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Fidelis ad Mortem

Are Catholics cannibals?

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Because Catholics claim that the Lord is truly present in the bread, does that mean that they eat God?

 

Ritual, superstition, and self-salvation. That sums up the Roman Church. On top of that, yes, they practice cannibalism.

.

 

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Ritual, superstition, and self-salvation. That sums up the Roman Church. On top of that, yes, they practice cannibalism.

... and I heard the Bishops wear those tall hats to cover up their horns. :RpS_tongue: [just kidding] :RpS_biggrin:

 

 

Because Catholics claim that the Lord is truly present in the bread, does that mean that they eat God?

Welcome to CF.

I hope you have some thick skin, because this is a Reformed Prostestant dominated site. This does not mean that EVERYONE here hates you and thinks that your mother dresses you funny, but the reality is that the vast majority WILL disagree with what you believe. For the record, I first heard the GOSPEL from Catholic Charismatics, but could never get aboard with all the Mary 'veneration' that sure felt a lot like worship to this ex-atheist turned brand new Christian. So I got no hate for the RCC, but I do think that the RCC got some of the details seriously wrong.

 

Now to answer the question with a joke:


Q. How many legs does a cow have?

A. Four.

 

Q. If we say that a cow's tail is a leg, then how many legs does a cow have?

A. Five?

 

Q. Wrong, four. Just because we say that a cow's tail is a leg, does not make it so.


Same thing with the bread and wine.

 

 

 

Why is it a false doctrine?

We are big on Sola Scriptura ... if the Bible said it, then it is true and we believe it and we needed to know it. If the Bible doesn't teach that, then it is either not true or not essential to salvation. I would welcome your pointing to where the Bible teaches that the bread and wine became the literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. I'll offer you some starting points to think about that show why protestants have a problem with that view:

 

Matthew 26:26-29 NASB

26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and [fn]after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

 

Mark 14:22-25 NASB

22 While they were eating, He took some bread, and [fn]after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is My body.” 23 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24 And He said to them, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. 25 Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

 

Luke 22:14-20 NASB

14 When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. 15 And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; 18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

 

1 Corinthians 11:23-16 NASB

23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

 

From the three Gospels, note that Jesus was standing there, fully intact, and made reference both before and after offering his "body" and "blood" to the bread and wine. It was wine before he proclaimed it "My blood of the new covenant" and it was still wine after they drank it and Jesus said "I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine". From Corinthians, Paul affirms that they are in fact eating "bread" and drinking "wine" in remembrance of Jesus and to proclaim Jesus' death until he comes.

 

Above and beyond the fact that no one recorded any comment that they were eating human (or God-man) flesh and drinking blood ... which SOMEONE should have mentioned, since that is a significant detail to overlook ... there are verses that state that they COULD NOT have drunk human blood:

 

Genesis 9:4 NASB Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

Leviticus 3:17 NASB It is a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings: you shall not eat any fat or any blood.’”

Leviticus 7:26-27 NASB ‘You are not to eat any blood, either of bird or animal, in any of your dwellings.‘ Any person who eats any blood, even that person shall be cut off from his people.'”

 

Drinking blood is a violation of God's covenant with Noah and the Law in Leviticus. In offering blood to drink, Jesus would have sinned and NOT been the perfect sacrifice.

 

Leviticus 6:30 NASB ‘But no sin offering of which any of the blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the holy place shall be eaten; it shall be burned with fire.

 

Was Jesus the sin offering for Mankind or not? If so, He is not to be eaten (according to the Law). Did Jesus violate the Law of God?

 

Leviticus 17:10-14

10 ‘And any man from the house of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’ 12 Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘No person among you may eat blood, nor may any alien who sojourns among you eat blood.’ 13 So when any man from the sons of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, in hunting catches a beast or a bird which may be eaten, he shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth.

14 “For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.’

 

So did Jesus (and do the Catholic Priests) lead the people into an action that requires God to "set his face against them" and cut them off from the people of God? Not much of a savior if he does.

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It's cannibalism and it's re-sacrificing Christ, Christ sacrifice was once for all and suffient for our sins past, present, and future, Mass is an insult to the work of Christ on the cross.

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The Catholics would say there that protestant doctrine is man made, how would you refute this claim?

 

Protestantism is biblical Christianity, the claim that a doctrine is man made is thrown around loosely, any doctrine could be called a doctrine of man. Yet Roman Catholicism is fueled by solely man made doctrines. For example: intercession to Christ though Mary all started with a dream a Bishop had, even though Scripture tells Christ is the only way to the Father and makes on mention of Mary as a part of salvation, making it a false doctrine, making the Roman Catholic church apostate.

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The Catholics would say there that protestant doctrine is man made, how would you refute this claim?

 

Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.

Sola Fide (“faith alone”): We are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Sola Gratia (“grace alone”): We are saved by the grace of God alone.

Solus Christus (“Christ alone”): Jesus Christ alone is our Lord, Savior, and King.

Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”): We live for the glory of God alone.

 

SOLA SCRIPTURA

 

The Scriptures are our ultimate and trustworthy authority for faith and practice. This doesn’t mean that the Bible is the only place where truth is found, but it does mean that everything else we learn about God and his world, and all other authorities, should be interpreted in light of Scripture. The Bible gives us everything we need for our theology.

 

Every word of the 66 books of the Bible is inspired by God’s Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit also helps us to understand and obey Scripture.

 

2 Peter 2:20, the Bible is about Jesus Christ and his role as God and Savior. Additionally, Romans 15:4 is 2 Timothy 2:16.

SOLA FIDE AND SOLA GRATIA

 

We are saved solely through faith in Jesus Christ because of God’s grace and Christ’s merit alone. We are not saved by our merits or declared righteous by our good works. God grants salvation not because of the good things we do, and despite our sin.

 

As humans, we inherited (from our ancestor Adam) a nature that is enslaved to sin. Because of our nature, we are naturally enemies of God and lovers of evil. We need to be made alive (regenerated) so that we can even have faith in Christ. God graciously chooses to give us new hearts so that we trust in Christ and are saved through faith alone.

 

God graciously preserves us and keeps us. When we are faithless toward him, he is still faithful.

 

We can only stand before God by his grace as he mercifully attributes to us the righteousness of Jesus Christ and attributes to him the consequences of our sins. Jesus’ life of perfect righteousness is counted as ours, and our records of sin and failure were counted to Jesus when he died on the cross.

 

Sola fide and sola gratia express the teaching of Ephesians 2:8:

 

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

SOLUS CHRISTUS

 

God has given the ultimate revelation of himself to us by sending Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:15. Only through God’s gracious self-revelation in Jesus do we come to a saving and transforming knowledge of God.

 

1 Timothy 1:5. Because God is holy and all humans are sinful and sinners, 1 John 1:1 Hebrews 7:25 Romans 8:34. Neither religious rituals nor good works mediate between us and God. Acts 4:12 by which a person can be saved other than the name of Jesus. Hebrews 7:23, and his sacrificial death alone can atone for sin.

SOLI DEO GLORIA

 

Glory belongs to God alone. God’s glory is the central motivation for salvation, not improving the lives of people—though that is a wonderful by product. God is not a means to an end—he is the means and the end.

 

The goal of all of life is to give glory to God alone: “Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31). As The Westminster Catechism says, the chief purpose of human life is “to glorify God and enjoy him forever.”

 

 

Which of these 'solas' does Jesus Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit find objectionable and contrary to the message Jesus taught when He was on the earth?

 

Contrast that with the steady drift of the RCC from the Gospel that Jesus spoke to the current system that is pondering the role of Mary, Queen of the Universe as co-Redemptrix (likely to become Dogma within our lifetime).

Which is the true "man-made" doctrine and which is the "God breathed" revelation of Scripture?

(That is how I would respond to that claim).

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@Fidelis ad Mortem . Because "protestants can show their doctrine form Scripture" During the Reformation Martin Luther continually asked for refutation of his doctrine from the Scriptures. Rome would not because they could not. Their response was either the Church The Church The Fathers The Fathers never the Scriptures. When many cities were considering accepting the Reformation or not The Reformers would show up ready for debate with the Scriptures. The Romanists would either not show up or be unwilling and unable to refute them from the Scriptures crying again you guessed it The Church The Church The Fathers The Fathers or for good measure tradition.
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... and I heard the Bishops wear those tall hats to cover up their horns. :RpS_tongue: [just kidding] :RpS_biggrin:

 

 

 

Welcome to CF.

I hope you have some thick skin, because this is a Reformed Prostestant dominated site. This does not mean that EVERYONE here hates you and thinks that your mother dresses you funny, but the reality is that the vast majority WILL disagree with what you believe. For the record, I first heard the GOSPEL from Catholic Charismatics, but could never get aboard with all the Mary 'veneration' that sure felt a lot like worship to this ex-atheist turned brand new Christian. So I got no hate for the RCC, but I do think that the RCC got some of the details seriously wrong.

 

Now to answer the question with a joke:


Q. How many legs does a cow have?

A. Four.

 

Q. If we say that a cow's tail is a leg, then how many legs does a cow have?

A. Five?

 

Q. Wrong, four. Just because we say that a cow's tail is a leg, does not make it so.


Same thing with the bread and wine.

 

 

 

 

We are big on Sola Scriptura ... if the Bible said it, then it is true and we believe it and we needed to know it. If the Bible doesn't teach that, then it is either not true or not essential to salvation. I would welcome your pointing to where the Bible teaches that the bread and wine became the literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. I'll offer you some starting points to think about that show why protestants have a problem with that view:

 

Matthew 26:26-29 NASB

26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and [fn]after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

 

Mark 14:22-25 NASB

22 While they were eating, He took some bread, and [fn]after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is My body.” 23 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24 And He said to them, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. 25 Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

 

Luke 22:14-20 NASB

14 When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. 15 And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; 18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

 

1 Corinthians 11:23-16 NASB

23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

 

From the three Gospels, note that Jesus was standing there, fully intact, and made reference both before and after offering his "body" and "blood" to the bread and wine. It was wine before he proclaimed it "My blood of the new covenant" and it was still wine after they drank it and Jesus said "I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine". From Corinthians, Paul affirms that they are in fact eating "bread" and drinking "wine" in remembrance of Jesus and to proclaim Jesus' death until he comes.

 

Above and beyond the fact that no one recorded any comment that they were eating human (or God-man) flesh and drinking blood ... which SOMEONE should have mentioned, since that is a significant detail to overlook ... there are verses that state that they COULD NOT have drunk human blood:

 

Genesis 9:4 NASB Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

Leviticus 3:17 NASB It is a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings: you shall not eat any fat or any blood.’”

Leviticus 7:26-27 NASB ‘You are not to eat any blood, either of bird or animal, in any of your dwellings.‘ Any person who eats any blood, even that person shall be cut off from his people.'”

 

Drinking blood is a violation of God's covenant with Noah and the Law in Leviticus. In offering blood to drink, Jesus would have sinned and NOT been the perfect sacrifice.

 

Leviticus 6:30 NASB ‘But no sin offering of which any of the blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the holy place shall be eaten; it shall be burned with fire.

 

Was Jesus the sin offering for Mankind or not? If so, He is not to be eaten (according to the Law). Did Jesus violate the Law of God?

 

Leviticus 17:10-14

10 ‘And any man from the house of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’ 12 Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘No person among you may eat blood, nor may any alien who sojourns among you eat blood.’ 13 So when any man from the sons of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, in hunting catches a beast or a bird which may be eaten, he shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth.

14 “For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.’

 

So did Jesus (and do the Catholic Priests) lead the people into an action that requires God to "set his face against them" and cut them off from the people of God? Not much of a savior if he does.

Where is Sola Scriptura found in the Bible?

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Sola Scripture is a principle. Christ was always pointing men to the Scriptures and if I may, to the Scriptures alone (Sola Scriptura) It means in all matters of faith and practice the Scripture alone is the final authority. Just like Sola Christus Sola Fide Salvation by faith alone in Christ alone which is taught all throughout Scripture. The Scriptures nowhere say You shall not read Playboy magazine, but it does say that if you look at a woman to lust after her you have already committed adultery with her in your heart. Trinity is not found in Scripture but the doctrine is clearly taught in Scripture.

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It's cannibalism and it's re-sacrificing Christ, Christ sacrifice was once for all and suffient for our sins past, present, and future, Mass is an insult to the work of Christ on the cross.

Thank you for this discussion we're having, i am Catholic and wanted to see other people's opinion. It is not re sacrificing Christ, Catholics believe that Christ died once and for all, but the mass is participating in that one time event of the Last Supper, where he himself said in Luke 22:19-20 " And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you." Tell me, when Christ said 'This is my body' did he mean 'this represents my body'? Christ commanded us to partake in these mysteries, is it cannibalism?

 

 

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Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.

Sola Fide (“faith alone”): We are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Sola Gratia (“grace alone”): We are saved by the grace of God alone.

Solus Christus (“Christ alone”): Jesus Christ alone is our Lord, Savior, and King.

Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”): We live for the glory of God alone.

 

SOLA SCRIPTURA

 

SOLA FIDE AND SOLA GRATIA

 

SOLUS CHRISTUS

 

SOLI DEO GLORIA

 

 

 

 

Which of these 'solas' does Jesus Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit find objectionable and contrary to the message Jesus taught when He was on the earth?

 

Contrast that with the steady drift of the RCC from the Gospel that Jesus spoke to the current system that is pondering the role of Mary, Queen of the Universe as co-Redemptrix (likely to become Dogma within our lifetime).

Which is the true "man-made" doctrine and which is the "God breathed" revelation of Scripture?

(That is how I would respond to that claim).

Sola Scriptura isn't found in the Bible

Sola Fidei isn't present either James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Sola Gratia, but we have free will and works aid to salvation this can be found in Genesis.(free will)

Solus Christus, so we can't pray for each other? Prayer is found all over the Bible, if we pray for each other, we are mediating God's grace! Isnt that wrong?

Soli Deo Gloria we worship God too!

Feel free to refute these claims you can end the discussion if you want to, just want to discuss, hopefully you won't kick me out

God bless you

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@Fidelis ad Mortem The Apostles were Jews and the idea of someone giving them their physical body and blood was unlawful as well as repulsive. Jesus used figurative language often. I am the door, I am the true vine, I am the good shepherd. Elsewhere he is referred to as the Sun of Righteousness and we are told our God is a consuming fire. We don't literally mean that God is fire or a blowtorch a plant or a piece of wood. We must use language the way Scripture uses it. We feed on the body and blood of Christ spiritually not physically.
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@Fidelis ad Mortem .Just a little background on me. I was brought up in the Roman system and studied eight years under the Dominicans and one year under the Jesuits. After nine years of a private education my dad could no longer afford to send me to private school. I give thanks always for my early education. Every time I am able to read, follow, an argument, think, and discern clearly. One thing that was always impressed on me was the fact that the Scriptures were the Word of God. In fact in one of my classes their was a bible that when you opened it said This is the Word of the Lord. When I began to study the Scriptures and discovered that what the Scriptures said and what the church said came into conflict for me it was the proverbial no brainer to choose God over the church.All my adult life I have attended congregations where the Word of God is taught and expounded to a greater or lesser degree.

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When it comes to our salvation our will is in bondage to sin and not free(read Martin Luther The Bondage of the Will) his response to Erasmus on Free Will. Yes it is okay for Roman Catholics to read Luther. Unfortunately in one sense he is read more in Catholic circles than in Lutheran. A good friend of mine (Roman Catholic) read Luther and found much agreement with him as most Catholics who read him do. As with any author compare what he says with Scripture as Luther himself would encourage you to do The Scriptures teach that we are dead in trespasses and sins and that we are without strength and left to ourselves we will not come to him. Salvation is referred to as a new birth a new creation. We had nothing to do with our birth or creation and so we have nothing to do with our salvation. As Jonah says Salvation is of the Lord.

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@Fidelis ad Mortem The Apostles were Jews and the idea of someone giving them their physical body and blood was unlawful as well as repulsive. Jesus used figurative language often. I am the door, I am the true vine, I am the good shepherd. Elsewhere he is referred to as the Sun of Righteousness and we are told our God is a consuming fire. We don't literally mean that God is fire or a blowtorch a plant or a piece of wood. We must use language the way Scripture uses it. We feed on the body and blood of Christ spiritually not physically.

There is no evidence of the apostles being disgusted, in fact Paul himself believes it!

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Exactly,because they did not take him literally. They understood he spoke in a figurative sense.Paul believes it in the same sense the other apostles do.

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Sola Scriptura isn't found in the Bible

 

Deuteronomy 8:3 NASB “He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NASB All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

 

What non-Biblical source do you have for "everything that proceeds from the mouth of God"?

And far more to the point, how can ANYTHING that contradicts the WORDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD be seriously considered rather than God's Word?

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Sola Fidei isn't present either James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

 

Did you actually read all of James Chapter 2?

What is the general, broad topic James is discussing?

Is James really teaching us that faith in God is inadequate? Is that the official teaching of the RCC? Jesus Death, Burial and Ressurection is sadly inadequate to save the lost without the extensive efforts of fallen men? Who is this God you worship?

 

John 3:10-21 NASB

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[fn] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[fn] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

This is the Jesus Christ that a group of Catholic Charismatics introduced me to.

Have you met Him?

Does it SOUND like He needs our help?

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Sola Gratia, but we have free will and works aid to salvation this can be found in Genesis.(free will)

 

You will need to be more specific. Genesis is pretty big.

 

Adam was free to follow his nature and choose sin. Eve was free to follow her nature and choose sin. Cain was free to follow his nature and kill Abel.

Is that the "free will" you were talking about.

 

How about when Noah used his free will to refuse God's call to build an Ark? When Abram used his free will and refused God's call to a new land? When Joseph exercised his free will and refused God's call to Egypt? When Moses refused God's call to go to Pharaoh? ... Oh yeah, they all obeyed God's call, didn't they?

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