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Guppy

The Catholic church is not Babylon

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Guppy

In another thread, 6 reasons Catholics and protestants can never unite.

 

The article states that the church of Rome is Babylon

 

In the book of Revelation, the Church of Rome is called the Whore of Babylon, as the Jewish Church was often called a whore when she veered off into idolatry. The Church of Rome is the Beast of Revelation 13.

 

The Catholic church is not called the Whore of Babylon in Revelation, this is his belief. He is also calling the beast in Revelation 13 Rome. Babylon the great and the beast are two different symbols. Babylon the great rides the beast. The beast will hate Babylon

Rev 17:16

The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

The beast and Babylon the great are two different symbols. One, the beast will hate the other, Babylon and destroy her.

 

Rev !8:24 in my opinion, show that Babylon the great can not be a kingdom or a country or a place

 

Rev 18:24

In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

 

Is the Catholic church responsible for the death of the prophets and of Gods holy people and of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.?

Is the Catholic church responsible for the death of Able? .What caused Cain to kill his brother? Pride , envy, jealousy , all of the above. It was sin

 

Babylon the Great is our sinful world, we are not part of this world. (the elect)

Rev 17:15

Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages..

Babylon the great sits in waters which are people, nations and languages. Its the earth and all who are not called, the elect.

 

 

What rules over those who are not saved? Their sinful desires

 

rev 17:18

The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

 

Sin rules over the kings of the earth and all people, that is why you have God calling out, come out from her.

He is not calling people out of the Catholic church, he is calling his people out of a sinful world

Rev 18 4

Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “ ‘Come out of her, my people,’ so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

Who are going to receive Gods plagues? All that are not marked with the Holy Spirit

 

Rome is well-known as the City on Seven Hills. Thus, the Holy Ghost makes it evident that the Church of Rome is what is spoken of in Revelation. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth (Rev 17:9).

 

I understand this is well known, but as I tried to point out, Babylon the great cant be a singular place, but it can be the world. A sinful world

Maybe its the 7 summits, the highest mountains on each of the 7 continents.

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LastDaze

JERUSALEM: THE "GREAT CITY" OF REVELATION

 

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

 

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

 

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

 

Yet, Jerusalem was also famous for becoming The Harlot City -- an unfaithful spouse to her King (Isa 1:21; Jer 3:6-10; Ez 16:37-39). She had become "drunk with the blood of the saints" (Rev 17:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16) as Christ had prophesied she would (Mt 23:33-37; Lk 11:50-51).

 

Sadly, the "great city," Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), had fallen, and had become the habitation of demons and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (Rev 18:2). The Queen City Jerusalem (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1), which had been great among the nations (Lam 1:1), had become a widow (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1). And She, having become an unfaithful Harlot to God, was thus "burned with fire" (Rev 18:8/17:16) as her covenant law demanded for her (Lev 21:9). The blood of all the apostles and prophets who she famously killed (Matt 23:33-36; Matt 21:34-39; Lk 13:33; Acts 7:52; 1 Thess 2:15-16; Lk 11:47; Neh 9:26; 1 Ki 19:14) was avenged upon her (Matt 23:33-37; Rev 16:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16).

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DPMartin
JERUSALEM: THE "GREAT CITY" OF REVELATION

 

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

 

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

 

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

 

Yet, Jerusalem was also famous for becoming The Harlot City -- an unfaithful spouse to her King (Isa 1:21; Jer 3:6-10; Ez 16:37-39). She had become "drunk with the blood of the saints" (Rev 17:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16) as Christ had prophesied she would (Mt 23:33-37; Lk 11:50-51).

 

Sadly, the "great city," Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), had fallen, and had become the habitation of demons and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (Rev 18:2). The Queen City Jerusalem (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1), which had been great among the nations (Lam 1:1), had become a widow (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1). And She, having become an unfaithful Harlot to God, was thus "burned with fire" (Rev 18:8/17:16) as her covenant law demanded for her (Lev 21:9). The blood of all the apostles and prophets who she famously killed (Matt 23:33-36; Matt 21:34-39; Lk 13:33; Acts 7:52; 1 Thess 2:15-16; Lk 11:47; Neh 9:26; 1 Ki 19:14) was avenged upon her (Matt 23:33-37; Rev 16:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16).

 

everyone is always looking for the "symbolic" Babylon the daughter of Babylon is Rome the vision of Daniel says to Nebuchadrezzar that he was the head and the following empires after him, Cyrus, Alexzander the Great and then Rome (Caesar). hence Rome was the mix for the feet. so Rome was of Babylon. Jerusalem may be a harlot in the words of the Lord to the prophets, but certainly isn't Babylon. if the Lord means Jerusalem or Israel He doesn't mince words about it, does He?

 

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Guppy

Could someone answer this one scripture for me

 

Rev 18:24

In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

 

Is Jerusalem responsible for all that have been slaughter on earth??

 

Is Rome responsible for all the deaths of those slaughtered?

 

Its not symbolism all scripture needs to fit together

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DPMartin
Could someone answer this one scripture for me

 

Rev 18:24

In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

 

Is Jerusalem responsible for all that have been slaughter on earth??

 

Is Rome responsible for all the deaths of those slaughtered?

 

Its not symbolism all scripture needs to fit together

 

 

 

the romans are the ones who agreed to crucify Jesus on the cross knowing there was no wrong in Jesus, the romans nailed Jesus to the Cross and the made sure He hanged there until they where convinced He was dead. roman authorities put Peter and Paul to their death. Jews didn't do that. also its as common as dirt that the romans persecuted the Christians for over 250 years before 325 AD when Constantine established the church of Rome. it was public entertainment to feed Christians to the loins, Nero used to burn them on his porch for light while entertaining gests, he also blamed them for the burning of the city of Rome. Rome slaughtered many saints.

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atpollard
Could someone answer this one scripture for me

 

Rev 18:24

In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

 

Is Jerusalem responsible for all that have been slaughter on earth??

 

Is Rome responsible for all the deaths of those slaughtered?

 

Its not symbolism all scripture needs to fit together

It has to involve at least a little symbolism since a city never killed anyone. :)

It is no secret that I am no fan of eschatology ... I just can't figure out the symbolism and I find the passionate arguments pointless for living or spreading the Gospel. That said, I'd like to take a shot at presenting how BOTH and EITHER Jerusalem and Rome could be responsible the deaths of "all who have been slaughtered on the earth."

 

Jerusalem:

Obviously not the city, per se, but the Religious system that is centered on Jerusalem. God entrusted the truth to a Chosen People. They were not to hoard it for themselves but were called to be an example to the entire world. Time and time again they rejected the truth of God and killed the prophets that God sent to warn and correct them. Jesus himself said that the generation of Jews that rejected him were guilty of the blood from Abel to Zechariah (Luke 11:47-51). Since they had hidden the light given them for the world under a bushel (and buried the bushel in a tomb), they are also responsible for the world continuing to dwell in darkness.

 

Rome:

Rather than the Rome of the ancient empire, let's attempt to lay the charge at the feet of the Rome of the Roman Catholic Church. Like Jurusalem in the previous example, they were entrusted with the Truth of God to deliver to the whole earth. Like Jerusalem, they corrupted that truth. Like Jerusalem, God sent "reformers" to warn them and beg them to return to the Truth. Like Jerusalem, they murdered them. Jesus said he would draw "all men" to Him (John 12:32) but Jesus never meant that he would draw every single person on the earth to himself. He meant men from every tribe, tongue and nation. In the same way, the Roman Catholic Church has on its hands, the blood of men of every tribe, tongue and nation.

 

 

Now that I have placed the arguments into writing, perhaps it is both Jerusalem and Rome ... Each failed to deliver the Truth of God to the world in its own covenant and now share the guilt of their failure and the Prophets and Messengers they murdered. For me, this is just idle speculation. I have no clue.

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LastDaze

. if the Lord means Jerusalem or Israel He doesn't mince words about it, does He?

 

Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

 

Jesus was Crucified in Rome?

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DPMartin

 

Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

 

Jesus was Crucified in Rome?

 

does 11:8 say Babylon ? no it doesn't does it? where Jesus was hanged is one thing and who hanged Him is another isn't it? the facts: hanged in Jerusalem by the romans, it was roman authorities that crucified Christ in Jerusalem that was ruled by Rome. therefore a roman territory.

 

 

also note the scriptures specifically say "symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt" so the reader knows that the scriptures mean symbolically isn't that so? why doesn't it say the same of Babylon? the writer of the text isn't a moron that needs clarifying of his writings by people's assumptions reading it over 1900 years later.

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Just Mike

How many people have gone to hell because of the wickedness of the Roman Catholic church? Surly IMO the religions of Islam and the Roman Catholic relicion are headed by Satan.

 

 

justme

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Guppy
Does this mean everyone without exception in the entire world (and throughout time)? Or could it mean not only the slain "in the city of Rome", but of "all" those that have be been slain "throughout the empire"?

 

William, I am sure what John was thinking as these things were being revealed to him, but would God say world and mean Rome.

Scripture states all who have been slaughtered on the earth

 

To answer your question, that's exactly what it says and that is what I believe

 

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Guppy
How many people have gone to hell because of the wickedness of the Roman Catholic church? Surly IMO the religions of Islam and the Roman Catholic relicion are headed by Satan.

 

What sin is not of Satan?

All Sin is because of the fall and our sinful nature and we all know where our sinful nature came from

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Guppy
Now that I have placed the arguments into writing, perhaps it is both Jerusalem and Rome ... Each failed to deliver the Truth of God to the world in its own covenant and now share the guilt of their failure and the Prophets and Messengers they murdered. For me, this is just idle speculation. I have no clue.

 

When was Rome given the task of delivering the truth? We as individuals are given that burden, not a city or a country, but us as believers

 

Atpollard, why cant that scripture mean what it says

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atpollard
When was Rome given the task of delivering the truth? We as individuals are given that burden, not a city or a country, but us as believers

 

Atpollard, why cant that scripture mean what it says

It can, for all I care about Escatology.

Could you explain how the blood of all who have been slaughtered on the earth ended (ends) up in the ancient city of Babylon? :RpS_confused:

 

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Guppy
Could you explain how the blood of all who have been slaughtered on the earth ended (ends) up in the ancient city of Babylon? :RpS_confused:

 

One thing we all agree on here, is that Babylon the great in Revelation is symbolic. What we are discussing is symbolic for what.

 

In the opening post, I tried to make the point that I felt Babylon the great was the sinful world, not one country or one religion.

 

It is sin that is responsible, for all that have been slain on the earth. Historically I understand the evils of the roman empire and then of the Catholic church and I understand how and why it looks like Rome, but where is Babylon the great today? Is Rome killing the saints today? Maybe its radicle Islam or Isis. The point I am trying to make is that there has always been great wickedness in the world and that wickedness was there then and is now

 

God is calling come out of her my people. He is not calling us out of Rome, he is calling us out of our sinful lives. We are not of this world, God is calling out leave this sinful world (life)

 

 

 

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atpollard

@Guppy

I liked your explanation. It appeared to fit the facts better than any other I had heard. I am just not particularly adept at following prophecy. Sometimes I have trouble even after the angel comes and explains it in Scripture.

 

In my post above (#7), I was just taking a shot at how it COULD be Rome or Jerusalem ... which is the challenge you threw down.

I have no clue what Babylon the Great is in Revelation. For that matter, I have trouble with most of the symbolism in Revelation. I am pretty sure of one thing, though. When a dragon attempts to eat a woman and her child, Revelation is probably not 100% literal. :RpS_biggrin:

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ConfessionalLutheran

 

G'evening Guppy,

 

This is what you wrote:

  • In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
  • Is Jerusalem responsible for all that have been slaughter on earth??
  • Is Rome responsible for all the deaths of those slaughtered?
  • Its not symbolism all scripture needs to fit together

Lets address "all".

 

"In her" was found the blood of prophets and of saints. And of all that were slain upon the earth.

 

Does this mean everyone without exception in the entire world (and throughout time)? Or could it mean not only the slain "in the city of Rome", but of "all" those slain "throughout the empire"?

 

God bless,

William

 

One could argue, of course, that Babylon the Great is nothing more or less than the world's political and economic system, which can be traced to man's attempts to rule the world without God ( and thus ultimately traceable to the Ancient Serpent, or Satan) and that the slaughtered are God's people who have been martyred throughout the ages and all over the world. Is Rome or Jerusalem responsible for all the blood of God's people that have been spilled? No, but those cities are the sites of some of the bloodiest persecutions of the Church in her infancy. One might say that the persecutions had their jump off point from those two cities.

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Guppy

I agree with you historically, but is Rome Biblically Babylon the Great. I don't think so.

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LastDaze

 

does 11:8 say Babylon ? no it doesn't does it?

 

It Says the Great City. How Many "The Great City's" are there in Revelation?

Are they all great? are any Greater than another?

Or is every Reference to "The Great City" John makes in Revelation referring to The ONE Great city?

 

the writer of the text isn't a moron that needs clarifying of his writings by people's assumptions reading it over 1900 years later.

 

When Choosing who the morons are... the writer of the text or the Interpreters making assumptions 1900 years later.... my money is NOT on the writer.

 

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atpollard
When Choosing who the morons are... the writer of the text or the Interpreters making assumptions 1900 years later.... my money is NOT on the writer.

That's pretty funny. :RpS_laugh:

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LastDaze

 

I believe you're right. I think Revelation can have multiple applications as most Scriptures.

 

Should we then expect another Virgin Birth? another Crucifixion?

Was Calvary a mere type of some future greater sacrifice for sin?

 

Are you Building an Ark for the next flood?

 

Who gets to decide which scriptures get fulfiled again and again and again and again and which do not?

You? Me?

Billy Graham? The Pope?

 

No doubt they were written for those living then

Agreed.

 

now and well into the future.

Pastorally yes, prophetically, no.

 

I do not doubt that there will be an "epicenter" or final climatic ending to things which are to come shortly (at that time) and which have been seen, are, and are to come".

 

Well I doubt it. For Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

 

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LastDaze

 

Are you confusing having one correct meaning with multiple applications or significance?

I don't believe so

 

Do you think Revelation has no other application/significance to anyone else in other time periods?

 

As I said in my Post, Pastorally yes, Prophetically no.

 

The Story of Noah and the Flood has Pastoral application to all peoples of all times, but had prophetic significance to Noah's generation Alone, otherwise, you and I WOULD be building arks, as would have all peoples of all generations if it had ongoing PROPHETIC significance.

 

Or does Revelation have application/significance to not only a specific audience at one time but to varying audiences of different times?

 

As with the Flood, Revelation has PASTORAL significance to all peoples of all times, but had prophetic significance to one generation alone.

 

Now if you asked your question to someone like David in his time he might throw up to you Psalm 22 which is referring to himself but the other application or significance of the passage refers to Christ on the cross.

 

Right.

And I hope you would agree that the Cross is the terminus, and that Christ's cross work was not simply a type or shadow of some future, greater sacrifice for sin, and future, greater application of Psalm 22.

 

The Apostles applied an "OT Type>Messianic Fulfillment" Hermeneutic.

OT Types found their terminus in Messianic fulfimment.

 

There is no scripture that teaches that the Messianic fulfillments are in turn a mere "type" of some future, greater sacrifice and redemptive plan that keeps happening over and over and over in a greater and greater way...

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