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theophilus

Do children who die in infancy go to Heaven?

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theophilus
I think Michael obeys God out of love and reverence not because he is incapable of sin. The same with Christians.

I don't know whether Michael can sin but Christians have a new nature that is incapable of sinning. While we remain here on earth we can sin because we still have our old nature but after we die the old nature will be eliminated and we will remain forever incapable of sinning.

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atpollard
We were discussing the very young I would state they would be "blameless" which is not the same as "sinless" Though I am not sure what one would charge a infant with. Certainly not a just God. Not soul death.

 

Which is the beauty of the whole situation ... the decision is 100% out of our hands. We have no power over any soul (not even ours - faith is a gift). All we need to decide is whether we believe that God will do the right thing or not.

 

Are my sins forgiven? ... "Do you trust God?"

Can I loose my salvation? ... "Do you trust God?"

Do babies go to heaven? ... "Do you trust God?"

 

Funny how many questions really come down to "Do you trust God?"

 

Personally, I trust that God will do whatever He deems necessary so that everyone that should be in Heaven (according to the Perfect wisdom of omniscient God) will be, and nobody will be in Heaven that should not be (again according to the Perfect wisdom of omniscient God). I am content to allow God to handle the really hard decisions and trust that His answer will be not only the 'right' answer, but the 'perfect' answer.

 

 

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William
Staff

 

Which is the beauty of the whole situation ... the decision is 100% out of our hands. We have no power over any soul (not even ours - faith is a gift). All we need to decide is whether we believe that God will do the right thing or not.

 

Are my sins forgiven? ... "Do you trust God?"

Can I loose my salvation? ... "Do you trust God?"

Do babies go to heaven? ... "Do you trust God?"

 

Funny how many questions really come down to "Do you trust God?"

 

Personally, I trust that God will do whatever He deems necessary so that everyone that should be in Heaven (according to the Perfect wisdom of omniscient God) will be, and nobody will be in Heaven that should not be (again according to the Perfect wisdom of omniscient God). I am content to allow God to handle the really hard decisions and trust that His answer will be not only the 'right' answer, but the 'perfect' answer.

 

 

I find yours the best answer.

 

There's an apologetic video on the subject of abortion called 180.

 

In the video the host Ray Comfort asks the question, if you could kill Adolph Hitler while in the womb would you? You have his pregnant mother in your rifle sights, would you pull the trigger?

 

I think it a very interesting question, especially considering salvation is by grace and not according to anything we have done. What really interests me is the apparent contradiction. If God starts off loving everyone with effectual grace but later loses some, like Adolf Hitler, than none of us can be ensured salvation. I mean who would of known, Adolf could of been saved by a time traveler taking him out in the womb ? By some arguments abortionist are doing babies a favor by taking them before an age of accountability.

 

The reason why I like your answer atpollard is because your emphasis is upon God rather than circumstances or speculation. We trust in God in these matters, but some are sure to say, I could not love (agape) a God that could condemn a baby to hell.

 

 

God bless,

William

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Just Mike

William, have you ever thought about it, would you have killed Hitler after he started Murdering so many Jews and Christians?

 

I would have. There were several attempts to kill him, one came very close.

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Sue D.

There was a situation some years ago -- maybe I heard about it on the 700 Club. A cartel leader person was Finally arrested and off the streets. He'd had a notorious reputation. The miracle happened while he was in prison. He heard the Gospel and accepted Christ as his Savior. And he led Bible studies. Who would have thought?! And he was once a tiny baby. Hitler was once a tiny baby -- there's rumors that maybe he came to Christ at the 'last minute'.

 

We might be surprised at who we see in heaven. And saddened by those we Don't see.

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Fastfredy0
There was a situation some years ago -- maybe I heard about it on the 700 Club. A cartel leader person was Finally arrested and off the streets. He'd had a notorious reputation. The miracle happened while he was in prison. He heard the Gospel and accepted Christ as his Savior. And he led Bible studies. Who would have thought?! And he was once a tiny baby. Hitler was once a tiny baby -- there's rumors that maybe he came to Christ at the 'last minute'.

 

We might be surprised at who we see in heaven. And saddened by those we Don't see.

Once God takes away all the "CRAP" in me I may not be recognizable. Maybe we will have name tags.

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Sue D.
There was a situation some years ago -- maybe I heard about it on the 700 Club. A cartel leader person was Finally arrested and off the streets. He'd had a notorious reputation. The miracle happened while he was in prison. He heard the Gospel and accepted Christ as his Savior. And he led Bible studies. Who would have thought?! And he was once a tiny baby. Hitler was once a tiny baby -- there's rumors that maybe he came to Christ at the 'last minute'.

 

We might be surprised at who we see in heaven. And saddened by those we Don't see.

We'll get a glorified body, Not a different one. I wouldn't recognize you Now if I saw you. Just wear a red carnation on your lapel.

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Fastfredy0
There was a situation some years ago -- maybe I heard about it on the 700 Club. A cartel leader person was Finally arrested and off the streets. He'd had a notorious reputation. The miracle happened while he was in prison. He heard the Gospel and accepted Christ as his Savior. And he led Bible studies. Who would have thought?! And he was once a tiny baby. Hitler was once a tiny baby -- there's rumors that maybe he came to Christ at the 'last minute'.

 

We might be surprised at who we see in heaven. And saddened by those we Don't see.

Not a different body? Gee, it would suck to have been born with spinal bifida. I would prefer 1975 version of my body ... can I a least have that?

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Sue D.
There was a situation some years ago -- maybe I heard about it on the 700 Club. A cartel leader person was Finally arrested and off the streets. He'd had a notorious reputation. The miracle happened while he was in prison. He heard the Gospel and accepted Christ as his Savior. And he led Bible studies. Who would have thought?! And he was once a tiny baby. Hitler was once a tiny baby -- there's rumors that maybe he came to Christ at the 'last minute'.

 

We might be surprised at who we see in heaven. And saddened by those we Don't see.

A completely whole, healthy body -- one that could walk through walls -- glorified. If You can have a 1975 version of Yourself then can I have a size 12 back? ( you realize, of course, that 'this' has Nothing to do with the thread topic). :)

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Frosty

We are all born into this world by natural birth as "dead in sins" because of Adam's sin.  Babies that die young are regenerated (born again of the Holy Spirit) before they die and are going to heaven as God's elect.  Ps 73 says that the wicked live to be old and prosper.

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Becky
Moderator

Psa 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 
 

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Frosty
5 hours ago, Becky said:

Psa 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 
 

But the wicked do not die as babies.

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William
Staff
6 minutes ago, Frosty said:

But the wicked do not die as babies.

Were Canaanite children righteous?

 

What about Psalm 137:9? 

 

Was the Psalmist's expression unjust?

 

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Frosty
On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 9:15 AM, atpollard said:

 

Which is the beauty of the whole situation ... the decision is 100% out of our hands. We have no power over any soul (not even ours - faith is a gift). All we need to decide is whether we believe that God will do the right thing or not.

 

Are my sins forgiven? ... "Do you trust God?"

Can I loose my salvation? ... "Do you trust God?"

Do babies go to heaven? ... "Do you trust God?"

 

Funny how many questions really come down to "Do you trust God?"

 

Personally, I trust that God will do whatever He deems necessary so that everyone that should be in Heaven (according to the Perfect wisdom of omniscient God) will be, and nobody will be in Heaven that should not be (again according to the Perfect wisdom of omniscient God). I am content to allow God to handle the really hard decisions and trust that His answer will be not only the 'right' answer, but the 'perfect' answer.

 

 

When it comes down to it, God will accomplish all his will.  But we are on this forum to discuss scripture to see if we can find out what his will is.

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Frosty
7 minutes ago, William said:

Were Canaanite children righteous?

 

What about Psalm 137:9? 

 

Was the Psalmist's expression unjust?

 

I believe that the inspired scriptures do not contradict each other and that they all have to harmonize to be the doctrine of Jesus, so what are you going to do with Ps 73 where it says that the wicked live to be old?

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William
Staff
57 minutes ago, Frosty said:

I believe that the inspired scriptures do not contradict each other and that they all have to harmonize to be the doctrine of Jesus, so what are you going to do with Ps 73 where it says that the wicked live to be old?

I'm not suggesting they do contradict. However were the infants condemned to death in both scriptural references innocent of any sin in condemnation? You are going to have to examine your premise. For example, was Job wicked?

 

Have you not isolated one verse? That is, rather than approaching the scriptures systematically? Are you the best interpreter of a single verse or are other verses? Do only the wicked live long in days? And how does that even consider the eternal life of believers?

 

God bless and welcome to Christforums,

William 

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Frosty
1 hour ago, William said:

I'm not suggesting they do contradict. However were the infants condemned to death in both scriptural references innocent of any sin imposed in condemnation? You are going to have to examine your premise. For example, was Job wicked?

 

Have you not isolated one verse? That is, rather than approaching the scriptures systematically? Are you the best interpreter of a single verse or are other verses? Do only the wicked live long in days? And how does that even consider the eternal life of believers?

 

God bless and welcome to Christforums,

William 

I'm sorry, William, but I guess you lost me on your last statement.  I thought we were talking about the destination of persons who die as babies and I must have missed your reference to the destination of believers.  Maybe you can clear that up for me. It may just be my 83 years of age.  Thanks.  I hope my age does not qualify me as the wicked, just kidding!

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William
Staff
19 minutes ago, Frosty said:

I'm sorry, William, but I guess you lost me on your last statement.  I thought we were talking about the destination of persons who die as babies and I must have missed your reference to the destination of believers.  Maybe you can clear that up for me. It may just be my 83 years of age.  Thanks.

If the Canaanite children and also what appears as the cursed in Psalm 137:9 then it appears that even the wicked are cut short in days and die as infants. God decrees that man shall live only for a period of time before the flood account because of the wickedness in the world. Was that decree only made towards believers or was the decree universal and made to all of mankind?

 

Lemme ask you, if eternal life (life with God) is only offered to believers and not the wicked then is it your contention that those that were on the receiving end of God's wrath were destined to heaven? These include: those that perished in the flood (which may of included infants), definitely Canaanite children, and the Babylonian children in Psalm 137 which were cursed.

I am willing to examine Psalm 73 in light of these other Scriptures.

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Frosty
39 minutes ago, William said:

If the Canaanite children and also what appears as the cursed in Psalm 137:9 then it appears that even the wicked are cut short in days and die as infants. God decrees that man shall live only for a period of time before the flood account because of the wickedness in the world. Was that decree only made towards believers or was the decree universal and made to all of mankind?

 

Lemme ask you, if eternal life (life with God) is only offered to believers and not the wicked then is it your contention that those that were on the receiving end of God's wrath were destined to heaven? These include: those that perished in the flood (which may of included infants), definitely Canaanite children, and the Babylonian children in Psalm 137 which were cursed.

Sometimes, I just have to say "I don't know"  Sometimes it seems the more I study, the less I know..           

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William
Staff
2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Sometimes, I just have to say "I don't know"  Sometimes it seems the more I study, the less I know..           

Let's leave man's final destination to God! All we may demonstrate faith in is God. God's elect, whether infant or adult are in our beloved Lord's hands. 

 

God bless,

William 

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Frosty
5 minutes ago, William said:

Let's leave man's final destination to God! All we can demonstrate faith in is God. God's elect, whether infant or adult are in our beloved Lord's hands. 

 

God bless,

William 

I whole heartedly believe your last sentence.  Thank you.

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atpollard
18 hours ago, Frosty said:

When it comes down to it, God will accomplish all his will.  But we are on this forum to discuss scripture to see if we can find out what his will is.

Perhaps I wasn't clear :classic_wink:  ...

... It is my opinion that, after reading scripture, that the perfect will of God is [drum roll] ...  "For us to trust Him."  :classic_biggrin:

 

i.e. ...

  • [John 2:23 NLT] 23 Because of the miraculous signs Jesus did in Jerusalem at the Passover celebration, many began to trust in him.
  • [John 12:36, 44, 46 NLT] 36 Put your trust in the light while there is still time; then you will become children of the light." After saying these things, Jesus went away and was hidden from them. ... 44 Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are trusting not only me, but also God who sent me. ... 46 I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark.
  • [John 14:1 NLT] 1 "Don't let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me.
  • [Acts 14:23 NLT] 23 Paul and Barnabas also appointed elders in every church. With prayer and fasting, they turned the elders over to the care of the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
  • [Romans 11:22 NLT] 22 Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.
  • [Romans 15:13 NLT] 13 I pray that God, the source of hope, will fill you completely with joy and peace because you trust in him. Then you will overflow with confident hope through the power of the Holy Spirit.
  • [1 Corinthians 2:5 NLT] 5 I did this so you would trust not in human wisdom but in the power of God.
  • [2 Corinthians 3:4 NLT] 4 We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ.
  • [Ephesians 1:12 NLT] 12 God's purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God.
  • [Ephesians 3:17 NLT] 17 Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God's love and keep you strong.
  • [1 Timothy 6:17 NLT] 17 Teach those who are rich in this world not to be proud and not to trust in their money, which is so unreliable. Their trust should be in God, who richly gives us all we need for our enjoyment.
  • [2 Timothy 1:12 NLT] 12 That is why I am suffering here in prison. But I am not ashamed of it, for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return.
  • [Titus 3:8 NLT] 8 This is a trustworthy saying, and I want you to insist on these teachings so that all who trust in God will devote themselves to doing good. These teachings are good and beneficial for everyone.
  • [Hebrews 2:13 NLT] 13 He also said, "I will put my trust in him," that is, "I and the children God has given me."
  • [1 Peter 1:8, 21 NLT] 8 You love him even though you have never seen him. Though you do not see him now, you trust him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy. ... 21 Through Christ you have come to trust in God. And you have placed your faith and hope in God because he raised Christ from the dead and gave him great glory.
  • [1 Peter 2:7 NLT] 7 Yes, you who trust him recognize the honor God has given him. But for those who reject him, "The stone that the builders rejected has now become the cornerstone."
  • [1 Peter 4:19 NLT] 19 So if you are suffering in a manner that pleases God, keep on doing what is right, and trust your lives to the God who created you, for he will never fail you.
  • [1 John 4:16 NLT] 16 We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love. God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.

 

 

Edited by atpollard
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Frosty
2 hours ago, atpollard said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear :classic_wink:  ...

... It is my opinion that, after reading scripture, that the perfect will of God is [drum roll] ...  "For us to trust Him."  :classic_biggrin:

 

i.e. ...

  • [John 2:23 NLT] 23 Because of the miraculous signs Jesus did in Jerusalem at the Passover celebration, many began to trust in him.
  • [John 12:36, 44, 46 NLT] 36 Put your trust in the light while there is still time; then you will become children of the light." After saying these things, Jesus went away and was hidden from them. ... 44 Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are trusting not only me, but also God who sent me. ... 46 I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark.
  • [John 14:1 NLT] 1 "Don't let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me.
  • [Acts 14:23 NLT] 23 Paul and Barnabas also appointed elders in every church. With prayer and fasting, they turned the elders over to the care of the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
  • [Romans 11:22 NLT] 22 Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.
  • [Romans 15:13 NLT] 13 I pray that God, the source of hope, will fill you completely with joy and peace because you trust in him. Then you will overflow with confident hope through the power of the Holy Spirit.
  • [1 Corinthians 2:5 NLT] 5 I did this so you would trust not in human wisdom but in the power of God.
  • [2 Corinthians 3:4 NLT] 4 We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ.
  • [Ephesians 1:12 NLT] 12 God's purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God.
  • [Ephesians 3:17 NLT] 17 Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God's love and keep you strong.
  • [1 Timothy 6:17 NLT] 17 Teach those who are rich in this world not to be proud and not to trust in their money, which is so unreliable. Their trust should be in God, who richly gives us all we need for our enjoyment.
  • [2 Timothy 1:12 NLT] 12 That is why I am suffering here in prison. But I am not ashamed of it, for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return.
  • [Titus 3:8 NLT] 8 This is a trustworthy saying, and I want you to insist on these teachings so that all who trust in God will devote themselves to doing good. These teachings are good and beneficial for everyone.
  • [Hebrews 2:13 NLT] 13 He also said, "I will put my trust in him," that is, "I and the children God has given me."
  • [1 Peter 1:8, 21 NLT] 8 You love him even though you have never seen him. Though you do not see him now, you trust him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy. ... 21 Through Christ you have come to trust in God. And you have placed your faith and hope in God because he raised Christ from the dead and gave him great glory.
  • [1 Peter 2:7 NLT] 7 Yes, you who trust him recognize the honor God has given him. But for those who reject him, "The stone that the builders rejected has now become the cornerstone."
  • [1 Peter 4:19 NLT] 19 So if you are suffering in a manner that pleases God, keep on doing what is right, and trust your lives to the God who created you, for he will never fail you.
  • [1 John 4:16 NLT] 16 We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love. God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.

 

 

I am not trying to take away our trusting in God.  I am trying to learn what his will is. For instance, is it his will that all mankind is to go to heaven?

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atpollard
2 hours ago, Frosty said:

I am not trying to take away our trusting in God.  I am trying to learn what his will is. For instance, is it his will that all mankind is to go to heaven?

  • [Genesis 1:3-4, 6-7, 9, 11, 14-15 NASB] 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. ... 6 Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. ... 9 Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. ... 11 Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, [and] fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. ... 14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.

Looking at just the beginning of Genesis, we see a strong pattern repeated.  "God said" and "it was so".  We throw around some words to describe this being called "GOD" ...

  1. OMNIPOTENT ... meaning "all powerful" or able to do anything.
  2. OMNISCIENT ... meaning "all knowing" which means that there is nothing that God does not know.  [Isaiah 46:10] "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done ..."
  3. OMNIPRESENT ...meaning "all present" or that God is not limited to one time and place but exists everywhere and 'every-when' continuously.
  4. SOVEREIGN ..."possessing supreme or ultimate power" according to one dictionary, or in practical terms, God requires no permission but his own.  He is the highest authority that there is and in the words of Corrie Ten Boom (Nazi Holocaust survivor) "God does as He pleases, and He does it right well."

Given what we know about God (Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Sovereign) and the example we have illustrated for us in Genesis 1 ... it seems irrefutable to me that if God WANTED everyone saved in the same way that God wanted there to be Light, then "it would be so"!  Since we know from scripture and our own observations that everyone is not saved ...

  • [John 3:18-19 NASB] 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
  • [John 10:25-28 NASB] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
  • [Mat 25:32-33, 41 NASB] 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. ... 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

... the will of God must involve the salvation of some and the punishment of others.  If that were not the "will" of God, then it would not be able to happen (and God has already stated that it will happen).

Edited by atpollard

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Frosty
1 hour ago, atpollard said:
  • [Genesis 1:3-4, 6-7, 9, 11, 14-15 NASB] 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. ... 6 Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. ... 9 Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. ... 11 Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, [and] fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. ... 14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.

Looking at just the beginning of Genesis, we see a strong pattern repeated.  "God said" and "it was so".  We throw around some words to describe this being called "GOD" ...

  1. OMNIPOTENT ... meaning "all powerful" or able to do anything.
  2. OMNISCIENT ... meaning "all knowing" which means that there is nothing that God does not know.  [Isaiah 46:10] "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done ..."
  3. OMNIPRESENT ...meaning "all present" or that God is not limited to one time and place but exists everywhere and 'every-when' continuously.
  4. SOVEREIGN ..."possessing supreme or ultimate power" according to one dictionary, or in practical terms, God requires no permission but his own.  He is the highest authority that there is and in the words of Corrie Ten Boom (Nazi Holocaust survivor) "God does as He pleases, and He does it right well."

Given what we know about God (Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Sovereign) and the example we have illustrated for us in Genesis 1 ... it seems irrefutable to me that if God WANTED everyone saved in the same way that God wanted there to be Light, then "it would be so"!  Since we know from scripture and our own observations that everyone is not saved ...

  • [John 3:18-19 NASB] 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
  • [John 10:25-28 NASB] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
  • [Mat 25:32-33, 41 NASB] 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. ... 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

... the will of God must involve the salvation of some and the punishment of others.  If that were not the "will" of God, then it would not be able to happen (and God has already stated that it will happen).

I think that I get your point, if so, then I am assuming that you believe in a limited atonement.  Is that right?

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