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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Chasinglight

Is Genesis a kind of parable to explain what could not have been explained?

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Science consists of people who've had - probably - secular training. Though, over the years, there have been many scientists who are Christians and support Biblical creation. There is a lot of professional pressure for scientists / instructors to teach evolution as fact. And that pressure extends to students who want to get their degrees.

 

The Bible is authored by God through the Holy Spirit and put in writing by authors who God chose to write it. Since Genesis 1:1 tells us that "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" and proceeds to tell us how and when -- I'd go for His Word.

 

There are too many loop-holes in evolutionary development. There's no real reason for anything To be existing other than the fact that we see what is and has been here. John 1:1-3 or so says that. Without Him, nothing could be here that Is here.

 

There are so many differences between mankind and animal life -- We have both spoken and written language. Man was given dominion over the animal world in Genesis.

 

One Big area is that of the fossils -- where they came from -- what they seem to indicate. The earth was created with the appearance of age. Just as Adam and Eve were. They were created with the ability to have children -- right then and there.

 

There was the world-wide flood that resulted in those fossils. Though there are lots of people who believe the flood was only local and not world-wide.

 

A person needs to decide who is the authority? God or science. When science disagrees with Bible, then I go with Bible. Lots of people won't even consider the Bible as being God's Word much less being an authority about anything.

 

It will be interesting to read other posters thoughts.

 

 

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The theory of evolution is not compatable with Scripture and it wasn't meant to be. It's an alternative thats universal with everything but Christianity.

It needs to be pointed out that it's a theory not a fact. Science is the study of what is, but evolution rest on what men think there might have been.

 

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Personally, I am Christian, but I believe in evolution.

 

Hi @Chasinglight. In this regard you may be interested in the work of BioLogos, who I believe hold to theistic evolution. My own opinion is different however. I believe the earth and universe is just as old as the current measurements indicate (old earth) however rather than look to evolution for how God created, I believe that each type of plant and animal was specially created by God and that the creation days in Genesis were long periods of time, rather than 24 hour days. For a good resource on this view, check out the Reasons to Believe web site. You may be interested in a book they published on human origins called Who Was Adam.

 

All the facts in science point towards that.

 

Regarding evolution, I think there is evidence for what they sometimes call micro evolution, which is small changes in a living thing over time, such as finch beaks getting larger or smaller or retrovirus mutations. However, I don't agree that there is good evidence for macro evolution, where you get the development of more complex creatures over time, such as dinosaurs developing into birds. The evolutionary community likes to make people think there is evidence for this, but it simply isn't true, in my opinion.

 

On this forum, just as in Christianity historically, there are different ways of understanding the Genesis creation account. I will say that I think theistic evolution is an error that leads to theological difficulties. Regarding the other views, of which there are several, I am totally "live and let live" about them, I think the issue is something Christians can come to different conclusions about.

 

God bless you as you think about these things.

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Thanks for your input. Your theory is interesting, though I think i still believe in macro evolution. Although I totally agree with the morals the bible teaches and the story of Jesus, there are however stories I find hard to accept such as Noahs Ark and Jonah and the whale. It goes against any sense of logic in me. The same applies to Genesis. But I think I can still be a good Christian despite not believing in these things, and hopefully there will be room in heaven for me one day.

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Thanks for your input. Your theory is interesting, though I think i still believe in macro evolution. Although I totally agree with the morals the bible teaches and the story of Jesus, there are however stories I find hard to accept such as Noahs Ark and Jonah and the whale. It goes against any sense of logic in me. The same applies to Genesis. But I think I can still be a good Christian despite not believing in these things, and hopefully there will be room in heaven for me one day.

 

 

 

Those things that we find hard to accept because they go against our sense of logic -- the virgin birth of Jesus Christ might fit into that catagory. As might the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Does that mean they didn't happen? Salvation is made possible through those events taking place.

 

The question would be -- Is God capable Of doing those things or not? How about the parting of the Red Sea.

 

The reason For the ark that God gave Noah instructions for building is important.

 

Jonah and the whale / big fish -- Scripture says that --just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days -- so will the Son of God be in the grave for 3 days. The one assumes the other happened.

 

Do you base your salvation on your believing those things happened? Our salvation is based on what Jesus did on the cross for us. He died For us , was buried and then rose again the 3rd day. He did that for You, personally, -- for everyone. God's Word says we need to apply that Personally.. With the heart man believes and confesses it verbally.

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Thanks for your input. Your theory is interesting, though I think i still believe in macro evolution. Although I totally agree with the morals the bible teaches and the story of Jesus, there are however stories I find hard to accept such as Noahs Ark and Jonah and the whale. It goes against any sense of logic in me. The same applies to Genesis. But I think I can still be a good Christian despite not believing in these things, and hopefully there will be room in heaven for me one day.

 

Without God life is impossible, macro evolution would be impossible, correct? So if evolution is possible by God's guidance, what makes the literal creation account any different? God can most certainty do all that he did in Scripture.

 

Now with the loosely called scientic community our Creator is rejected, to bring God into the equation is unscientific to them. So they make a story and then try to bend evidence to fit it. And where there is no evidence you have to have faith in the intelligence of the scientists. Most of what's called evidence is a trusted guess, they look at fossils and put them into their story by saying how old they are based on another guess. It's very unscientific. Just a few things to ponder, if turtles evolved to have shells because that's what they need to survive, how did they survive without shells?

Blood cloting, if blood didn't clot from the beginning, than anything that cut itself would bleed to death.

​​​​​​And giving birth, if creatures can't effectively give birth to a living baby or not die themselves in the process than life could not continue.

Scientist believe all those are possible without God, that doesn't make their theroies look so good. If they can believe in such absurdities how can anything they pass off as fact be valid.

 

 

 

​​​​​

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Personally, I am Christian, but I believe in evolution. All the facts in science point towards that. What do others think?
It is a difficult subject to take sides on, I can understand that.

Consider though, in the first 3 chapters of Genesis you have the origins of the universe, life, marriage, and evil.

If life was not created by God, why is human life valuable? Christian ethics is based on the image of God imparting equal value to all human life. If we evolved from animals what makes us more valuable than them?

If marriage was not given by God, why is it so sacred? Why are adultery and divorce condemned so harshly? Jesus says divorce is wrong because God created us male and female and He joins us together in marriage.

If evil did not originate from human free will in the garden where did it come from? How could a good God create a sinful world?

I don't know that this is a salvation issue, but theistic evolution has some big theological problems, more than old-earth creationism by itself.

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Personally, I am Christian, but I believe in evolution. All the facts in science point towards that. What do others think?

 

When you try to find out what happened in the past you need to consider not only scientific facts but historical facts. One historical question that needs to be answered is how the world began. Was it crated by God or did it develop gradually as a result of natural events? Most scientist hold the second opinion and as a result they must believe in evolution. They think the fossils found all over the earth are proof of this. On the other hands young earth creationists believe the fossils are the result of the worldwide flood in Noah's day.

 

Not all scientific facts support evolution and the belief that the world is millions of years old. You can learn about some of them here:

 

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/the-missing-navels/

 

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2016/02/11/flood-deniers-2/

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If Genesis is allegory and Adam wasn’t a real person, tear the gospel of Luke out of the Bible.

 

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,

25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,

26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,

27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,

28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,

29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,

30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,

31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,

32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,

33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,

34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,

36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,

37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

 

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There is too much speculation and assumption that goes with getting to the point where you believe that evolution is real.  It assumes that the world is billions of years ago, which is based on an unreliable and flawed method of dating things (carbon dating).  The Bible, if you take the time to extrapolate using genealogies (which some people have already done), clearly shows that the world is somewhere in the ballpark of 6000 years old.  There have been plenty of recent events that flies in the face of assuming the world is even millions of years old.

 

When it comes to scientific conclusion we are relying on theories that were developed by humans and are accepted as fact even though they contradict the bible.  

 

Let me ask you this, which of these two is perfect and will not lie: God or humans?  Once you answer that question whom will you more readily believe when it comes to something that no one on this planet has personally witnessed?

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On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 12:41 PM, Chasinglight said:

Personally, I am Christian, but I believe in evolution. All the facts in science point towards that. What do others think?

Being a Christian is admitting that you are a creationist . Growing up I heard the parental quote that rings in my ears to this day . " You can't have it both ways ! ". Seriously ! Being a Christian you must believe that God spoke everything into existence in eternity past . We cannot know the number of years this happened , we just believe that it was the Absolute Sovereignty of a God who had no beginning and will have no end that made it happen !   

Being an evolutionist you must believe that everything pre-existed over a time span of billions and billions of years. It's absurb to believe that anything can survive over a period of  one thousand million years multiplied many times over . Especially when referring to plant and animal life . I'm not an expert on the subject ,so I will have to end it there.

I believe in a Sovereign God because He foreordained in eternity past that I would at His appointed time and due season believe in Him . Not of myself lest I should dare to boast.

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On 12/6/2017 at 1:41 PM, Chasinglight said:

Personally, I am Christian, but I believe in evolution. All the facts in science point towards that. What do others think?


I would like to know when evolution stopped being a theory. If true, it would be hard to be a "good" Christian IMO.

 

John 1:3, NIV: "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." John 1:3, ESV: "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3, KJV: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

If John lied then i follow a lie, and i have no hope.

 

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On 12/6/2017 at 10:55 PM, Chasinglight said:

Thanks for your input. Your theory is interesting, though I think i still believe in macro evolution. Although I totally agree with the morals the bible teaches and the story of Jesus, there are however stories I find hard to accept such as Noahs Ark and Jonah and the whale. It goes against any sense of logic in me. The same applies to Genesis. But I think I can still be a good Christian despite not believing in these things, and hopefully there will be room in heaven for me one day.

If these are fables as some would say, then why even be a Christian? To try and cover all the bases? If you can fully explain the Lord, i would say feel free to add but that is expressly forbidden so no one can. I hope you can accept this verse, cuz we ain't seen nuttin' yet! Not trying to be snotty to you if it comes across that way.

 

1 Corinthians 2:9 International Standard Version (ISV)

9 But as it is written,

“No eye has seen, no ear has heard,
    and no mind has imagined
the things that God has prepared
    for those who love him.”

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On 12/6/2017 at 10:55 PM, Chasinglight said:

Although I totally agree with the morals the bible teaches and the story of Jesus, there are however stories I find hard to accept such as Noahs Ark and Jonah and the whale. It goes against any sense of logic in me. The same applies to Genesis. But I think I can still be a good Christian despite not believing in these things, and hopefully there will be room in heaven for me one day.

 

 How can one "still be a good Christian" despite not believing in Noah's Ark and the story of Jonah when Christ (whom a Christian is a follower and worshiper of) did believe in both events?

 For Noah's Ark see Christ's words in Luke 17:26-27.

 For the story of Jonah and the great fish see Matthew 12:40.

 

 Notice further that Christ uses the story of Jonah and the great fish in connection with His own resurrection. To cast doubt on the story of Jonah is to discredit Christ's resurrection. And to not believe in the resurrection of Christ is to not really be a Christian (Romans 10:9-10).

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On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 9:20 PM, Eric T. said:

 

Hi @Chasinglight. In this regard you may be interested in the work of BioLogos, who I believe hold to theistic evolution. My own opinion is different however. I believe the earth and universe is just as old as the current measurements indicate (old earth) however rather than look to evolution for how God created, I believe that each type of plant and animal was specially created by God and that the creation days in Genesis were long periods of time, rather than 24 hour days. For a good resource on this view, check out the Reasons to Believe web site. You may be interested in a book they published on human origins called Who Was Adam.

 

 

 

Regarding evolution, I think there is evidence for what they sometimes call micro evolution, which is small changes in a living thing over time, such as finch beaks getting larger or smaller or retrovirus mutations. However, I don't agree that there is good evidence for macro evolution, where you get the development of more complex creatures over time, such as dinosaurs developing into birds. The evolutionary community likes to make people think there is evidence for this, but it simply isn't true, in my opinion.

 

On this forum, just as in Christianity historically, there are different ways of understanding the Genesis creation account. I will say that I think theistic evolution is an error that leads to theological difficulties. Regarding the other views, of which there are several, I am totally "live and let live" about them, I think the issue is something Christians can come to different conclusions about.

 

God bless you as you think about these things.

Why can't "Christians " just follow the facts as clearly written in Holy Writ. " God spoke everything into existence " . There are no indications that He spoke the entire universe into existence within a specific time frame and it materialized from there . We have ," And He was before all things ,and by Him all things consist ". Col.1:17 . In other words all things were created by Him and all things are held together by Him.     M

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Raising the dead horse here....

 

Genesis is history and there are solid factual evidences to support the historical picture that Genesis provides, in addition from it being the word of God.

I might suggest watching "Is Genesis History?" available on Netflix, Amazon Prime if you are indeed curious.

 

At the end of the day, modern acceptance of Darwin's theories has eroded (pun intended) significantly. Missing are the fossil records of the critters that demonstrate transition from one kind to the next, not just for humans, but for all species. That no such evidence has been found in the fossil record showing a record of transition from one kind to the next should be very disturbing for anyone claiming to uphold scientific credentials. And it's this hole that is all too often conveniently quieted in most texts and struck from the classroom lectures. Darwinism is not so much a scientific theory as it is humanistic dogma.

 

If you buy the theory of evolution, you must also accept:

 

* Everything sprung from nothing by the power of nothing

* Order came from disorder without creative influence (which would speak to a creative, organized mind)

* The law of Thermodynamics can be turned on an off at will

* God is a liar and His word can't be trusted

 

Those proponents of evolution and subscribing to the idea that everything sprang out of nothing by itself are holding onto the true definition of blind faith. They wave the magic wand of chance, chanting the mantra of billions of years and mix in some sophistry to convince the young mind that they're right and God is wrong. 

 

The same can be said for those who would use "chance" and the numbers game (billions and billions) to declare that there are other civilizations out in the galaxy. Those numbers sound convincing, and may sway some -- but my bible says the entire creation is cursed and that God sent His *only* Son to die for our sins. That tells me something very hard to swallow -- that we are unique and so very significant in God's eyes that all of His divine attention is upon his creation of man. Man in His image, bearing His traits and more, the object of His love.

 

That we would, amidst the utter enormity of the universe extends far beyond our mortal grasp, be the center of God's attention and affections, speaks volumes about our worth in His eyes. It flies in the face of humanism and at least to this Christian, shows that despite my own failings and faults, the God that created everything - so immense, so powerful, so utterly incomprehensible, would love a wretch like me brings me to debased humility and awe. The heavens as we have peeked at are beyond amazing, but it is here, this tiny ball of dirt that God sent His only Son to die for the sins of his crowning creation - mankind.

 

So, nope, I don't buy the idea that everything created itself out of nothing and that happenstance rules. There is a beautiful harmony and creative mind behind everything we are surrounded by and are.

 

Cheers,

 

-CC

 

 

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On 12/6/2017 at 7:41 PM, Chasinglight said:

Personally, I am Christian, but I believe in evolution. All the facts in science point towards that. What do others think?

Hi CL,

I believe that evolution is possible within a species....for whatever reason, but that it would take at least hundreds of thousands of years, and for very small changes.

 

I don't believe that one form of life could become a different form of life.

 

You believe science points to evolution...I don't see how.

How did animals see before it was fully formed?

How could they function if they couldn't see?

And how come no animal is evolving right now and for the past 5 or 6 thousand years since we've been privy to history...albeit even in cave drawings.

 

As to Adam and Eve....History in the O.T. begins with Abraham.

We can't really be too sure about anything before that....

I believe there was a first man and a first woman and that God made them.

I'm not sure their name was Adam and Eve.

I also believe God made them good....so something happened.

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I think it is not unreasonable to assume that if evolution were to stand any chance, its first step MUST be possible. The possibility of that first step doesn't in any way prove the theory but if that first step were and impossibility, the remaining conjectures are without foundation.

 

Dr Tour is a synthetic organic chemist working in nanotechnology. If anyone is qualified to comment on this first step, I think he might be...

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Red Sky at Morning said:

I think it is not unreasonable to assume that if evolution were to stand any chance, its first step MUST be possible. The possibility of that first step doesn't in any way prove the theory but if that first step were and impossibility, the remaining conjectures are without foundation.

 

Dr Tour is a synthetic organic chemist working in nanotechnology. If anyone is qualified to comment on this first step, I think he might be...

 

https://youtu.be/-Gsa58Rm8Sk

Hi RS....

I can't see YouTube right now....will try again later.

What do you mean by the first step?

You mean the first cause??

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4 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

Hi RS....

I can't see YouTube right now....will try again later.

What do you mean by the first step?

You mean the first cause??

 

Dr Tour discusses with great intelligence the possibility of a viable living cell of (any sort) arising (with any timescale) from non-living compounds. Very good information.

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4 minutes ago, Red Sky at Morning said:

 

Dr Tour discusses with great intelligence the possibility of a viable living cell of (any sort) arising (with any timescale) from non-living compounds. Very good information.

I can't get YouTube thru your link....

Or with the URL...

Do you know the title of the talk?

I did get to Dr. Tour.

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1 minute ago, GodsGrace said:

I can't get YouTube thru your link....

Or with the URL...

Do you know the title of the talk?

I did get to Dr. Tour.

Let me help.  Try this:

 

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1 hour ago, GodsGrace said:

I believe that evolution is possible within a species....for whatever reason

Isn't evolution without reason?

 

34 minutes ago, Red Sky at Morning said:

Dr Tour is a synthetic organic chemist working in nanotechnology. If anyone is qualified to comment on this first step, I think he might be...

It's like asking an organic farmer if they can create an unintelligent flower from nothing.  I mean all you need is some dirt and a seed right?

 

Reminds me of a joke where a scientist dies and meets God. God asks the scientist what have you done in life? The scientist says we've created a flower from nothing. God asks, please replicate the process so that I may observe. The scientist says, we first place some dirt... . God interrupts and says, "get your own dirt".

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