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Hidden Manna

Bearing fruit

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There are those who preach, bearing good fruit or evil has nothing to do with salvation. But scripture warns over and over again about trees and branches that do not bear good fruit.

John the Baptist said in Matthew 3:10 “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”

Jesus also said in Matthew 7:19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”

 

So bearing good fruit sounds pretty important doesn’t it? Well some will claim they abide in Christ, and that they trust in his finished works; so what they do, or what they don’t do as it pertains to bearing fruit makes no difference at all to their salvation. But the words of Jesus also warn those who did once abide in Him for a time but did not endure and bear good fruit. Jesus warned that these fruitless branches shall be taken away. Notice Jesus says every branch "in Him" (showing they were once in Christ) that do not bear fruit shall be taken away

 

John 15:1-6 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

Notice Jesus said every branch that did abide (remain in Him) and He in them, the same will bring forth fruit. To abide in Christ is to abide in the Way He told us to walk, and to also abide in the Spirit and in the Light of the Truth of the gospel message, which leads us to Eternal Life. But not abiding in,or not remaining faithful in Christ by unbelief and being unfruitful can get you cut off from the Life of the Vine, and cast forth as a branch and burned. Here is more proof…

 

Romans 11:19-22

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

Now in the parable above in John 15:2 some will try to twist it’s true meaning and say the Father is not taking away those branches who do not bear fruit, but He is rather lifting them up to be embraced and nourished; as if God lifts up those who do not bear fruit. But I will prove this doctrine wrong by another verse of scripture and by the words of Jesus which speaks the same message.

 

First note the word usage "taketh away"G142 used(25X) in the KJV.....The KJV translates Strongs G142 in the following manner: take up (32x), take away (25x), take (25x), away with (5x), lift up (4x), bear (3x), miscellaneous (8x).

 

Notice the exact same message Jesus said in John 15:2 is spoken of again in the same way here in Matthew 13:12 with the same words used “taken away” (G142)

 

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away G142 even that he hath.”

 

Now compare to John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away G142: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

 

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Notice in John 15:6 “If a man abide not(remain) in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

These are those who did not abide (remain) in Christ, which means they were once in Christ but fell away from the faith. This is shown here also in

Jude 1:12 “These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;”

 

Jesus explained in the parable of the sower that it was the condition of the ground (heart) and those who did not hear and understand that would not remain in Him and come to bear fruit. Only those whom received His words in good ground, remained in the faith and understood God’s words.

 

Matthew 13:18-23 “Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: (abides for a while) for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

 

Another parable about bearing fruit….

Luke 13:1-9 "There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

 

So be rooted in Christ and abide in the Life of the Vine. If you abide and remain in Him you shall with patient continuance bear good fruit to the glory of the Father. Peace and God bless, Mark.

 

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Peace be unto you in Christ,

 

You know I was reading this a little earlier, wonderful post Hidden Manna, and speaking of being cut off, I had wanted to touch base with you but all my options to do so are just that.

By the way my username was "Voice" (I commented on your other thread) but I couldnt sign on again here (or anywhere actually) and so latch ditch effort I grabbed this username if only temporarily until whatever gliche is happening on my side of things is worked out. I asked for help in the introduction thread, sort of stuck.

 

I really like how you show the connections.

 

God richly bless you

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@Hidden Manna -- there are those who get somewhat defensive when it's suggested that Every believer will show Some change in their lives as a result of their salvation. Maybe simply a new interest in reading God's Word -- they feel it's being judgemental on the part of others to question someone's salvation. But upon salvation -- the Holy Spirit Does come to indwell and that Will make a difference in a person's desires/ interests.

 

Some will be directed to 'pray the sinners' prayer' and all will be taken care of. The person ends up with a false sense of security -- there is no change observed over time -- no fruits of the Spirit being observed. So -- That person Should be approached by themselves in a loving, concerned way as to how they're doing?! There Should be 'discipling' taking place with that new convert.

 

There Should be fruitfulness in a believers' life.

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Isnt there an example of a "no fruit scenario" as with the fig tree for a period of time, like three years where the dresser is shown stepping in and asking for yet another year to leave it alone till he digs around it and would dung it and then in Luke 13:9 also where he finally responds, And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

 

No one wants to be trees without fruit, but it seems to indicate a time for fruit dont you think?

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Isnt there an example of a "no fruit scenario" as with the fig tree for a period of time, like three years where the dresser is shown stepping in and asking for yet another year to leave it alone till he digs around it and would dung it and then in Luke 13:9 also where he finally responds, And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

 

No one wants to be trees without fruit, but it seems to indicate a time for fruit dont you think?

 

Yeah, I quoted from Luke 13 in my thread above. And yes all throughout scripture we see God is always trying to call back to Him those who had gone astray and have backslid, just as Jesus came to seek the sheep who had lost their way of the house of Israel. We also see in Revelation chapter 2 where the Lord is giving people a space of time to repent, so the Lord does allow a certain amount of time to repent.

 

Sorry to hear about your problems, hope you get all the bugs worked out. I thought that was you in that other thread, and I sent a PM to you, but since you changed your name already you probably didn't get it. Oh well, I'll try again later. Peace, love, and joy to you in the Holy Ghost Sis. In Christ, Mark

 

 

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@Hidden Manna -- there are those who get somewhat defensive when it's suggested that Every believer will show Some change in their lives as a result of their salvation. Maybe simply a new interest in reading God's Word -- they feel it's being judgemental on the part of others to question someone's salvation. But upon salvation -- the Holy Spirit Does come to indwell and that Will make a difference in a person's desires/ interests.

 

Some will be directed to 'pray the sinners' prayer' and all will be taken care of. The person ends up with a false sense of security -- there is no change observed over time -- no fruits of the Spirit being observed. So -- That person Should be approached by themselves in a loving, concerned way as to how they're doing?! There Should be 'discipling' taking place with that new convert.

 

There Should be fruitfulness in a believers' life.

 

I believe when a person is truly born again of the Holy Spirit there is indeed a change of the heart/mind, which will manifest itself in our words and actions. Perhaps the change for some will be more so than for others, depending on their condition before the conversion. But I was not trying to be judgmental toward any certain individuals,or trying to be what some call a "fruit inspector"; maybe more perhaps just warning others in the broad sense of the dangers of becoming unfruitful and even backsliding back into sinful behavior. Peace and God bless, Mark

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Yeah, I quoted from Luke 13 in my thread above. And yes all throughout scripture we see God is always trying to call back to Him those who had gone astray and have backslid, just as Jesus came to seek the sheep who had lost their way of the house of Israel. We also see in Revelation chapter 2 where the Lord is giving people a space of time to repent, so the Lord does allow a certain amount of time to repent.

 

Sorry to hear about your problems, hope you get all the bugs worked out. I thought that was you in that other thread, and I sent a PM to you, but since you changed your name already you probably didn't get it. Oh well, I'll try again later. Peace, love, and joy to you in the Holy Ghost Sis. In Christ, Mark

 

 

Hey thanks, I do think I have a hack attempt here since I seem to see what appears to be attempts (in respects to use of words ) in both an email account, but also in (one so far's) forums pulldown menu which (when I saw it a second time) showing the same thing (or more precisely a name reach for password in the same way in both places). The one in the email followed after what I saw didnt think much of on the board, and I hadnt linked those two together from the first but I did so (as a point of contact) when I had to make the change (when I couldnt get on here) and needed another way. And so right after is when that attempt showed up under that email's pulldown. And I thought, I saw that before at the forum, whats up with that? And that was after I was shut out and that initial email (I joined with) was supposed to receive the way back into the forum which I never received anything concerning (twice). Then I signed up with this name to another mail, and there it was again, the same words.

 

Sorry I cant respond to you in either place, I shut out of both and I didnt want you to think I was ignoring you (this took all day for me actually) to figure this out.

 

And no didnt get your PM here, you likely didnt get mine at the other (I saved it though) just cant get it to you lol

 

Trying here now but I cant figure this out and I am just having no luck (but what can I do?)

 

I am technically challenged, thats not fun to be like that.

 

Back on topic though, I have to agree with what you are pointing out, space to repent sounds about right, God is longsuffering, it patience concerning fruit also

Nothing worse then seeing brier break out to the surface (like our worst nightmare) time to repent being nigh not to the blessing (if you know what I mean?)

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Hey thanks, I do think I have a hack attempt here since I seem to see what appears to be attempts (in respects to use of words ) in both an email account, but also in (one so far's) forums pulldown menu which (when I saw it a second time) showing the same thing (or more precisely a name reach for password in the same way in both places). The one in the email followed after what I saw didnt think much of on the board, and I hadnt linked those two together from the first but I did when I had to make the change (when I couldnt get on here) and needed another way, and right after is when that attempt showed up under that emails pulldown after and I thought, I saw that before at the forum, whats up with that? And that was after I was shut out and initial email (I joined with) was supposed to receive a way back into the forum and I never received anything (twice). Then I signed up with this name to another mail, and there it was again, the same words.

 

Sorry I cant respond to you in either place, I shut out of both and I didnt want you to think I was ignoring you (this took all day for me actually) to figure this out.

 

And no didnt get your PM here, you likely didnt get mine at the other (I saved it though) just cant get it to you lol

 

Trying here now but I cant figure this out and I am just having no luck (but what can I do?)

 

I am technically challenged, thats not fun to be like that.

 

Back on topic though, I have to agree with what you are pointing out, space to repent sounds about right, God is longsuffering, it patience concerning fruit also

Nothing worse then seeing brier break out to the surface (like our worst nightmare) time to repent being nigh not to the blessing (if you know what I mean?)

 

If it's in your old email account can you change your email service? I had a problem with my yahoo account and switched to Gmail, maybe you should try switching accounts? Hope you can fix the problems.

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If it's in your old email account can you change your email service? I had a problem with my yahoo account and switched to Gmail, maybe you should try switching accounts? Hope you can fix the problems.

 

I do have a bunch of them, most of which I had forgotten, and the first I had used was my oldest one, and I was ready to discontinue that anyway (so I dont care about that one) and I always use different names, different emails and different passwords every time. I just wanted to shoot you an address (did so at the other place, you might not have received it) and so I didnt know how and where to do that discreetly and I obviously cant do it openly so I keep getting stuck.

 

Thanks, I'll try and understand this as not meant to be? LOL

Seriously, my day has consisted of contacting you and meeting walls all day long.

 

I had to laugh (thinking about the topic of late fruit) I noticed there was no tree hugging to get it to repond but tree dunging, dung on faces also is spoken of in the OT isnt it?

 

Whats your thoughts on that?

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I do have a bunch of them, most of which I had forgotten, and the first I had used was my oldest one, and I was ready to discontinue that anyway (so I dont care about that one) and I always use different names, different emails and different passwords every time. I just wanted to shoot you an address (did so at the other place, you might not have received it) and so I didnt know how and where to do that discreetly and I obviously cant do it openly so I keep getting stuck.

 

Thanks, I'll try and understand this as not meant to be? LOL

Seriously, my day has consisted of contacting you and meeting walls all day long.

 

I had to laugh (thinking about the topic of late fruit) I noticed there was no tree hugging to get it to repond but tree dunging, dung on faces also is spoken of in the OT isnt it?

 

Whats your thoughts on that?

 

LOL! I think dung on the face might be a different metaphor than dunging a tree to bear fruit, one is for the good of the tree, the other for shame. Don't give up on your computer problems just yet, it will all work out in the end. I'll PM you on it, Peace and God bless.

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LOL! I think dung on the face might be a different metaphor than dunging a tree to bear fruit, one is for the good of the tree, the other for shame. Don't give up on your computer problems just yet, it will all work out in the end. I'll PM you on it, Peace and God bless.

 

Com on now, dont you think its like a little mud in the eyes?

 

The guy washed saw people walking as trees when people can be planted as trees (trees, bearing the fruits of righteousness) or as trees without fruit (ready to be uprooted) BUT before that maybe they need to be made ashamed (of their doings) and be dunged, thats how I was thinking of it. I mean, who would have though a little mud in the eyes can help to give a man sight right?

 

Heh heh

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Com on now, dont you think its like a little mud in the eyes?

 

The guy washed saw people walking as trees when people can be planted as trees (trees, bearing the fruits of righteousness) or as trees without fruit (ready to be uprooted) BUT before that maybe they need to be made ashamed (of their doings) and be dunged, thats how I was thinking of it. I mean, who would have though a little mud in the eyes can help to give a man sight right?

 

Heh heh

 

Yeah, I guess being shamed with dung on the face can humble a person, didn't really think of it that way. Good insight! :)

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There are those who preach, bearing good fruit or evil has nothing to do with salvation. But scripture warns over and over again about trees and branches that do not bear good fruit.

John the Baptist said in Matthew 3:10 “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”

Jesus also said in Matthew 7:19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”

 

So bearing good fruit sounds pretty important doesn’t it? Well some will claim they abide in Christ, and that they trust in his finished works; so what they do, or what they don’t do as it pertains to bearing fruit makes no difference at all to their salvation. But the words of Jesus also warn those who did once abide in Him for a time but did not endure and bear good fruit. Jesus warned that these fruitless branches shall be taken away. Notice Jesus says every branch "in Him" (showing they were once in Christ) that do not bear fruit shall be taken away

 

John 15:1-6 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

Notice Jesus said every branch that did abide (remain in Him) and He in them, the same will bring forth fruit. To abide in Christ is to abide in the Way He told us to walk, and to also abide in the Spirit and in the Light of the Truth of the gospel message, which leads us to Eternal Life. But not abiding in,or not remaining faithful in Christ by unbelief and being unfruitful can get you cut off from the Life of the Vine, and cast forth as a branch and burned. Here is more proof…

 

Romans 11:19-22

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

Now in the parable above in John 15:2 some will try to twist it’s true meaning and say the Father is not taking away those branches who do not bear fruit, but He is rather lifting them up to be embraced and nourished; as if God lifts up those who do not bear fruit. But I will prove this doctrine wrong by another verse of scripture and by the words of Jesus which speaks the same message.

 

First note the word usage "taketh away"G142 used(25X) in the KJV.....The KJV translates Strongs G142 in the following manner: take up (32x), take away (25x), take (25x), away with (5x), lift up (4x), bear (3x), miscellaneous (8x).

 

Notice the exact same message Jesus said in John 15:2 is spoken of again in the same way here in Matthew 13:12 with the same words used “taken away” (G142)

 

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away G142 even that he hath.”

 

Now compare to John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away G142: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

 

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The way that works or fruits have to do with salvation is that those who have it produce good fruits as a result, not as a means of perseverance.

 

Matthew 3:10, let's get some context. Matthew 3:7-9 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves ' We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

This is the tree that the axe is at the roots of, the tree is Israel. It's not that the saved who have Christ living and working in them will lose salvation, but its the Jews of the old covenant that won't be saved just by being Jews.

​​​​​

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The way that works or fruits have to do with salvation is that those who have it produce good fruits as a result, not as a means of perseverance.

 

Matthew 3:10, let's get some context. Matthew 3:7-9 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves ' We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

This is the tree that the axe is at the roots of, the tree is Israel. It's not that the saved who have Christ living and working in them will lose salvation, but its the Jews of the old covenant that won't be saved just by being Jews.

​​​​​

 

If we abide in Christ, which is to abide in the way, the truth, and the Life of God's Word, then we shall bear good fruit by Christ working in us. But in the OP I showed by scripture that some, even though they were a part of that Vine at one time, and even though they were of that natural Olive tree of Israel, even they had become unfruitful because of disbelief. (Romans 11:19-22) And I disagree with you that the tree was Israel in Matthew 3:10 because John the Baptist said "trees" and "every tree" referring to every one. And why would John tell those of the natural Olive tree to repent and to bear good fruit if they could not be cut off from the life of the natural Olive tree? Christ is the root and goodness of that Natural Olive tree, and we saw in Romans 11 that some unfruitful branches of that tree were in fact removed and cut off.

 

Some people believe you cannot fall away from the faith and lose salvation, but I believe by the words of God you can. If someone turns away from God and back to a life of sin, not ever repenting and turning back to God, then they can be cut off like dead fruitless branches and burned as in Jesus' parable. Peace

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If we abide in Christ, which is to abide in the way, the truth, and the Life of God's Word, then we shall bear good fruit by Christ working in us. But in the OP I showed by scripture that some, even though they were a part of that Vine at one time, and even though they were of that natural Olive tree of Israel, even they had become unfruitful because of disbelief. (Romans 11:19-22) And I disagree with you that the tree was Israel in Matthew 3:10 because John the Baptist said "trees" and "every tree" referring to every one. And why would John tell those of the natural Olive tree to repent and to bear good fruit if they could not be cut off from the life of the natural Olive tree? Christ is the root and goodness of that Natural Olive tree, and we saw in Romans 11 that some unfruitful branches of that tree were in fact removed and cut off.

 

Some people believe you cannot fall away from the faith and lose salvation, but I believe by the words of God you can. If someone turns away from God and back to a life of sin, not ever repenting and turning back to God, then they can be cut off like dead fruitless branches and burned as in Jesus' parable. Peace

 

 

 

What about the sealing power of the Holy Spirit -- immediately upon a person's salvation -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell and doesn't leave until we are safely with Christ for eternity.

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If we abide in Christ, which is to abide in the way, the truth, and the Life of God's Word, then we shall bear good fruit by Christ working in us. But in the OP I showed by scripture that some, even though they were a part of that Vine at one time, and even though they were of that natural Olive tree of Israel, even they had become unfruitful because of disbelief. (Romans 11:19-22) And I disagree with you that the tree was Israel in Matthew 3:10 because John the Baptist said "trees" and "every tree" referring to every one. And why would John tell those of the natural Olive tree to repent and to bear good fruit if they could not be cut off from the life of the natural Olive tree? Christ is the root and goodness of that Natural Olive tree, and we saw in Romans 11 that some unfruitful branches of that tree were in fact removed and cut off.

 

Some people believe you cannot fall away from the faith and lose salvation, but I believe by the words of God you can. If someone turns away from God and back to a life of sin, not ever repenting and turning back to God, then they can be cut off like dead fruitless branches and burned as in Jesus' parable. Peace

 

Romans 11:19-22 refers to people groups, not salvation of individuals. We can see in Romans 11:29 that God's gifts and call are irrevocable.

 

We know we will abide in Christ because he is working within us, and Christ doesn't fail. He tells us that no one will snatch us from his hand. For one to turn from the faith something would be snatching them, leading them away with lies.

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Romans 11:19-22 refers to people groups, not salvation of individuals. We can see in Romans 11:29 that God's gifts and call are irrevocable.

 

I disagree, if they were once connected to the tree and the life of the root of the tree (Christ is the root); they were also at onetime part of God's Israel. We as Christians through Christ are grafted into the same Olive tree being made fellow citizens of God's Israel by the Spirit. Also I don't read Romans 11:29 that way.

 

[h=1]Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."[/h] This verse simply means it is the gifts and calling of God that comes first, repentance by us comes after the calling; as is also shown here....

 

 

Romans 2:4 "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

 

 

 

 

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What about the sealing power of the Holy Spirit -- immediately upon a person's salvation -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell and doesn't leave until we are safely with Christ for eternity.

 

Some believe the Holy Spirit will not depart,or be extinguished by ongoing sinful behavior, but I disagree. These verses below show how a person, after receiving the Holy Spirit can fall away from the faith.

 

[h=1]Hebrews 10:26-29[/h] 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

 

[h=1]Hebrews 6:4-6[/h] 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

 

 

 

 

 

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Twice the Bible says that God repented for something he had done in the past Genesis 6:6-7 and 1 Samuel 15:11, and a dozen or so times it says he repented or would repent of something He was about to do in the future Exodus 32:12-14; 2 Samuel 24:16; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Psalm 106:45; Jeremiah 4:28; 18:8; 26:3, 13, 19; 42:10; Joel 2:13-14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:9-10; 4:2.

 

Romans 11:29 simply means God never revokes them, or calls them in again, or takes them away.

 

God bless,

William

 

I agree that God does change His mind on some issues, but I will have to respectfully disagree with you on the meaning of Romans 11:29....Peace

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I disagree, if they were once connected to the tree and the life of the root of the tree (Christ is the root); they were also at onetime part of God's Israel. We as Christians through Christ are grafted into the same Olive tree being made fellow citizens of God's Israel by the Spirit. Also I don't read Romans 11:29 that way.

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

 

This verse simply means it is the gifts and calling of God that comes first, repentance by us comes after the calling; as is also shown here....

Romans 2:4 "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Repentance is a the result of the calling. Salvation is a package of the calling, repentance, santifcation, the beliver being conformed to the likeness of Christ. Works are also part of the package of election.

Romans 8:28-31.

Ephesians 2:10.

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I disagree, if they were once connected to the tree and the life of the root of the tree (Christ is the root); they were also at onetime part of God's Israel. We as Christians through Christ are grafted into the same Olive tree being made fellow citizens of God's Israel by the Spirit. Also I don't read Romans 11:29 that way.

 

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

 

This verse simply means it is the gifts and calling of God that comes first, repentance by us comes after the calling; as is also shown here....

 

 

Romans 2:4 "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

 

 

 

 

That seems to follow in my understanding as well, in respects to God loving the sinner

 

Whereas the goodness of the Lord is shown in respects to the same

 

Good and upright is the LORD:

therefore will he teach sinners in the way. (Psalm 25:8)

 

And then here even, in relation to the gifts we see the rebellious also mentioned in the context of gifts

 

Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also,

that the LORD God might dwell among them. (Psalm 68:18)

 

The receiving of gifts for men and of the same being for the "rebellious also" seems to indicate its not speaking of the repentant

 

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29)

 

So he is good and upright, therefore he will teach sinners in the way

 

And again as Paul had asked,

 

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; (Romans 2:4)

Not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

Peter affirms Paul saying that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation

 

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (2 Peter 3:15)

 

And His longsuffering is to "us-ward" in the same

 

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,

not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

 

All should come to repentance

 

Even a time of disobedience is mentioned in respects to when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah

 

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing,

wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

 

So it does seem to follow a consistent patern accordingly

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That seems to follow in my understanding as well, in respects to God loving the sinner

 

Whereas the goodness of the Lord is shown in respects to the same

 

Good and upright is the LORD:

therefore will he teach sinners in the way. (Psalm 25:8)

 

And then here even, in relation to the gifts we see the rebellious also mentioned in the context of gifts

 

Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also,

that the LORD God might dwell among them. (Psalm 68:18)

 

The receiving of gifts for men and of the same being for the "rebellious also" seems to indicate its not speaking of the repentant

 

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29)

 

So he is good and upright, therefore he will teach sinners in the way

 

And again as Paul had asked,

 

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; (Romans 2:4)

Not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

Peter affirms Paul saying that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation

 

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (2 Peter 3:15)

 

And His longsuffering is to "us-ward" in the same

 

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,

not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

 

All should come to repentance

 

Even a time of disobedience is mentioned in respects to when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah

 

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing,

wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

 

So it does seem to follow a consistent patern accordingly

 

You nicely put that together, very well done. Peace and God bless

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Some believe the Holy Spirit will not depart,or be extinguished by ongoing sinful behavior, but I disagree. These verses below show how a person, after receiving the Holy Spirit can fall away from the faith.

 

[h=1]Hebrews 10:26-29[/h] 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

 

[h=1]Hebrews 6:4-6[/h] 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a bit out of order in the discussion -- but referring to the Hebrew passage -- how about those who have heard all about salvation -- observe how God has worked in other people's lives but still reject salvation. Nothing more is available to them. They want to be able to do Something to secure their own salvation.

 

There was a lady a long time ago who acknowledged her sinfulness but felt personal responsibility to take punishment Herself. She felt it was Horrible that Jesus Christ had to die for people's sin and then rose again. That people Need to take personal responsibility for their Own sin -- if that means ending up in hell -- so be it. She insisted on taking full responsibility for her own actions.

 

Also -- if a person is sinning willfully -- in a sinful life-style -- it's possibly an indication that no salvation has taken place. That person needs to be taken aside and gently, lovingly asked about their salvation. That's one of the potential problems with easy-believism -- no one really questions the person in any depth. Either there's an 'alter-call' with the congregation 'waiting' for a decision to be made -- a card to be signed or an assumption is being made that the person came for salvation. Not much on site counseling is done. And there may or may Not be disciple-shipping being done with the person after the fact. So --if salvation has not actually taken place, then there has been no indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

And, sometimes a person goes to church maybe with a friend -- they go forward -- not really understanding Anything that's being shared -- but, they are willing to pray that prayer and leave the church as unsaved as when they entered. It's the concept that 'going to church' will solve all the problems. There is a 'safety' of being inside that church sanctuary.

 

And people Assume that when a person is attending a church and taking part in activities, can talk the talk , that they are Probably Christians and no one even Thinks of asking them about their salvation. That happened with an older couple. They'd been at that small church for Years. No one questioned them. So the wife felt led to leave there and go to another church in another area. That new pastor - in the process of getting to know them , asked her husband about his salvation. Turns out he'd never Been saved. And the pastor was able to lead him to the Lord. So after a while, they felt led to return to the other church.

 

We might feel like we're asking one of those 'weird' questions to someone who's been there for a long time -- might hurt their ego -- or get that 'look' like 'you're Seriously asking me That'?! Maybe they Need some challenging. Or some honest concern being shown to them.

 

But -- once the Holy Spirit is indwelling us, He won't leave us -- he's our guarantee.

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Sue I believe you are right that there are a lot of false conversions out there, as some have yet to be baptized of the Holy Spirit. Some believe H20 water baptism is the same as the Holy Spirit baptism, but it's not. I received the anointing of the Holy Spirit 17 years or so after I was water baptized; so I know by scripture and by experience the difference. But I also do believe people can fall away from the faith after receiving the Holy Spirit, this I also showed in the above post by the words of God.(Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-6) But I also believe that the Lord is merciful and long suffering,not willing that any should perish, and if a person repents of their sins and turns back to God, then He is able to forgive them. Peace and God bless

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