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GraceOne

Is water Baptizm necessay for salvation?

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GraceOne

Is water Baptizm necessay for salvation?

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theophilus

In Acts 10 Peter was told by God to go to Cornelius and preach the gospel to him and those who were with him. While he was still preaching this happened:

 

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. (Acts 10:44-48 ESV)

 

The Holy Spirit fell on the people who were listening, showing that they were saved. It was only after this had happened that they were baptized in water.

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Sue D.

If water baptism was necessary for salvation, then the thief on the cross could not have been in Paradise with Jesus Christ that same day.

 

And baptism would have been included in the 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 passage. -- the Gospel in a nutshell.

 

However, water baptism // by immersion Is the outward expression of what has already taken place in our heart.

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truth3
If water baptism was necessary for salvation, then the thief on the cross could not have been in Paradise with Jesus Christ that same day.

 

Water baptism is necessary for salvation, for sure. The good thief was saved under the old law. The new law was established at Pentecost, in Acts chapter 1 and 2, when Jesus told the Apostles to stay in Jerusalem. Jesus was not in heaven i.e. paradise, on Good Friday. Jesus descended to the dead, who were in Abrahams bosom, waiting for Jesus to deliver them. All of these souls were saved under the old law.

 

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.

 

1 Peter 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

 

The understanding is, wherever Jesus is, there is paradise. Heaven cannot be paradise unless God is there. Jesus is paradise itself, the beatific vision of God.

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truth3

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

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Sue D.

 

 

The context of John 3:5 is that Nicodemus is asking Jesus how a person can be born Again. Does he enter into his mother's womb and be physically born again. Jesus responds that a person has to be born physically first and Then of the Spirit. The word used is born of 'water' meaning the bag of water that the baby has been developing in. Flesh gives birth to flesh and then the Spirit gives birth to our spirit.

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Sue D.
If water baptism was necessary for salvation, then the thief on the cross could not have been in Paradise with Jesus Christ that same day.

 

Water baptism is necessary for salvation, for sure. The good thief was saved under the old law. The new law was established at Pentecost, in Acts chapter 1 and 2, when Jesus told the Apostles to stay in Jerusalem. Jesus was not in heaven i.e. paradise, on Good Friday. Jesus descended to the dead, who were in Abrahams bosom, waiting for Jesus to deliver them. All of these souls were saved under the old law.

 

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.

 

1 Peter 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

 

The understanding is, wherever Jesus is, there is paradise. Heaven cannot be paradise unless God is there. Jesus is paradise itself, the beatific vision of God.

 

 

Everyone has always been saved the same way. Looking Towards the cross and accepting That -- living during the time Of the cross and accepting That -- and looking Back at the cross, which is what we do now.

 

No one in the Old Testament was saved through / by their good works. The Law was given to us to show that it was impossible to keep it all - all the time -- that 'we' Need a Savior. Old Testament animal sacrifices offered by the High Priest / the High Priest of the family // were required every year. It had to be a perfect animal -- no blemishes -- to be sacrificed to cover the sins of the family / people.

 

Abraham believed and it was counted as righteousness. Salvation has Always been heart belief. Looking at/ accepting the death, burial and bodily resurrection Jesus Christ as being all that's needed. Nothing more has ever been Required for complete salvation. Baptism is the outward testimony to other people as to what has already taken place in our heart.

 

The Holy Spirit came after Jesus Christ ascended back to heaven. Yes, the Day of Pentecost.

 

The Old Testament saints were waiting in Abraham's bosom , yes, until Jesus Christ descended to them and took them back up with Him.

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truth3

 

The context of John 3:5 is that Nicodemus is asking Jesus how a person can be born Again. Does he enter into his mother's womb and be physically born again. Jesus responds that a person has to be born physically first and Then of the Spirit. The word used is born of 'water' meaning the bag of water that the baby has been developing in. Flesh gives birth to flesh and then the Spirit gives birth to our spirit.

 

Wow, Sue, you are following your own ideas. A bag of water, really!?

 

Isaias 65:2 I have spread forth my hands all the day to an unbelieving people, who walk in a way that is not good after their own thoughts."

 

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth to a man right: and the ends thereof lead to death.

 

Corinthians 6:12 You are not straitened in us, but in your own bowels you are straitened.

 

Why did Jesus go through the whole process of going to see St. John the Baptist, so that He could be baptized? The answer is obvious, its rhetorical.

 

Matthew 3:13-17 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him. And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

 

 

 

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Sue D.

I've given birth to 4 kids -- they all came enclosed in a bag of water. That's a physical birth taking place. Your bio simply says you're a male -- not if you're married or not. If you've ever witnessed a birth - - of a human baby -- sometimes the Dr. has to break the bag of water -- sometimes it breaks on it's own as mine did 3 times -- one was a C-section. So, yes, a bag of water, Really ?!?!

 

WoW -- why don't you just pound me a little.

 

Jesus Christ was being baptized to start his public ministry. Jesus had come to this earth to minister to us as to His Father's existence.

 

Are you suggesting with your Scriptures that Jesus Christ had to be baptized to finish his own salvation process?!

 

The baptism was an example to us -- Jesus Christ was being obedient to His Father. As believers , we too, are to identify with Christ in believers' baptism. People around us will know that we are believers -- what has already taken place in our hearts is being seen visually through baptism.

 

What do you think happens when a person accepts Christ as Savior and never has a chance To be baptized. They get sick and die -- a death bed conversion. Or a young person who gets saved but the parents won't allow for their baptism by immersion. They might have been sprinkled as a baby and that's all the parents believe is necessary. I know where exactly that did happen. The girl was visiting with her grandparents who had a different belief than her parents. She accepted Jesus Christ one summer during VBS and wanted to be baptized by immersion and her folks said No. If you want to when you're 18 then that's up to you. So - is she not fully saved until she's 18? Her heart belief and confession by mouth is what she Did and so she was saved.

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truth3

This is a Protestant forum.

Edited by ConfessionalLutheran
This is a Protestant forum.
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Sue D.

Water baptism is Not what makes the difference in a person -- it is merely the outward indication of what Has Already Taken Place. It is Not part of the Process.

 

You're bio says you're RCC. So you probably believe that infant sprinkling secures a baby until they are old enough. So Your perspective is that some form of sprinkling / baptism is necessary. The thief on the cross who believed was Not able To be Baptised. Yet, Jesus Christ, Himself, said that that very day the thief would be with Christ in Paradise. The Old Testament saints went to Paradise to wait for Jesus Christ to come for them. So -- that very day -- Jesus Christ would descend to get the believers and bring them with him. The thief would be the last of the Old Testament saints. And the 1st 'with Christ'. But -- No Baptism was necessary -- he didn't speak in tongues, either.

 

And nothing in 1 Corinthians 15 mentions speaking in tongues or baptism to be saved.

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Faber
My reference should have been clear. My "Wow" was in reference to your false connotation of water baptism and the gestational sac of a pregnant woman.

 

Which is nowhere near as absurd as believing that Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were not saved until they were water baptized when the evidence I have given clearly demonstrates that they were saved before their water baptism.

 

 

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Dutch

No.simply put look to the thief on the cross and all the old covenant believers.

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Sue D.

@truth3 Jesus Christ was Not the 'average' person. He did not need salvation. His baptism was very different than Ours. He was here as the Son of God. He was here to show mankind the Father. To die on the cross and rise again In Our Place. And then ascended back to heaven to the Father.

 

A person has to be born physically in the first place in order To need to be born-again spiritually.

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theophilus
Jesus is our example, and so, Matthew and John clearly indicate that a man becomes a child of God, after receiving water baptism and not before. Upon receiving water baptism, the heavens are open to that man, being made a son of God.

Are you saying that Jesus was not a child of God until he was baptized?

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atpollard
Jesus is our example, and so, Matthew and John clearly indicate that a man becomes a child of God, after receiving water baptism and not before. Upon receiving water baptism, the heavens are open to that man, being made a son of God.

Then when are you planning on being crucified?

 

... and are you seriously suggesting that Jesus was not the Son of God until his Baptism?

 

You need to take ALL of scripture into account when drawing conclusions. Including the examples in Acts of how Baptism worked for the actual first Christians saved under the new covenant (after Jesus' ressurection). Insights from Peter, Paul and John in the Apostolic Letters should be taken into account as well.

 

We are not Jesus. He showed us how to live a Godly life, but we are not the Christ, so it is impractical to expect to do everything that God did.

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truth3

Then when are you planning on being crucified?

 

... and are you seriously suggesting that Jesus was not the Son of God until his Baptism?

 

You need to take ALL of scripture into account when drawing conclusions. Including the examples in Acts of how Baptism worked for the actual first Christians saved under the new covenant (after Jesus' ressurection). Insights from Peter, Paul and John in the Apostolic Letters should be taken into account as well.

 

We are not Jesus. He showed us how to live a Godly life, but we are not the Christ, so it is impractical to expect to do everything that God did.

 

It seems that all of you have jumped off the cliff. All that you have said, I have said none of it. I have said that concerning water baptism, Jesus is our example. This is why Jesus said to St. John the Baptist, let us fulfill all justice. Water baptism is mandatory [ john 3:5] Of course Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Blessed Holy Trinity.

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atpollard
It seems that all of you have jumped off the cliff. All that you have said, I have said none of it. I have said that concerning water baptism, Jesus is our example. This is why Jesus said to St. John the Baptist, let us fulfill all justice. Water baptism is mandatory [ john 3:5] Of course Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Blessed Holy Trinity.

 

Why can't it just mean what it means elsewhere?

 

Matthew 3:11 NASB “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

 

Acts 2:37-38 NASB Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

Elsewhere those being saved are called to a water baptism for Repentance and a Baptism of the Holy Spirit from God. So when Jesus says:

 

John 3:4-8 NASB Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

Why can that not mean the same thing it means everywhere else that it is actually fulfilled: Baptism in water for repentance and Baptism in the Holy Spirit by God.

As a practical matter, can a person be saved without repenting? Can a person be saved without the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit?

 


PS. It only SEEMS like we jumped off a cliff because you linked the statements

a man becomes a child of God, after receiving water baptism and not before

and

Jesus is our example

in one sentence, leaving us wondering if Jesus was our example in that as well (which bothers some people as an idea that Jesus was not always God). :RpS_smile:

 

 

 

 

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Watcher

No True Christian would ever refuse baptism, would never refuse following the Words and example of Christ for salvation, beginning with believing and being baptized. That would only betray their pride and rebelliousness of their carnal mind, never being cleansed from their sins, never to be Baptized with His Holy Spirit and receiving HIs Righteous Life in their bodies... for they are still dirty, carnal and head strong in their cultish delusion. It is a suicide doctrine.

 

(Mar 16:16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

(Eph 5:26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

(Eph 5:27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 

(Act 8:35) Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

(Act 8:36) And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

 

1Jn_5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jn_5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

(1Pe 3:21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

There can be NO Righteousness fulfilled in ANY man, included Jesus Himself, unless He first shows forth the humble meekness of dying to self in the waters of baptism.

 

(Mat 3:15) And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.

 

Repeat; there can be no righteousness fulfilled in a man unless He does as our Lord did and taught. He gave us two rites. Only two. Water baptism, and the bread and the wine.

Who in their right mind would refuse one or the other?

 

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Sue D.

I would agree -- no true Christian would /should ever Refuse baptism. But there have been a few situations where a minor child would be told to wait for one reason or another. When the young person is under the guidance of the parent -- the child accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior while attending a VBS or a camp. When the parent believes in Only having a child sprinkled and that has been done -- the parent wouldn't believe that baptism by immersion is necessary -- That is when a conflict of interests occurs.

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Explorer55

No, water baptism is not necessary for salvation. I was baptized with the holy spirit first but years later I followed through with a full immersion water baptism as an act of obedience. It was good enough for Christ, it's good enough for me! Others have already provided Scripture refuting the need and supporting water baptism so no need for me to repeat it.

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