Jump to content

The Christian Protestant Community Forums

Sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community forums. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Community Fellowship

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
truth3

Protestant Forum

Recommended Posts

Isn't it about telling the truth? Let the evidence stand? By the way, this topic was not started by me.

Edited by ConfessionalLutheran
This is a Protestant Christian forum and will be regulated as such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Isn't it about telling the truth? Let the evidence stand?

 

It is about telling the truth. The truth is that here we discuss things from a Protestant point of view. We've had in the space of three days three people of decidedly non Protestant inclinations come here and try to proselytize. I'm a moderator at the pleasure of the owner of this forum, @William . This is a safe space for Protestants of any persuasion to come and discuss matters of faith, or if one is curious about Protestantism, to ask and discuss in good faith. Now, if you wish to discuss Lutheranism, I can give you some decent links. If you want to discuss Presbyterianism, I know that William can help you. @Sue D. is someone you can go to if you want to learn about the Baptist faith and message and @atpollard can very likely give you some pointers regarding Pentecostal belief.

 

We are all part of the same family that grew out of the early Christian Church and you can see that by our common belief in the 5 Solae: Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Dei Gloria. Jesus Christ is the beginning and end of our Faith. We do honor the BVM as the woman God chose out of His Grace to bear His Son, but the only Mediator we have between ourselves and God the Father is God the Son. Now for those links:

 

http://steadfastlutherans.org/confes...n-confessions/

 

http://steadfastlutherans.org/2014/0...onal-Lutheran/

 

https://lutheranreformation.org/theo...-of-scripture/

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heh, @William has commented that I first arrived here as a bull in a china shop. I was ready and willing to argue with anyone about anything. (I am reported to have mellowed). There is actually a simple explanation for that. Without naming sites, this is the third Christian Forum that I visited. The first forum that I was active in I found the Jehovah's Witnesses to be the most "orthodox" Christian posters. The vast majority either belonged to some cult like some lady who is the reincarnated Christ (I think that's what they claimed) or they just made it all up for themselves. "Well I believe ..." seemed to be the argument settler for any discussion. That left me 'discussing' the word "THE" in John 1 and whether Jesus was God. I eventually concluded that as far as that site was concerned, I was the last Christian on the internet and I was tired of arguing with kooks about what God revealed to them personally (contrary to the Holy Bible and the teaching of Jesus).

 

I discovered another Christian site where EVERY discussion, whatever the stated topic, quickly became a discussion on either "Calvinism teaches that God is a monster who enjoys creating people to send to Hell" or "Once Saved Always Saved vs Salvation Can Be Lost". The debate style was agressive and one quickly learned to hold their own. Unfortunately, scripture pong and retreading the same old arguments with the same players over and over at every topic quickly grows boring.

 

Then I found ChristForums.org and it was different. It took me a while to realize that the rules had changed. I was not defending the deity of Christ with JWs or trying to explain what Calvinism (Reformed Theology and the Bible) actually teach. At first, I was uncomfortable with the speed with which anyone who disagrees with the Nicene Creed was shown the door. I eventually realized that the reason that CF was different was because those who reject the Nicene Creed and wish to openly argue about it ARE shown the door.

 

CF is in the midst of an experiment at allowing greater diversity. I, for one, hope it yields dialogue. However, CF is a refuge for Protestants in general and Calvinists in particular. A place where we can talk without being shouted down by the same lies and misinformation thread-crapping on every topic. I hope, as a Catholic, you have questions to ask and thoughts to share (on what we have in common: Jesus Christ, the Holy Bible, living a life of Faith). I hope we can avoid ugly arguments on what we hold in difference (Papal Authority, Marian Veneration).

 

If I went to a Catholic Forum and attacked Catholicism, I would be expected to be shown to the door (because I was acting like a boor). If anyone comes here intent on attacking Reformed Protestant beliefs, they should expect the same reaction for exactly the same reason.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It is about telling the truth. The truth is that here we discuss things from a Protestant point of view. We've had in the space of three days three people of decidedly non Protestant inclinations come here and try to proselytize. I'm a moderator at the pleasure of the owner of this forum, @William . This is a safe space for Protestants of any persuasion to come and discuss matters of faith, or if one is curious about Protestantism, to ask and discuss in good faith. Now, if you wish to discuss Lutheranism, I can give you some decent links. If you want to discuss Presbyterianism, I know that William can help you. @Sue D. is someone you can go to if you want to learn about the Baptist faith and message and @atpollard can very likely give you some pointers regarding Pentecostal belief.

 

We are all part of the same family that grew out of the early Christian Church and you can see that by our common belief in the 5 Solae: Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Dei Gloria. Jesus Christ is the beginning and end of our Faith. We do honor the BVM as the woman God chose out of His Grace to bear His Son, but the only Mediator we have between ourselves and God the Father is God the Son. Now for those links:

 

http://steadfastlutherans.org/confes...n-confessions/

 

http://steadfastlutherans.org/2014/0...onal-Lutheran/

 

https://lutheranreformation.org/theo...-of-scripture/

 

But there is only one truth though, right?

 

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, One faith, One baptism.

 

As you stated in this post, you admit to the idea that there are variations of truth. The ideas of men, long after revelation ended, with the death of St. John. For instance, the man made religion of Lutheranism, was started by an apostatized catholic monk name Martin Luther in the year 1517. The man made religion of presbyterianism was started by John Knox [an ex-catholic] in the year 1560. The man made religion of a baptist, was started by John Smyth in the year 1605 in Amsterdam. And the Pentecostal movement began in the early 20th century by men. All this equates to disunity, not of being part of one family, which would imply unity.

 

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one:

 

Jeremias 10:23 I know, O Lord, that the way of a man is not his: neither is it in a man to walk, and to direct his steps.

 

There are well over 35000 protestant denominations, with distinct beliefs and traditions, one from another and without a hierarchy. Every man essentially is a king, over his own life. This has occurred many times in the old testament, one in particular is 1 Kings [1 Samuel 8]. And also the contradiction of Korah.

 

The bible clearly indicates that after the establishment of the church of Jesus Christ, as time went forward, concerning the Faith, things would not get better but would only get worse. But there would always be a faithful remnant. And this is my point, regarding Martin Luther, apostatizing from the catholic faith and starting his own man made church and from that time, all the other protestant churches grew from.

 

Luke 18:8 I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

 

Quote: "We do honor the BVM as the woman God chose out of His Grace to bear His Son, but the only Mediator we have between ourselves and God the Father is God the Son."

 

I agree, this is the catholic position also. >>> ^^^^^^^^^

 

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

 

But catholics believe that Mary has sway or intercessory privilege with the king, her son, Jesus Christ.

 

As just one example, this is clearly seen in the book of Esther.

 

Esther 5:3 And the king said to her: What wilt then, queen Esther? what is thy request? if thou shouldst even ask one half of the kingdom, it shall be given to thee.

 

And another one, is Bethsabee, the mother of Solomon.

 

Third Book Of Kings (1 Kings) 1:16 Bethsabee bowed herself, and worshipped the king. And the king said to her: What is thy will?

 

One more.

 

Judges 4:4-5 And there was at that time Debbora a prophetess the wife of Lapidoth, who judged the people, And she sat under a palm tree, which was called by her name, between Rama and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for all judgment.

 

As a parallel, Debbora, would be equivalent to the first lady of the President of the United States, this is what the term "prophetess" means. Lapidoth, was the judge, who judged the children of Israel and they came to her for intercession, pleading to the judge, on their behalf.

 

Mary, is the fulfillment of the old testament ark, the living ark of the new testament. This was foreshadowed in Jeremias.

 

Jeremias 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN.

 

Apocalypse 11:19, 12:1-2 And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But there is only one truth though, right?

 

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, One faith, One baptism.

 

As you stated in this post, you admit to the idea that there are variations of truth. The ideas of men, long after revelation ended, with the death of St. John. For instance, the man made religion of Lutheranism, was started by an apostatized catholic monk name Martin Luther in the year 1517. The man made religion of presbyterianism was started by John Knox [an ex-catholic] in the year 1560. The man made religion of a baptist, was started by John Smyth in the year 1605 in Amsterdam. And the Pentecostal movement began in the early 20th century by men. All this equates to disunity, not of being part of one family, which would imply unity.

 

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one:

 

Jeremias 10:23 I know, O Lord, that the way of a man is not his: neither is it in a man to walk, and to direct his steps.

 

There are well over 35000 protestant denominations, with distinct beliefs and traditions, one from another and without a hierarchy. Every man essentially is a king, over his own life. This has occurred many times in the old testament, one in particular is 1 Kings [1 Samuel 8]. And also the contradiction of Korah.

 

The bible clearly indicates that after the establishment of the church of Jesus Christ, as time went forward, concerning the Faith, things would not get better but would only get worse. But there would always be a faithful remnant. And this is my point, regarding Martin Luther, apostatizing from the catholic faith and starting his own man made church and from that time, all the other protestant churches grew from.

 

Luke 18:8 I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

 

Quote: "We do honor the BVM as the woman God chose out of His Grace to bear His Son, but the only Mediator we have between ourselves and God the Father is God the Son."

 

I agree, this is the catholic position also. >>> ^^^^^^^^^

 

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

 

But catholics believe that Mary has sway or intercessory privilege with the king, her son, Jesus Christ.

 

As just one example, this is clearly seen in the book of Esther.

 

Esther 5:3 And the king said to her: What wilt then, queen Esther? what is thy request? if thou shouldst even ask one half of the kingdom, it shall be given to thee.

 

And another one, is Bethsabee, the mother of Solomon.

 

Third Book Of Kings (1 Kings) 1:16 Bethsabee bowed herself, and worshipped the king. And the king said to her: What is thy will?

 

One more.

 

Judges 4:4-5 And there was at that time Debbora a prophetess the wife of Lapidoth, who judged the people, And she sat under a palm tree, which was called by her name, between Rama and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for all judgment.

 

As a parallel, Debbora, would be equivalent to the first lady of the President of the United States, this is what the term "prophetess" means. Lapidoth, was the judge, who judged the children of Israel and they came to her for intercession, pleading to the judge, on their behalf.

 

Mary, is the fulfillment of the old testament ark, the living ark of the new testament. This was foreshadowed in Jeremias.

 

Jeremias 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN.

 

Apocalypse 11:19, 12:1-2 And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.

 

 

 

I seriously question your motive for being here, Clearly you are attempting to stir up something besides harmony. Why not take your efforts to a Catholic forum? Like the Moderator has said you are pressing your points beyond what is acceptable. I wish your no wrong, but causing this desertion is unbiblical. And most certainly not Christian.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But there is only one truth though, right?

 

Answering a fool ...

Proverbs 26:4 NASB "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Or you will also be like him."

Proverbs 26:4 NKJV "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him."

 

... and the very next verse:

Proverbs 26:5 NASB "Answer a fool as his folly deserves, That he not be wise in his own eyes."

Proverbs 26:5 NKJV "Answer a fool according to his folly, ​​Lest he be wise in his own eyes."

 

 

Faith and Works ...

James 2:24 NASB "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

 

Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

 

While there is one Truth, it often takes some work to find and it often cannot be expressed in a single verse plucked from its context with the rest of scripture ignored. Some TRUTHs are part of the mystery of God's soverignty and beyond human understanding. That was the point God made at the end of the book of Job.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator

But there is only one truth though, right?

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, One faith, One baptism.

As you stated in this post, you admit to the idea that there are variations of truth. The ideas of men, long after revelation ended, with the death of St. John. For instance, the man made religion of Lutheranism, was started by an apostatized catholic monk name Martin Luther in the year 1517. The man made religion of presbyterianism was started by John Knox [an ex-catholic] in the year 1560. The man made religion of a baptist, was started by John Smyth in the year 1605 in Amsterdam. And the Pentecostal movement began in the early 20th century by men. All this equates to disunity, not of being part of one family, which would imply unity.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one:

Jeremias 10:23 I know, O Lord, that the way of a man is not his: neither is it in a man to walk, and to direct his steps.

There are well over 35000 protestant denominations, with distinct beliefs and traditions, one from another and without a hierarchy. Every man essentially is a king, over his own life. This has occurred many times in the old testament, one in particular is 1 Kings [1 Samuel 8]. And also the contradiction of Korah.

The bible clearly indicates that after the establishment of the church of Jesus Christ, as time went forward, concerning the Faith, things would not get better but would only get worse. But there would always be a faithful remnant. And this is my point, regarding Martin Luther, apostatizing from the catholic faith and starting his own man made church and from that time, all the other protestant churches grew from.

Luke 18:8 I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

Quote: "We do honor the BVM as the woman God chose out of His Grace to bear His Son, but the only Mediator we have between ourselves and God the Father is God the Son."

I agree, this is the catholic position also. >>> ^^^^^^^^^

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

But catholics believe that Mary has sway or intercessory privilege with the king, her son, Jesus Christ.

As just one example, this is clearly seen in the book of Esther.

Esther 5:3 And the king said to her: What wilt then, queen Esther? what is thy request? if thou shouldst even ask one half of the kingdom, it shall be given to thee.

And another one, is Bethsabee, the mother of Solomon.

Third Book Of Kings (1 Kings) 1:16 Bethsabee bowed herself, and worshipped the king. And the king said to her: What is thy will?

One more.

Judges 4:4-5 And there was at that time Debbora a prophetess the wife of Lapidoth, who judged the people, And she sat under a palm tree, which was called by her name, between Rama and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for all judgment.

As a parallel, Debbora, would be equivalent to the first lady of the President of the United States, this is what the term "prophetess" means. Lapidoth, was the judge, who judged the children of Israel and they came to her for intercession, pleading to the judge, on their behalf.

Mary, is the fulfillment of the old testament ark, the living ark of the new testament. This was foreshadowed in Jeremias.

Jeremias 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN.

Apocalypse 11:19, 12:1-2 And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.

There's room for dissagement, but not when it come to the Gospel, we have Christ and only Christ that grants us salvation, anything else is a false Gospel.

​​​​​​Theres no one who has sway with God's perfect plans, Christ himself tells us that any who obey his fathers commands are his brothers and mother.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's room for dissagement, but not when it come to the Gospel, we have Christ and only Christ that grants us salvation, anything else is a false Gospel.

​​​​​​Theres no one who has sway with God's perfect plans, Christ himself tells us that any who obey his fathers commands are his brothers and mother.

 

I sent a PM to @William . This is not a mission ground for Romanists. That much should be obvious in the title of the forum.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As you stated in this post, you admit to the idea that there are variations of truth. The ideas of men, long after revelation ended, with the death of St. John. For instance, the man made religion of Lutheranism, was started by an apostatized catholic monk name Martin Luther in the year 1517. The man made religion of presbyterianism was started by John Knox [an ex-catholic] in the year 1560. The man made religion of a baptist, was started by John Smyth in the year 1605 in Amsterdam. And the Pentecostal movement began in the early 20th century by men. All this equates to disunity, not of being part of one family, which would imply unity.

 

If the Roman Catholic Church would only have denounced its Pelegian heresy and returned to its Apostolic teachings rather than burning those who begged it to stop worshiping men and selling forgiveness for coin, The reformers like Luther and Knox would have had no need to choose between following Jesus Christ or following a series of corrupt Popes. The RCC may have cleaned up the worst of its secular papacies, but it still embraces the same anti-Apostolic and contra-biblical teachings, thus those who love God are still forced to choose between [Jesus Christ and his Apostolic teaching] and [an old, apostate Church of Rome].

 

The RCC is currently debating whether to elevate Mary to CO-friggin-REDEMPTRIX. Paul asked: Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? [ 1 Corinthians 1:13 ] and the RCC church answers ... No, but Mary was! She is CO-REDEMPTRIX ... equal in our salvation to God Incarnate. [begin sarcasm] Why would anyone whose sins were washed away by the Son of God at the Cross of Calvary have any problem with that? [end sarcasm]

 

They are NOT man-made religions.

Lutherans worship Jesus Christ and the Triune Godhead alone, not Martin Luther.

Presbyterians worship Jesus Christ and the Triune Godhead alone, not John Knox.

Baptists worship Jesus Christ and the Triune Godhead alone, not John Smyth.

Pentecostals worship Jesus Christ and the Triune Godhead alone, not any man (although we are especially fond of the Holy Spirit).

 

Can Roman Catholics stand and make the same claim?

From the outside looking in, you worship God and Mary and Saints and the Pope and Traditions and The Church ... then you slather slick oil all over it making it too slippery to really nail down an honest answer and call it 'veneration' or 'intercession'. If you are praying to it and it looks like worship and sounds like worship and does all the things that worship is supposed to do, then I say that you are worshiping it and lying to us and yourself.

 

In case I was not clear, there is no way that I will EVER trade the Jesus I know for faith in a priest offering prayers to his mother in the name of a Pope. I have met the real God and your name-calling is just "boorish" behavior. I expect that it will not be long tolerated by the Powers that Be, and YOU are the one creating a rift between Roman Catholics and Protestants. Your rhetoric is inflammatory and your 'facts' are historically inaccurate.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Answering a fool ...

Proverbs 26:4 NASB "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Or you will also be like him."

Proverbs 26:4 NKJV "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him."

 

... and the very next verse:

Proverbs 26:5 NASB "Answer a fool as his folly deserves, That he not be wise in his own eyes."

Proverbs 26:5 NKJV "Answer a fool according to his folly, ​​Lest he be wise in his own eyes."

 

 

Faith and Works ...

James 2:24 NASB "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

 

Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

 

While there is one Truth, it often takes some work to find and it often cannot be expressed in a single verse plucked from its context with the rest of scripture ignored. Some TRUTHs are part of the mystery of God's soverignty and beyond human understanding. That was the point God made at the end of the book of Job.

 

It was interesting that you cited Ephesians 2:8-10 in an attempt to refuted that works are not necessary. In charity and as you admit, you do not understand what St. Paul is saying. Look at the verses. St. Paul is talking about the free act of mercy and charity of God towards man, with the fullness of time, Jesus died on the Holy Cross, and established water baptism [john3:5]. Man, in the old testament could not merit heaven under the old law, it was a prototype of the new testament, it required a merciful act of God i.e. the death, resurrection of Jesus Christ and the establishment of His church and sacraments. And water baptism is the gateway to salvation. Look at the preceding verses below of Ephesians 2, to confirm that it was a merciful act on God's part, man had no part in it. Even Ephesians 2:8 says it was a gift from God.

 

Ephesians 2:4-5 [4] But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,)

 

But now having said that, look at Ephesians 8:10 we are created in Jesus Christ for good works, which God prepared so that we can walk in them i.e. doing good works. St. Paul to Titus says the same thing, regarding the free act of mercy on the part of God, man played no part in this act. And the subsequent verses do speak about having to do good works and that they are profitable to men.

 

Titus 3:4-8 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: [5] Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour: That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting. It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

 

The bible cannot contradict itself. And so, concerning works, St. Paul is talking about two distinct things i.e. first justification i.e. death and resurrection of Jesus Christ [blood] and water baptism and then the works thereafter, that are profitable, to the increase of faith.

 

1 John 5:6-8 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I sent a PM to @William . This is not a mission ground for Romanists. That much should be obvious in the title of the forum.

 

I am glad you did so. The Layter Day Saint has attacked my post, and said I should be banned. I addressed a person who lost his mother is mental illness and took her life. I gave Biblical advise and even told him to be a Follower of Jesus Christ, encase he was not a Christian. The Latter Day Saint attacked my post and got the man totally upset. This is not good. I am deeply sorry this is happening on a day you are alone. My prayer is with you.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It was interesting that you cited Ephesians 2:8-10 in an attempt to refuted that works are not necessary. In charity and as you admit, you do not understand what St. Paul is saying.

Just to clarify, for anyone else reading, I offered pairs of scripture verses that appear to say EXACTLY the opposite when taken in isolation and at face value.

 

Do not answer a fool and answer a fool.

Saved by works, saved not by works.

 

I then pointed out that TRUTH was not so easily grasped from a single scripture verse ... you need to view all scripture in its context to discover TRUTH.

 

I also offered that some TRUTH is not for man to know ... like why God chooses whom He chooses. Answers to these questions are always human speculation at best. Only God knows his own reasons.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It was interesting that you cited Ephesians 2:8-10 in an attempt to refuted that works are not necessary. In charity and as you admit, you do not understand what St. Paul is saying. Look at the verses. St. Paul is talking about the free act of mercy and charity of God towards man, with the fullness of time, Jesus died on the Holy Cross, and established water baptism [john3:5]. Man, in the old testament could not merit heaven under the old law, it was a prototype of the new testament, it required a merciful act of God i.e. the death, resurrection of Jesus Christ and the establishment of His church and sacraments. And water baptism is the gateway to salvation. Look at the preceding verses below of Ephesians 2, to confirm that it was a merciful act on God's part, man had no part in it. Even Ephesians 2:8 says it was a gift from God.

 

Ephesians 2:4-5 [4] But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,)

 

But now having said that, look at Ephesians 8:10 we are created in Jesus Christ for good works, which God prepared so that we can walk in them i.e. doing good works. St. Paul to Titus says the same thing, regarding the free act of mercy on the part of God, man played no part in this act. And the subsequent verses do speak about having to do good works and that they are profitable to men.

 

Titus 3:4-8 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: [5] Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour: That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting. It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

 

The bible cannot contradict itself. And so, concerning works, St. Paul is talking about two distinct things i.e. first justification i.e. death and resurrection of Jesus Christ [blood] and water baptism and then the works thereafter, that are profitable, to the increase of faith.

 

1 John 5:6-8 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

 

Son of a gun, while he misunderstood the point I was making, he did get this theology right!

Faith justifies us and THEN we do good works that are profitable for our growth as Christians.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The RCC is currently debating whether to elevate Mary to CO-friggin-REDEMPTRIX.

@atpollard, I had to laugh when I read this! I'm afraid I don't keep abreast of what's going on in the RCC, and although I had heard the term coredemptrix before I didn't know that status was a work in process. Do you know if they will have to hold some kind of a council to decide it, or can you point me to a page that discusses it? Thanks, and Merry Christmas to you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@atpollard, I had to laugh when I read this! I'm afraid I don't keep abreast of what's going on in the RCC, and although I had heard the term coredemptrix before I didn't know that status was a work in process. Do you know if they will have to hold some kind of a council to decide it, or can you point me to a page that discusses it? Thanks, and Merry Christmas to you!

 

Some information from the RCC itself: Mary, Mother of Salvation

 

Some information from Wikipedia

 

Excerpt from a 2017 News Report from the Catholic News Agency:

Detroit, Mich., Apr 4, 2017 / 03:04 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Earlier this year, the International Marian Association submitted a request to Pope Francis, asking for the public recognition of the title of Mary as “Co-Redemptrix with Jesus the Redeemer.”

 

The 10-page document was submitted by the Theological Commission of the International Marian Association, a group of more than 100 theologians, bishops, priests, religious, and lay leaders from over 20 countries dedicated to the “full truth and love of Mary, Mother of Jesus.” It comes during the 100th year anniversary of the Marian apparitions at Fatima, Portugal.

 

The significance of the request, if it were to receive approval, is that the faithful would be given further clarity on Mary’s unique role in cooperation with Christ in the work of redemption, Dr. Robert Fastiggi, Professor of Mariology at Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit, told CNA.

 

“I think many people sense the spread of evil in the world and see the importance of highlighting Mary’s role as spiritual Mother,” Dr. Fastiggi said in e-mail comments.

 

“A papal statement on Marian coredemption would deepen our understanding of Mary’s role as the New Eve who collaborates with her Son, the New Adam, ‘in giving back supernatural life to souls,’” he added, referring to the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, @atpollard, that is much appreciated, especially the article on "Mary, Mother of Salvation." I found the few scripture verses that were presented to support the idea were not very convincing, to say the least!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With Rome it has always been a matter of confusing sanctification with justification. They take one portion of Scripture and try to make all Scripture fit into this one portion rather than making the one portion fit into the rest of Scripture.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always considered myself pretty ecumenical.

 

Lately, at another board -- I was specifically called a HERETIC just because I am Protestant, by both an RCC member and an Orthodox (which hurt a lot - my son is Orthodox, very devout)

 

I need a PROTESTANT board with no Protestant-bashing by the minority of RCC and Orthos who engage in it.

 

Am I in the right place?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staff
I always considered myself pretty ecumenical.

 

Lately, at another board -- I was specifically called a HERETIC just because I am Protestant, by both an RCC member and an Orthodox (which hurt a lot - my son is Orthodox, very devout)

 

I need a PROTESTANT board with no Protestant-bashing by the minority of RCC and Orthos who engage in it.

 

Am I in the right place?

 

Sure are, I am only aware of one RCC member here on this board. We regulate how many RCC are on this board as to not be overrun.

 

Hope your fellowship here is fruitful.

 

God bless,

William

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I always considered myself pretty ecumenical.

 

Lately, at another board -- I was specifically called a HERETIC just because I am Protestant, by both an RCC member and an Orthodox (which hurt a lot - my son is Orthodox, very devout)

 

I need a PROTESTANT board with no Protestant-bashing by the minority of RCC and Orthos who engage in it.

 

Am I in the right place?

 

Welcome aboard! Yeah, we try to keep this area as Protestant- focused as we can. Becky and William are excellent at keeping the tares separate from the wheat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

with what I went thru lately - all stuff disagreed between Protestants (like Arminian-Calvinism, OSAS vs OSnAS, pretrib vs postrib) -- it all seems like LITTLE STUFF

 

I had no idea I as a Protestant was a HERETIC in eyes of RCC and Orthodox

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...