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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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Hidden Manna

Love fulfills the law

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There are many debates these days about what law or commandments we are to follow. The simple answer is Love. In Matthew 22:37-40; “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

 

So basically if your nail is not fastened in that sure place, then your religion is just in vain and will also eventually fail and fall to the ground. It is written in James 2:8; “If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:” And also here in Galatians 5:14; “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.”

 

We are told in Romans 13:8-10; “Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”

 

But how can we love as we should, because we by our first nature are evil. Just as it is written “the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;” Jesus also said in Mark 10:18 that there is none that is good, but One, and that is God. So how do we love as we should love? The only way we can love, as we should love, is to have the Love of God dwelling in us.

 

Jesus gave us a new commandment in John 13:34; “A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” Many don’t understand why Jesus said it was a “new” commandment, as it was also written in the Old Testament to love your neighbor. But Jesus said to love one another “as I have loved you.”

 

Again how can we love as Jesus loved us? It is only accomplished by the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts by way of the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Jesus said in John 17:26; “And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.” And so that is how we love, as He loved; and thereby are we also loved of the Father. And if Christ truly dwells in your hearts by faith; then you shall also be rooted and grounded in His love.

 

For it is not our own works, or our own righteousness that reconciles us back to God, but the righteousness of Christ working in us by faith; and a faith which also works by love. Philippians 3:9; “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

 

Peace and God bless, Mark

 

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Peace to you in Christ Hidden Manna:RpS_wink:

 

I agree with William that was very nice, edifying post Bro

 

God richly bless you

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Yes love is the greatest. We are to love one another as Christ loved us. This is not proclaimed enough today. This is how others know we are Christians. It was said of the early Christians Behold how they love one another. Martin Luther put it well when we said That we should do nothing in life that is not needful for our neighbor. This is how we show love.

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Hi! If you haven't run into me yet, I'm Jewish. So obviously, I'm going to relate to this post as a Jew. The crucial verse for us on this matter is Deuteronomy 4:2.

 

> There are many debates these days about what law or commandments we are to follow. The simple answer is Love. In Matthew 22:37-40; “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

 

Here, Jesus sorta follows a well-established rabbinic opinion, namely, of Hillel.

 

> So basically if your nail is not fastened in that sure place, then your religion is just in vain and will also eventually fail and fall to the ground.

 

Is this the same as saying that if your religion lacks a foundation, then it's just stuff you do which is ultimately meaningless?

 

> But how can we love as we should, because we by our first nature are evil. Just as it is written “the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;”

 

Isn't this the purpose of the law? Love is a great first principle, but now how will that be implemented in the messy world of flesh and blood? Hence, the law.

 

Another question: why is evil a problem for love? If you told me that we were by nature hateful, then I would understand -- love... hate... opposites. And if you were to tell me that the fundamental principle is goodness, then I would understand why being by nature evil is a problem. But how exactly are evil and love related?

 

> Jesus gave us a new commandment in John 13:34; “A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” Many don’t understand why Jesus said it was a “new” commandment, as it was also written in the Old Testament to love your neighbor. But Jesus said to love one another “as I have loved you.”

 

This is fascinating. It may also be grounds for capital punishment. See Deuteronomy 4:2 and 13:2-19.

 

> Again how can we love as Jesus loved us? It is only accomplished by the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts by way of the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Jesus said in John 17:26; “And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.” And so that is how we love, as He loved; and thereby are we also loved of the Father. And if Christ truly dwells in your hearts by faith; then you shall also be rooted and grounded in His love.

 

So it seems like you're saying that the foundation on which the whole law stands is love, but that the evil of man makes that love impossible, but that the Holy Ghost allows those whom Jesus loves to fulfill Jesus' command "...as I have loved you." Is that right?

 

The logical conclusion seems then to be that with that love "as I have loved you", you are able to actually live according to the law with the proper nail, or foundation, of love.

 

But then it seems that love isn't just a first principle of the law, but its telos. At least that's what I gathered from your next words:

> For it is not our own works, or our own righteousness that reconciles us back to God, but the righteousness of Christ working in us by faith; and a faith which also works by love. Philippians 3:9; “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through thefaith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

 

Now we have two new terms, righteousness and faith. How do they fit in?

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There is no way we can love God the way He loves us, neiter can a new born baby love his parents the way the parents love him. But that' okay. It doesn' change the fact or the depth of the parent's love. The child can give nothing back, nor repay any of it, but the parents don' give their love as an investment for return. They just love.

 

We love, because He first loved us. If we knew how much He loves us, loving Him and others would be no problem. And not sinning againt our neighbors would never be an issue. It would be easy to not still from someone you love. Keeping the laws of God would be so easy not because we are so holy, but because we love so much.

 

The problem in the church is that too many Christians are not established in His love. They have no idea just how much He loves each one of them personally. Ephesians talks about the breat, height width and depth of His love and how we should be established in that love, and when we are, we are filled with the fullness of God.

 

However, too many Christians do love others the way they believe they are loved by Christ. Which is a very shallow and conditional love. They are easily offended, angered, frustrated. Because that is how they see Jesus's love for them. So, that is all they know of love and that's what they got to give. You can't give what you don' have.

 

Maany of them also believe their righteousness is hanging in the wind and that God is sitting up there just waiting for them to mess up. He's not. He's like that annoying dad at his son's football game cheering his son on as if he is the best player on the team, even hough he's the worst in the league.

our righteousness is a gift and it' not about us earning it. If we would just rest in the fact that God said we ARE righteous, so we are righteous, and quit trying to earn it, or keep it, much of that frustration would just melt away.

God loves us just the same as He loves Jesus, John 17:23, and not one of us deserves it. He loves us because that is Who He Is, not because of who we are. He is just being true to His nature, like the parents of a new born baby.

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So it seems like you're saying that the foundation on which the whole law stands is love, but that the evil of man makes that love impossible, but that the Holy Ghost allows those whom Jesus loves to fulfill Jesus' command "...as I have loved you." Is that right?

 

The logical conclusion seems then to be that with that love "as I have loved you", you are able to actually live according to the law with the proper nail, or foundation, of love

Hello Meir-Simchah. You said you are a Jew, and so you say you are going to relate to this post as a Jew. I would have to ask you then, are you a believer in Jesus being the Christ of God? And also are you a believer in the New Testament scriptures or not? Because in Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Gentile. (Galatians 3:28)

 

But let me try to answer some of your questions posted in the quote above. Christ is the foundation on which the whole house is built, Christ being the very Word of God. God said in the OT if you love Him you will keep His commandments, Jesus said the same. But like I said in my OP, man being first born of the flesh and evil by nature could not keep the whole law; therefore by the law no flesh shall be justified in the sight of God. The law was weak because of mans fleshy sin nature...

 

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

 

Think about this, the world is full of laws, rules and regulations, yet the whole world is still full of wickedness. So all the laws written in books will never make the world or even a single man righteous; as righteousness has to do with the spirit within the man, and is a condition of the heart. So man being firstborn of the flesh, and having a sin nature from birth was the problem that kept men from keeping the righteousness of the law, which is based on love. And that is why we must be born again of the Spirit of God, as Jesus also taught. We must be given a new heart and a new spirit in order that we can love as Jesus loved. This is the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts by way of the Holy Spirit.

 

The New Covenant of writing the words of God in our hearts and minds by the Spirit was spoken of by the OT prophets, and was also confirmed by the apostles of the Lord. And it is by the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us that we are made righteous; as God is our Maker.

 

This prophecy of being given a new heart and new spirit by God is shown here....

 

Ezekiel 11:19

And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

 

Ezekiel 18:31

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

Ezekiel 36:26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

Romans 7:6

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

2 Corinthians 3:6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

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G'day Meir-Simchah,

 

Here, Jesus sorta follows a well-established rabbinic opinion, namely, of Hillel.

 

Interesting, I see it as following the Shema:

 

Shema (“hear”) is the Hebrew word that begins the most important prayer in Judaism. It is found in Deuteronomy 6:4, which begins with the command to “Hear.” The whole Shema prayer, which includes verses 4-9, is spoken daily in the Jewish tradition:

 

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

 

Now we have two new terms, righteousness and faith. How do they fit in?

 

Many people do not realize that to be loving is a command of the Old Testament Law:

  • Deuteronomy 6:5, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."
  • Leviticus 19:18, "You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD."

Both of these passages are quoted by Jesus in Matt. 22:37 and Matt. 22:39, respectively.

  • Matthew 22:37-39 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

We are undoubtedly supposed to love, but keeping the Old Testament command to love God and love your neighbor is not good enough for us to get to heaven. If it was possible to get to heaven by being good, by being loving, then Christ would not have needed to die. Paul said,

  • Galatians 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly,".

And again,

  • Galatians 3:21 "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law,".

Paul clearly tells us that we cannot obtain the righteousness that we need by keeping the Law, which includes loving God and loving your neighbor. So, you cannot love your way into heaven.

 

We have to understand that we are sinners and there's nothing we can do that will be good enough before God

  • Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
  • Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If there were, then Jesus didn't need to die. But Jesus who is God in flesh John 1:1, 14 died on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

  • John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
  • John 1:14 from the Father, full of grace and truth.[a]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son
  • 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Now I would remind you, brothers,[a] of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

That is the gospel message. By trusting in Christ and believing in the gospel, we are declared right before God by faith Romans 4:1-5; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8-9.

  • Romans 4:1-5 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
    him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,[a]And to the one who does not work but believes in5
  • Romans 5:1 have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. [a]Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we
  • Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

In other words, when we receive Christ by faith John 1:12, the righteousness of God is given to us Philippians 3:9.

  • John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
  • Philippians 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

This is called justification. Justification is a legal standing before God. It means that the one who has trusted in Christ by faith, is now declared legally righteous according to the law. Since the law includes loving God and loving our neighbors, those parts of the law must be fulfilled perfectly. It was Jesus who fulfilled the law without failure. So, we receive by faith what Christ did - which includes loving God and loving our neighbor. Therefore, everything we need is found in Jesus.

 

For more on Justification:

 

  • Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

He [Martin Luther] says, “Here in it,” in the gospel, “the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, ‘the just shall live by faith.’” A verse taken from the book of Habakkuk in the Old Testament that is cited three times in the New Testament. As Luther would stop short and say, “What does this mean, that there’s this righteousness that is by faith, and from faith to faith? What does it mean that the righteous shall live by faith?” Which again as I said was the thematic verse for the whole exposition of the gospel that Paul sets forth here in the book of Romans. And so, the lights came on for Luther. And he began to understand that what Paul was speaking of here was a righteousness that God in His grace was making available to those who would receive it passively, not those who would achieve it actively, but that would receive it by faith, and by which a person could be reconciled to a holy and righteous God.

 

Now there was a linguistic trick that was going on here too. And it was this, that the Latin word for justification that was used at this time in church history was—and it’s the word from which we get the English word justification—the Latin word justificare. And it came from the Roman judicial system. And the term justificare is made up of the word justus, which is justice or righteousness, and the verb, the infinitive facare, which means to make. And so, the Latin fathers understood the doctrine of justification is what happens when God, through the sacraments of the church and elsewhere, make unrighteous people righteous.

 

But Luther was looking now at the Greek word that was in the New Testament, not the Latin word. The word dikaios, dikaiosune, which didn’t mean to make righteous, but rather to regard as righteous, to count as righteous, to declare as righteous. And this was the moment of awakening for Luther. He said, “You mean, here Paul is not talking about the righteousness by which God Himself is righteous, but a righteousness that God gives freely by His grace to people who don’t have righteousness of their own.”

 

And so Luther said, “Woa, you mean the righteousness by which I will be saved, is not mine?” It’s what he called a justitia alienum, an alien righteousness; a righteousness that belongs properly to somebody else. It’s a righteousness that is extra nos, outside of us. Namely, the righteousness of Christ. And Luther said, “When I discovered that, I was born again of the Holy Ghost. And the doors of paradise swung open, and I walked through.” - https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...nd-romans-1-17

 

God bless,

William

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@Hidden Manna @William thank you! Your responses are very helpful! I need to think further about this.

 

But quickly, to answer Hidden Manna's question, no, I do not believe that Jesus is and was the messiah. (If you're interested, I've talked about why over here: https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-ministries-christian-only/missions-evangelism/28677-a-muslim-on-the-gospel.)

 

Now...

We are undoubtedly supposed to love, but keeping the Old Testament command to love God and love your neighbor is not good enough for us to get to heaven. If it was possible to get to heaven by being good, by being loving, then Christ would not have needed to die.

Which to me begs the question, why? And you immediately gave an answer:

 

Paul said,

  • Galatians 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly,".

And again,

  • Galatians 3:21 "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law,".

Paul clearly tells us that we cannot obtain the righteousness that we need by keeping the Law, which includes loving God and loving your neighbor. So, you cannot love your way into heaven.

 

Your reading of Gal 3:21 is interesting because, in light of Hidden Manna's OP, I would have read love and law as contrasting with one another. That's not how Jews read it at all, but that's how I (very ignorantly, I suppose) thought Christians would read it. So your reading, in which love is part of the law, puts together the categories more like we do, and I didn't expect that.

 

Hidden Manna, is this something you disagree with?

 

Gal 2:21 falls back into (what sounds to me like) circular reasoning (this came up in the thread with Sue). It isn't if you take the NT as granted. But if you're me looking at the NT wondering, well, where did Jesus, Paul, et al get that from? then it looks a bit like one of Escher's beautiful drawings where everything is rests on everything else. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/Escher_Waterfall.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/DrawingHands.jpg/300px-DrawingHands.jpg

 

Re wondering where the NT got various ideas from... Yes, you're correct, it's a quote from Shema. I mentioned Hillel because he is the paradigmatic case of finding one principle for the whole law, and his principle has to do with not being hateful. Rebbi Akiva may be a better example; he he cites Leviticus 19:18. And very interestingly, "the righteous man lives on his faith" is another candidate for a fundamental principle grounding the law. (These are all discussions in the Talmud.)

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Your reading of Gal 3:21 is interesting because, in light of Hidden Manna's OP, I would have read love and law as contrasting with one another. That's not how Jews read it at all, but that's how I (very ignorantly, I suppose) thought Christians would read it. So your reading, in which love is part of the law, puts together the categories more like we do, and I didn't expect that.

 

Hidden Manna, is this something you disagree with?

 

I think what you may be misunderstanding is whose love it is, and whose righteousness it is that causes us to walk the path of righteousness. Notice it is God's grace that gives us faith as a gift in Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

 

 

Also notice it is God's love and God's righteousness that is given to us by the gift of the Holy Spirit...

 

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

 

So you see it is not our own love and our own righteousness that causes to walk in love and in righteousness, but it is God's love and Christ's righteousness dwelling in us by the gift of the Spirit that causes us to walk in righteousness.

 

Jesus Christ is shown as being the righteousness of God in scripture, and Jesus came preaching that we should seek God's righteousness....

 

Matthew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

 

Again, not our own righteousness, but God's Righteousness...

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 3:26 "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

 

Again notice God's righteousness is a gift....

 

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

 

And Christ working in us by the Spirit of God is now our righteousness....

 

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

 

 

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

So the grace of God, the love of God, and the righteousness of God is given to us by the faith of Christ, so we can then walk as Christ walked.

 

 

I wrote this study on God's righteousness which may help you understand....https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/morality-and-laws/56781-the-righteousness-of-god

Peace and God bless

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Your reading of Gal 3:21 is interesting because, in light of Hidden Manna's OP, I would have read love and law as contrasting with one another. That's not how Jews read it at all, but that's how I (very ignorantly, I suppose) thought Christians would read it. So your reading, in which love is part of the law, puts together the categories more like we do, and I didn't expect that.

 

Hidden Manna, is this something you disagree with?

 

I think what you may be misunderstanding is whose love it is, and whose righteousness it is that causes us to walk the path of righteousness. Notice it is God's grace that gives us faith as a gift in Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

 

 

Also notice it is God's love and God's righteousness that is given to us by the gift of the Holy Spirit...

 

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

 

So you see it is not our own love and our own righteousness that causes to walk in love and in righteousness, but it is God's love and Christ's righteousness dwelling in us by the gift of the Spirit that causes us to walk in righteousness.

 

Jesus Christ is shown as being the righteousness of God in scripture, and Jesus came preaching that we should seek God's righteousness....

 

Matthew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

 

Again, not our own righteousness, but God's Righteousness...

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 3:26 "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

 

Again notice God's righteousness is a gift....

 

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

 

And Christ working in us by the Spirit of God is now our righteousness....

 

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

 

 

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

So the grace of God, the love of God, and the righteousness of God is given to us by the faith of Christ, so we can then walk as Christ walked.

 

 

I wrote this study on God's righteousness which may help you understand....https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/morality-and-laws/56781-the-righteousness-of-god

Peace and God bless

You said that His righteousness was given to us as a free gift (this I believe whole heartedly) so that we can walk as Christ walked (this I can't seem to find scripture for, esp if you're referring to walking a sinless life and not referring to healing the sick, raising the dead casting out demons, cleansing the lepers Because He walked that out also and He commanded us to do so).

 

I'd also like to add to what you wrote Hebrews 5:13 that understanding righteousness, who is righteous who isn't and how to become righteous (as you pointed out so well), is what seperates the babes from the mature in spirit.

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Ransol commented

01-24-2018, 10:12 AM

 

 

You said that His righteousness was given to us as a free gift (this I believe whole heartedly) so that we can walk as Christ walked (this I can't seem to find scripture for,....

 

 

Here is the verse I had in mind.....1 John 2:6 “He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

 

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Ransol commented

01-24-2018, 10:12 AM

 

 

You said that His righteousness was given to us as a free gift (this I believe whole heartedly) so that we can walk as Christ walked (this I can't seem to find scripture for,....

 

 

Here is the verse I had in mind.....1 John 2:6 “He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

Yes, but what does it mean to walk as He walked? Healing the sick, or without sin,or both, neither, or something else?

 

I don't believe he's talking about being sinless, because we can't. That's why we need Him in the first place.

 

Either way, walking as He walked--i don't believe--is an eternal life issue. He said that anyone who believes in Him will have eternal life. However, if we walk in the light as He is in the light, He forgives all our sins. Maybe that's what it means to walk as He walked, simply walking "in Him". I don't know.

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The law came by Moses, Grace and truth come by Christ Jesus, and Paul points out that sin shall not have dominion over us under his grace. Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. So I probably dont get why it should be considered acceptable that sin should have dominion over us under grace . Since we are not under law but under grace (under which sin would have no dominion) even as we are told not to let sin reign in our mortal body, that we should obey it in the lusts thereof. And also in respects to our walk he says, Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. So walk by one and you will not be fulfilling the other. Considering our walk again, he also says in Ephes 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. As we know God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. So if we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. Jesus said, John 8:12 I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. But we were in darkness sure even as it says here in Ephes 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light. Whereas in 1 John 1;6 he says, If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. No one can say they have not sinned for the scriptures state all have sinned, Paul says dont obey sin in your members so I cannot see how one can be without sin, but when it comes to grace sin shall not have dominion over us. As Jesus said in John 8:34 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Paul also speaks of being servants of sin beginning in Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. He also said, For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. You can see the progression from the one chapter into the next how he speaks and according to what like when he says, "I speak as a man" on these sorts of things.

 

That would make for a decent topic by itself, thats one of my favorites

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The law came by Moses, Grace and truth come by Christ Jesus, and Paul points out that sin shall not have dominion over us under his grace. Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. So I probably dont get why it should be considered acceptable that sin should have dominion over us under grace . Since we are not under law but under grace (under which sin would have no dominion) even as we are told not to let sin reign in our mortal body, that we should obey it in the lusts thereof. And also in respects to our walk he says, Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. So walk by one and you will not be fulfilling the other. Considering our walk again, he also says in Ephes 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. As we know God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. So if we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. Jesus said, John 8:12 I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. But we were in darkness sure even as it says here in Ephes 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light. Whereas in 1 John 1;6 he says, If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. No one can say they have not sinned for the scriptures state all have sinned, Paul says dont obey sin in your members so I cannot see how one can be without sin, but when it comes to grace sin shall not have dominion over us. As Jesus said in John 8:34 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Paul also speaks of being servants of sin beginning in Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. He also said, For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. You can see the progression from the one chapter into the next how he speaks and according to what like when he says, "I speak as a man" on these sorts of things.

 

That would make for a decent topic by itself, thats one of my favorites

The reason Christians are still under the power of sin is because they ARE STILL holding themseves accountable to the law: the 10 Commandments. This not only causes us to sin more, but it a also keeps us under the curse of the law--sickness, disease, poverty, distress, depression, and on and on.

 

Christians are still trying to please God with their actions. When they mess up, they try to do enough good to make up for their short comings. This is OT way of pleasing God. They don't have a clue that God is already pleased with them because they are In Christ which only happens by faith.

 

Paul called the 10 Commandments the ministry of death and condemnation 2 Corinthians 3:6-11. The law is the knowledge of sin, hey so was the forbidden fruit and God say NOT TO EAT OF IT. Still, Christians keep going back to that as if that will make or maintain their Holiness. We should all just rest in the fact that in Christ, we are righteous before God. Righteous with His righteousness and not our own.

 

The law is still a very valid covenant and we can choose that one if we wish: it should lead us to the point that we know we need a savior. However, Jesus warned about mixing the two covenants, it's like mixing old wineskins and new wine, or mixing cold and hot getting lukewarm. Don't do it, it will leave us with nothing.

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If a person is truly born again of God's Spirit and is made righteous by the grace of God in Jesus Christ, then they will no longer be serving sin and still walking in unrighteousness. You are either a servant of sin or a servant of righteousness,you cannot serve 2 masters. Jesus said a servant of sin abides not in the house forever, just as Paul said unrighteousness shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

So even though we are under grace and not under the law, we are also not under the power of sin; to serve it with the lusts thereof. By spiritual rebirth through Jesus Christ we are now made dead to sin and to serving sin, and are now made alive to righteousness by spiritual rebirth in Christ; so that we can now worship and serve God by walking in the Spirit and serving righteousness.

 

[h=1]Romans 6:1-7 (KJV)[/h] 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

 

 

 

 

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If we are dead to sin, how can we live any longer there in? How can we break a law that we dont have? We can't .

 

Paul addressed these Christians who started out in faith then were trying to be made perfect by the works of the law. They were mixing the two covenants. Must don't do that.

 

Going back under the law is what it means to fall from grace Galatians 5:4 and once you serve the law, you are responsible to keep all of it without fail. The righteous will walk by faith, those under the law MUST continue in them. If you are serving the law in the slightest, you are not of faith but of works. Choosing the law you'e made your choice and Christ has become of no effect to you. You can' serve in both covenants.

 

this is what dividing the Word of Truth is. Dividing what is true for those under the law, and what is true for those under grace. Don' mix them, it only leads to confusion. If we choose the law of works, we ARE alienated from Christ, because the Grace He offers only happens by faith when we cease from our works Hebrews 4:10 and this can be a very difficult thing to do esp. after living our hole lives under the law, then to suddenly stop trying to earn righteousness but just accept it as a free gift and just rest in the fact that God says youre perfect? Crazy, but that is what Hebrews 4:11 is telling us.

 

the law was never given to make anyone Holy, that's why there were sacrifices. Law only shows us where we are lacking. In Christ, we are not lacking anything.

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Being made free from sin is not about the law of Moses,(as the law is not sin) it is about being made free from that sin nature of the flesh, which was working in mankind even before the law of Moses. That was the enmity that was shown in the beginning between the nature of the beast (serpent); which is a sin nature, and between the divine nature of God's Spirit.

 

When sin entered into man and into the world man became servants of sin, which is the Devils desire; and thus as God said, sin would rule over man. This is what Paul showed when he said sin has reigned unto Death since Adam. So in order for mankind to be made free from this bondage of sin Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, putting away that sin nature in us by His own death, by this Jesus condemned sin in the flesh.

 

And that is what Paul was showing in our old man of sin being crucified with Christ, and the putting off that old man sin nature, and then being raised up a new man renewed in the image of God's Son Jesus Christ.

 

[h=1]Romans 6:11-23(KJV)[/h] 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

 

 

 

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Here is an easy way to look at it.... [h=1]Romans 5:19(KJV)[/h] 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

The above verse shows the 2 natures, the first is flesh in Adam vs. the nature of God's Spirit in Christ.

 

We did not make ourselves, just as we do not give birth to ourselves. So if we are firstborn of the flesh in Adam we are also born into that sin nature. This is why we must be born again.

But if we did not make ourselves the first time, nor give birth to ourselves the first time, then why think we can give birth or make ourselves the second time. We can't.

 

Jesus said either make the tree good and his fruit good, or else make the tree evil and his fruit evil; for a tree is known by his fruit. So who makes trees? The trees don't make themselves, and so we like trees are made by our Maker.

 

So like trees, if you are made a sinner in Adam you will produce sinful fruit unto death. But if you are made the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ you will also produce righteous fruit unto Life. For the tree is known by his fruit.

 

 

 

 

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Here is an easy way to look at it.... [h=1]Romans 5:19(KJV)[/h] 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

The above verse shows the 2 natures, the first is flesh in Adam vs. the nature of God's Spirit in Christ.

 

We did not make ourselves, just as we do not give birth to ourselves. So if we are firstborn of the flesh in Adam we are also born into that sin nature. This is why we must be born again.

But if we did not make ourselves the first time, nor give birth to ourselves the first time, then why think we can give birth or make ourselves the second time. We can't.

 

Jesus said either make the tree good and his fruit good, or else make the tree evil and his fruit evil; for a tree is known by his fruit. So who makes trees? The trees don't make themselves, and so we like trees are made by our Maker.

 

So like trees, if you are made a sinner in Adam you will produce sinful fruit unto death. But if you are made the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ you will also produce righteous fruit unto Life. For the tree is known by his fruit.

 

 

 

Yes, but the point is that He makes us righteous with His righteousness. We are not righteous by keeping the law, but if that is what we are trying to do, we are rejecting His righteousness for our own.

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Yes, the keeping of the law does not make us righteous, God does. But I would add to clarify, that keeping the commands of God is not unrighteousness. When we are born again of the Spirit the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us. And the righteousness of the law goes back to the point of the OP, which is Love fulfills the righteousness of the law.

 

[h=1]Romans 8:1-4(KJV)[/h] 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

 

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Yes, the keeping of the law does not make us righteous, God does. But I would add to clarify, that keeping the commands of God is not unrighteousness. When we are born again of the Spirit the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us. And the righteousness of the law goes back to the point of the OP, which is Love fulfills the righteousness of the law.

 

[h=1]Romans 8:1-4(KJV)[/h] 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

I'm not sure what your saying, all you gave me is scripture that I'm very familiar with, but not your take on that scripture. So I'm not sure if we have a discussion or agreement.

If we are IN CHRIST , which only happens by faith in Christ, then sin has no effect on our right standing before God. We have eternal life just by believing in Christ as Messiah. We don't even get the credit for doing the sin. That's in Romans 7:16-17 & 20. We still get the credit for Jesus's righteousness. Sin is NOT imputed to us, we are blessed, and you can't curse what God has blessed.

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If you are truly in Christ then you won't keep on sinning. (1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18) Sin is never ok with God, as sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2, Hebrews 7:26) for in Him there is no darkness, and in Him there is no sin.( 1 John 1:5, 1 John 3:5)

 

So you have to be careful about these new wave grace doctrines which basically teach that the grace of God gives you a license to sin. That is what we are warned of in Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

Sin is not of faith, and if you are truly under God's grace, then sin shall not have dominion over your life.

 

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If you are truly in Christ then you won't keep on sinning. (1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18) Sin is never ok with God, as sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2, Hebrews 7:26) for in Him there is no darkness, and in Him there is no sin.( 1 John 1:5, 1 John 3:5)

 

So you have to be careful about these new wave grace doctrines which basically teach that the grace of God gives you a license to sin. That is what we are warned of in Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

Sin is not of faith, and if you are truly under God's grace, then sin shall not have dominion over your life.

Yes, the gospel is not for someone who wants to stay in their sin, that person needs the law. But the law, the 10 Commandments, makes the person who hates their sin, sin even more. The 10 commandments asre the strength of sin. I'm not saying it's okay to sin. I'm not. Sin is sin. But even in Christ, we all still sin. So, I'm sure that's not what 1 John is talking about. When we are in Christ we are not in sin, we are in perfection. But our flesh still does sin. But that sin is not imputed to us because there is no law. However, if we still cling to the law, sin IS IMPUTED to us.

 

The law won't help you to stop sinning, that's what Grace does. The law makes you sin even more. That's why Paul referred to it as the ministry of death and condemnation 2 Corinthians 3:6-11.

 

Sin is the transgression of the law, when there is no law, we are not guilty of breaking the law, so how can we Sin? I'm talking about believers in Christ, not those who don't believe. The reason so much of the Church is stuck in sin is because they are trying to keep the law to please God, or to attone for their own sins or whatever reason. They don't understand the power Grace gives them to overcome. Grace takes the desire away. The law stirs up the desire.

 

This is what I believe scripture is referring to when it talks about the great falling away from the faith: people are putting their trust in their flesh to overcome sin. But 1 John 5 clearly tells us that faith is how we overcome, not by walking in the flesh, being mindful of the flesh (carnally minded).

 

Remember, too that Paul was wrongfully accused of saying that we should sin more that Grace would come. Romans 3:8 people will always try to pervert the amazingly great things that God gives us. That doesn't mean we should avoid it.

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Sin is the transgression of the law, when there is no law, we are not guilty of breaking the law, so how can we Sin?

 

You need to be careful here because some of your posts sound like a man made doctrine called Antinomianism, which is "The doctrine or belief that the Gospel frees Christians from required obedience to any law,"

 

 

Sin is also defined by unrighteousness, as all unrighteousness is sin.(Romans 6:13,1 John 5:17) And we are told the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.(1 Corinthians 6:9)

 

Romans 1:18

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

 

Romans 2:8

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

 

2 Thessalonians 2:12

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

God's word's are the truth,and if you abide in Christ you will also abide in His words. Also by God's Word and words all men shall be judged, for the Father has committed all judgment unto His Son.(John 5:22)

 

 

2 John 1:9

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 

Matthew 5:19

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

Again the greatest commandment is to Love the Lord thy God.....

John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

But either with the law, or without the law, all men shall be Judged by God's Word....

 

Romans 2:5-16(KJV) 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

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