had an uncle-nephew relationship. In John 19:25, there was another Mary which was Mary's supposed sister. It would be very unusual in one family to have two daughters with the same name. We can assume that the two Mary's were relatives or unrelated. We should approach the supposed brothers and sisters of the Lord in this way.

 

Paul was talking about the Catholic Church, there was only one church at the time, all the churches which were Christian were Catholic because they had the same doctrines and beliefs.

 

God bless and Merry Christmas...

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There are saints in heaven as well as on earth. When we pray to the saints in heaven, they lift up our prayers to God.

 

In Luke 1:47, the Catholic Church agrees that Mary did indeed need a saviour, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she had sin. In Jude 1:24 it says: "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy," we see here that God can KEEP you from stumbling and falling into sin. This is what He did to Mary, she needed a saviour not because she sinned, but so that she doesn't sin anymore.

 

Why won't you trust the only church that can be traced back to 33 A.D? You trust the other churches that came 1500 years later, founded by men. As a matter of history, that is where Protestantism came from: disobedience. All sins derive from disobedience, when Lucifer refused to serve, he was punished. Martin Luther was disobedient to the Catholic Church, introducing crazy doctrines, that no one had ever heard of before.

 

You say that scripture is discerned by the "spiritually enlightened" (sounds like Buddhism) who are these people? And how come there are thousands of different churches in Protestantism with different opinions? How can they interpret scripture?

 

Protestantism can be called a cult, as it takes the original form of Christianity (Catholicism) and twists major key doctrines while still calling itself Christianity.

 

It makes no difference if the saints are in Heaven or on earth, communicating with the dead is forbidden by God.

 

Scripture tells us that all have sinned, no where is Mary excluded.

 

I trust the Presbyterian church whose head is Christ and is founded on his word. Protantism is only dissobidiance to a self proclaimed authority. And it false that Luther introduced any doctrines, those before him either recanted or were executed. Sola scripura can be seen in the writings of Iraneius in Against all Heresies.

 

​​​​​How can the fleshly minded understand spiritual things? That's why Christ spoke in parables. Mark 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive;

​​​​and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins be forgiven them.

John 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not my of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

And 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which means wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural recceiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

​​​​​​​It makes no difference how many Protestant denominations there are since no one is claiming all of them are correct. There are reasonable and acceptable differences between denominations, but they unite by one true Gospel, those that don't are apostates.

​​​​​​

​​​​​Real believers in Christ go by his words, not someone else's. Cults have leaders, like the Pope.

Edited by Innerfire89

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What you stare is why we as Protestants are separate from the RCC. Tell me where in Scripture it says to pray to anyone other that Jesus Christ? No where can you find that Mary was not a human in need of Salvation in Jesus Christ. She was fully human or Jesus would not have been the God Man. Joseph and Mary had other children as the Bible says we are conceived in sin.

 

Mary and Joseph did have other Children in the New Jerusalem Bible Matthew 12:47 and in John 7:5 it clearly says not even his brothers believed in Him. I am concerned that the RCC does not encourage people to read for your self the Scriptures.As you stated in Matthew 1: 24-25 that Joseph did not have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born. These two humans were just as human as we are today. Sex back then allowed for babies to come at anytime, Mary and Joseph did have other children. James was the half brother of Jesus, Jude was the half brother of Jesus.

 

Jesus was the one to crush the head of the serpent, not Mary. "Satan's repeated attempts to defeat Christ during His life on Earth "He shall bruise you on the head" forshadows Satan's defeat when Christ rose from the dead. A bruised on the heal is not deadly, but a crushing blow to the head is." NASB Life Application Bible

 

Mary was the the best woman that God planned to bare Jesus Christ. Mary had to be fully human or Jesus would not have been fully God and Fully human.Philippians 2:6-8 Jesus emptied Himself taking on the form of of a bond servant. he had the appearance as a man. Jesus had to be both fully man and God to prove He was the perfect Blood Sacrifice, the final payment for the sins of those who would believe in Him. God demanded a perfect Lamb for the sacrifice of sins in the Old Covenant. Jesus Blood shed on the cross was the propitiation for our sins.. This in other words means Jesus was our" atonement, a sacrifice that satisfies Gods demand of judgement for sin. Christ has provided this once for all time by His death on the cross and His blood." Life Application Bible page 2488.

 

Peter was the little pebble, Jesus is the ROCK and upon Him is the Church (body of those who make Jesus LORD. The Pope has been in a position to twist Scriptures, Indulgences, Purgatory, Tradition is Higher than Scripture. Recently the Pope said he was higher than Jesus Christ and that he controls those going to heaven. The Pope is a human as you and I. No where in Scripture does it say you must go to a Priest to confess your sins. There is only one mediator 1 Timothy 2:5. Jesus is the new mediator Hebrews 12:24

 

If anything sounds like I am being gruff, or angry, that is not my intention. I am deeply concerned that I am respectful and kind, so please that everything in that way. I too wish you a happy Christmas.

No you are not being gruff or angry, but thanks anyways.

 

I believe i have touched upon your first two paragraphs so I will skip to your third. Most of the time, Jesus is described as a male not a female but even if Christ is the one to crush the head of the serpent, it doesn't matter as you can come to Christ through Mary and they both are full of grace.

 

If Peter was just a pebble, then why did Christ found His Church on him? The Church is a physical body as in Matthew 18:15-17, we should tell the Church if we have a disagreement and everyone should listen.

 

You better believe in Purgatory because you either have to be completely without stain and go to heaven, or the slightest stain and you go to hell. We get Purgatory from numerous places, one place is 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 "For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." This text proves a couple of things, one is that we need grace through faith with works to be saved and the other is that if the work fails, you will suffer loss, but you would be saved only by going through fire. The fire of Purgatory purifies the soul of impurites and ultimately, the soul is saved, like jumping through a burning house.

 

The Pope is a human, a human with the authority of God given through Peter.

 

John 20:21-23 "Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld." Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins!

 

We agree that Christ is the mediator between God and man, but you are trying to evangelize me now, would you not say that God the Father is using you as a mediator for His grace to reach me?

 

Thank you again and God bless, Merry Christmas...

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It makes no difference if the saints are in Heaven or on earth, communicating with the dead is forbidden by God.

 

Scripture tells us that all have sinned, no where is Mary excluded.

 

I trust the Presbyterian church whose head is Christ and is founded on his word. Protantism is only dissobidiance to a self proclaimed authority. And it false that Luther introduced any doctrines, those before him either recanted or were executed. Sola sriptura

​​​​

Please provide evidence for your claims that people believed in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidei before Martin Luther, I can't find any.

 

I have clearly stated bible verses where the saints in heaven lift up our prayers to God, as I have stated elsewhere, ignorance of the Bible is ignorance of Christ.

 

Sorry but I just find it a bit unusual for the Son of God to dwell in who you say to be a sinner. God can't stay in a sinner, it is against His nature. For if He stayed in a sinner, He would still have something to blame for attachments to sin from Mary. Christ as we know is sinless, any Christian agrees on that.

 

How can you trust a church that has its ties in the reformation 16 centuries after Christ? Where was the Presbyterian church for 16 centuries?

 

Sorry if I sound mean or offend you, that is not my intention, but thank you for this dialogue.

 

God bless and Merry Christmas...

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Please provide evidence for your claims that people believed in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidei before Martin Luther, I can't find any.

 

I have clearly stated bible verses where the saints in heaven lift up our prayers to God, as I have stated elsewhere, ignorance of the Bible is ignorance of Christ.

 

Sorry but I just find it a bit unusual for the Son of God to dwell in who you say to be a sinner. God can't stay in a sinner, it is against His nature. For if He stayed in a sinner, He would still have something to blame for attachments to sin from Mary. Christ as we know is sinless, any Christian agrees on that.

 

How can you trust a church that has its ties in the reformation 16 centuries after Christ? Where was the Presbyterian church for 16 centuries?

 

Sorry if I sound mean or offend you, that is not my intention, but thank you for this dialogue.

 

God bless and Merry Christmas...

 

You'll have read my last comments again, it's was posted before it was finished.

 

You verse you gave has nothing to do with praying to or though anyone else.

 

Doesn't the Holy Spirit live inside all believers as Scripture says? Christ was fully human and fully God, he did what we could not do in the same flesh as us.

 

I trust the Presbyterian church because they back up their doctrines with Scripture which transcends the Roman Catholic church. There's always been Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostals, ect.. ect.. for as long as there has been Scripture to form beliefs from. Being established a long time ago isn't the basis of weather or not a group of believers are in error or not.

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And Mary Christmas. I'm sure I came across as a jerk a few times, sorry about that.

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Fidelis ad Mortem said:
Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Here we see the prayers (plural)of the saints (plural)on earth being lifted up by the saints in heaven to God himself! Ultimately, our prayers through the saints reach God.

 

James 5:16 "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working." We pray to the saints and to Mary because they are truly righteous and pure, so we want them to pray for us!

 

Mary wasn't a sinner, we do not worship, but venerate her

 

A. Revelation 5:8

1. Nothing states that the 28 (4 living creatures and 24 elders) fully know the hearts that these prayers sprang forth from. Many prayers can be silent. If they knew these silent prayers from the hearts when they were being prayed they would be omniscient in equality with God.

2. Nothing states that those on earth communicated with the 28.

 

B. James 5:16

1. James is writing to people to confess their sins to other people who are still alive on earth.

 

C. By praying to Mary she is being worshiped. This is a terrible sin. Pray is to only be to God. When Roman Catholics and others pray to her they do so thinking that she can hear all their prayers (even the silent ones) from their hearts. This requires omniscience.

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/5196-kardiognōstēs-does-it-mean-omniscient/

 

 

...and only God is omniscient.

 

 

Since there are several people and several topics going on what would you think of debating this very important topic in the one on one section?

The title can simply be: Is it proper to pray to Mary and the other saints in heaven?

 

What do you think?

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When we pray to the saints in heaven, they lift up our prayers to God.

Can you find any place in the Bible that commands or allows us to pray to the saints in Heaven?

 

Why won't you trust the only church that can be traced back to 33 A.D?

The only church founded in that year was the one in Jerusalem. Other churches were founded as Christians preached the gospel in other parts of the world. The church in Rome only became dominant over the others because of the political power of the Roman Empire.

 

We get Purgatory from numerous places, one place is 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 "For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." This text proves a couple of things, one is that we need grace through faith with works to be saved and the other is that if the work fails, you will suffer loss, but you would be saved only by going through fire.

It is our works that go through the fire. Our salvation is assured; this is a test to determine what reward we will receive for what we have done after salvation.

 

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8-10

 

 

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Depends what you mean, the only dissusions I've had about Mary were with Roman Catholics who present Mary as an idol who takes the due glory away from my Lord. False doctrines tend to get under my skin. Nearly every discussion about Mary, Christ is undermined.

 

It all pinges on how people see Mary, how deep they look at scripture.

 

Protestants and Catholics see Mary very differently.

 

To understand why Catholics venerate Mary the way they do.

 

A Catholic sees Mary as The Ark of The New Covenant. Refer Revelation.

 

When you see Catholics carrying an effigy of Mary like the Israelites carried The Ark you can understand the centrality of the Arks in worship.

 

People could be forgiven for thinking that the Israelites worshipped the Ark, such incredible veneration they gave it, it was the Holiest object in their faith.

 

When God first manifested in the Ark and dwelt with the Israelites, The Shekinah Glory " overshadowed " the Ark.

When the Incarnation took place The Holy Spirit " overshadowed " Mary. God dwelt in Mary.

 

The Arks are the portles between this world and the Eternal realm.

 

The Israelites prayed to God through the Ark and received massive blessings. Honouring the Ark honoured God.

 

Catholics see Mary as Spouse of The Holy Spirit. It was Her complete unity with The Holy Spirit that the Incarnation of Jesus took place. Like the Ark it is generally deadly to mishandle Mary, to blaspheme her is to do the same to The Holy Spirit. She is the Spouse of The Holy Spirit. Attack one, attack the other.

Catholics have seen the Incarnation as Holy ground for 2000 years, and for us it sacred territory.

 

In the Davidic line it was the King's mother that became Queen. Christ is King of Kings, so Catholics see Mary as Queen.

 

So Protestants may just see a ordinary poor jewess peasant, but a Catholic sees that the Almighty has done great things for her, as Mary states in scripture.

 

Hope that clears things up.

 

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It all pinges on how people see Mary, how deep they look at scripture.

 

Protestants and Catholics see Mary very differently.

 

To understand why Catholics venerate Mary the way they do.

 

A Catholic sees Mary as The Ark of The New Covenant. Rev

 

When you see Catholics carrying an effigy of Mary like the Israelites carried The Ark you can understand the centrality of the Arks in worship.

 

People could be forgiven for thinking that the Israelites worshipped the Ark, such incredible veneration they gave it, it was the Holiest object in their faith.

 

When God first manifested in the Ark and dwelt with the Israelites, The Shekinah Glory " overshadowed " the Ark.

When the Incarnation took place The Holy Spirit " overshadowed " Mary. God dwelt in Mary.

 

The Arks are the portles between this world and the Eternal realm.

 

Catholics see Mary as Spouse of The Holy Spirit. It was Her complete unity with The Holy Spirit that the Incarnation of Jesus took place. Like the Ark it is generally deadly to mishandle Mary, to blaspheme her is to do the same to The Holy Spirit. She is the Spouse of The Holy Spirit. Attack one, attack the other.

Catholics have seen the Incarnation as Holy ground for 2000 years, and for us it sacred territory.

 

In the Davidic line it was the King's mother that became Queen. Christ is King of Kings, so Catholics see Mary as Queen.

 

So Protestants may just see a ordinary poor jewess peasant, but a Catholic sees that the Almighty has done great things for her, as Mary states in scripture.

 

Hope that clears things up.

 

 

 

I have to ask you a question. Are you here to learn from people here on this Protestant Forum or to attempt to change someones mind here.

 

You come across as a well educated in Catholic Dogma, perhaps you are in the Catholic clergy? It seems to me we can banter back and forth and go no where especially with you so solidly connected to the RCC. So what are you intentions or desires. Please don't say you are trying to learn as your posts clearly show you a not interested in truly seeking to learn Protestant Theology but defend the RCC Theology. I just wish I more fully understood what you are looking for, and so at least I could understand who and what you are looking for, Alsor so perhaps someone could be more direct in helping your quest.

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I have to ask you a question. Are you here to learn from people here on this Protestant Forum or to attempt to change someones mind here.

 

You come across as a well educated in Catholic Dogma, perhaps you are in the Catholic clergy? It seems to me we can banter back and forth and go no where especially with you so solidly connected to the RCC. So what are you intentions or desires. Please don't say you are trying to learn as your posts clearly show you a not interested in truly seeking to learn Protestant Theology but defend the RCC Theology. I just wish I more fully understood what you are looking for, and so at least I could understand who and what you are looking for, Alsor so perhaps someone could be more direct in helping your quest.

 

I'm not clergy, I'm a gardener from Western Australia. I don't know all of Protestant theology, that would be impossible. But I have learned a lot from many different Protestant sites, Mennonites, baptists and too many to mention, its been simulating to talk to them.

Do you know any other sites with more theological discussion happening and have a open to diverse opinion policy. The William Lane Craig forum is great, but it has become a sleepy monoculture of a site in some ways. If some sites were more like the Baptist site out of Cedar Rapids I visited a few years ago, I would be wrapped, we covered huge areas of philosophy and theology, and everything else. I made many friends there, but the site shut down unfortunately.

 

As to changing someone's mind I don't think I can. I'm gardener not a theologian or something. I can give Catholic perspective on a subject but it's not authoritative or anything.

 

 

 

 

 

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