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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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AndThisGospel

What happens when the believer dies?

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On another thread I asked the following question: "Why were those from Adam to Moses dying? Were they dying because the law condemned them to death? No, the law had yet to been posted by God on Mount Sinai. Therefore "sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Rom 5:13). Then why were they dying?

 

Answer: Because all men share Adam's fallen life indwelt with sin and therefore stand disqualified for heaven and eternal life.

 

This leads to another question: If there's nothing good in our flesh then why do some Christians teach that something goes to heaven upon the death of the believer?

 

Let's look at Acts 2:29 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. ...34 For David did not ascend into the heavens.

 

David was a man of God. He was a believer, yet we clearly see from Scripture that he did not enter heaven upon his death. Why?

 

According to Rev 21:27 "Nothing impure will ever enter" heaven. That's why Paul says, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Cor 15:50

 

The question then is:

 

What is in the believer that upon his death is holy & righteous and, independent of the resurrection, enters heaven to stand before our holy & righteous God?

 

What is in the believer that upon his death is holy & righteous and, independent of the resurrection, enters heaven to stand before our holy & righteous God?

 

Answer: Nothing! The converted Paul stated, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh" - as in "flesh & blood". Romans 7:18

 

The truth is that the whole man - body, soul & spirit, has been corrupted by the fall of Adam. Therefore we can conclude that there's nothing good in our fallen humanity.

 

If there's nothing good in us then why do some teach that some component of us is holy & good and ascends to heaven upon our death?

 

Here's the problem with this teaching: If some part of me is holy then that part of me doesn't need Christ. Either we are 100% sinners, body, soul and spirit, or we are only 66% sinners. Which is it? If the latter then this teaching contradicts the gospel and salvation in Christ alone.

Edited by AndThisGospel

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How many are righteous? See Romans 3:10 KJV

 

How many are good? See Matt 19:17 KJV

 

If only righteous and good people can enter heaven then what part of us goes to heaven when we die?

 

Answer: No part....

 

If you disagree then you are teaching "another gospel" where we can partially merit salvation.

 

The teaching of an immortal soul is a Catholic teaching. Why are Protestants agreeing with Roman?

 

 

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Hi ATG, the Bible teaches us these things as well:

8 We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to
be absent from the body
and to be
at home with the Lord
.

9 Therefore also we have as our ambition,
whether at home or absent
, to be pleasing to Him.

 

21 For to me, to live is Christ, and
to die is gain
.

22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire
to
depart and be with Christ
, for that is very much better.

 

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10
and
they cried out with a loud voice
, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

 

We know that when we die our bodies remain here (as the Scriptures above attest), so if our souls are not awake during the intermediate state, how can we die and be immediately "at home with the Lord"? Likewise, how could St. Paul possibly believe that, "to die is gain", or that we can make anything our, "ambition", after we die, if we are asleep?

 

For that matter, what possible reason could St. Paul have had for being "hard-pressed" about the choice between living and dying, if dying amounted to nothing more than an unconscious existence? (and why would he consider dying, "very much better", than continuing on in his "fruitful labor" here among us?)

 

Finally, how could the souls of the martyrs under the altar in Heaven, "cry out with a loud voice", if they were all unconscious/asleep?

 

Yours in Christ,

David

Luke 16

19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23 “In Hades
he lifted up his eyes
, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “And
he cried out and said
, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

25 “But
Abraham said
, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

27 “And
he said
, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—

28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “But
Abraham said
, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’

30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’

31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

 

Edited by David Lee
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" to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord"... "to depart and be with Christ"....

 

Okay, then I am wrong, correct? Then we must conclude that apparently there is something naturally holy in the believer that escapes the 1st death...

 

Please tell me what component of the believer is holy so that it escapes the death sentence that came upon "all men" because of the fall of Adam.

 

Not only does this component skip the death sentence that came upon "all men", but it also goes directly to heaven without being changed. .

 

Therefore we are not 100% sinners saved by grace, but 66% sinners....One of our components is righteous while the other 2 polluted by sin. That's 2/3 a sinner and 1/3 righteous. But the Bible states there are none righteous, no, not even one. Rom 3:10

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Okay, then I am wrong, correct? Then we must conclude that apparently there is something naturally holy in the believer that escapes the 1st death...

 

Please tell me what component of the believer is holy so that it escapes the death sentence that came upon "all men" because of the fall of Adam.

 

Not only does this component skip the death sentence that came upon "all men", but it also goes directly to heaven without being changed. .

 

Therefore we are not 100% sinners saved by grace, but 66% sinners....One of our components is righteous while the other 2 polluted by sin. That's 2/3 a sinner and 1/3 righteous. But the Bible states there are none righteous, no, not even one. Rom 3:10

Your post is non-responsive to David Lee's counter points. You have claimed that that there is not immortal soul. David Lee has cited passages that does not support your claim. You cannot refute his evidence by simply ignoring it. You must address it.

 

 

Edited by Origen
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Apologies in advance if I don't fully understand your question.

 

Here's what I've come across while reading: We are made righteous by the blood of Christ alone

Romans 5:17-21, 2Corinthians 5:21

 

This isn't to say that In our flesh that we are bound to, we won't struggle with sin Romans 7:22-24

 

Ultimately however, I believe even in death, our new status in Christ prevails 2 Corinthians 5:17.

 

We are now 100% righteous before God so long as we have accepted Christ and his justification/glorification (not 2/3). Christ is the "component" that has made us holy. If one has not accepted Christ as savior, then likewise they are 100% sinner in God's eyes.

 

As for the death sentence that has come upon "all men" I don't think we avoid it. However I think we overcome it by the promise of restoration we have Revelations 21:4-5.

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Your post is non-responsive to David Lee's counter points. You have claimed that that there is not immortal soul. David Lee has cited passage that does not support your claim. You cannot refute his evidence by simply ignoring it. You must address it.

 

These are easily refuted....The issue, however, is believing in an immortal soul means that you believe that something in you is naturally good & holy. If something is good then that part doesn't need Christ's righteousness. In most Christian circles that would be called legalism or self-righteousness.

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Here's what I've come across while reading: We are made righteous by the blood of Christ alone Romans 5:17-21, 2Corinthians 5:21

 

Are we righteous in reality or are we righteous "in Christ"?

 

If we are righteous in reality then we do not need Christ's righteousness.

 

Keep in mind what it means to be righteous: Perfect, unblemished obedience to God's law from the cradle to the grave. Fail in one point and you've had it.

 

Therefore by the works of the law no one will be justified in His sight.

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As for the death sentence that has come upon "all men" I don't think we avoid it. However I think we overcome it by the promise of restoration we have Revelations 21:4-5.

 

Please elaborate

 

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ATG, our righteousness in Christ is reality 😀

 

Where's Christ? In heaven right? So "in Him" (not in us) we have a "new creation". You, of yourself, are a child of Adam (a sinner) who has been adopted into God's family through faith, but you are not righteous.

 

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ATG, our righteousness in Christ is reality 😀

 

I agree,

 

Faith is tied to future realities. Faith gives an objective reality to what we know is coming, enabling us to live now as if we already possess the fullness of our inheritance in Christ.

  • Hebrews 11:1–3 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.”

A.W. Pink writes,

 

“Faith gives the object hoped for at a future period, a present reality and power in the soul, as if already possessed; for the believer is satisfied with the security afforded, and acts under the full persuasion that God will not fail of His engagement.”

 

We say that we are righteous through faith alone because faith is the only means by which we can lay hold of Christ’s righteousness.

  • 1 Corinthians 1:30–31 “Because of [God] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, ‘Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.’”

The Heidelberg Catechism, Q&A 61

 

Q. Why do you say that through faith alone you are righteous?

A. Not because I please God by the worthiness of my faith. It is because only Christ's satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness make me righteous before God, and because I can accept this righteousness and make it mine in no other way than through faith.

  • 1 Cor. 1:30-31 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
  • Rom. 10:10 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
  • 1 John 5:10-12 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

God bless,

William

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These are easily refuted....The issue, however, is believing in an immortal soul means that you believe that something in you is naturally good & holy. If something is good then that part doesn't need Christ's righteousness. In most Christian circles that would be called legalism or self-righteousness.

 

ATG,

 

I question your premise. Why do you think because the soul is immortal that it is naturally good or holy? Why are you implying that an immortal soul is not hell bound but rather heaven bound?

  • Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

God bless,

William

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These are easily refuted
And yet you have not.

 

The issue, however, is believing in an immortal soul means that you believe that something in you is naturally good & holy. If something is good then that part doesn't need Christ's righteousness. In most Christian circles that would be called legalism or self-righteousness.
Not really. If you are going to ignore counter evidence put to you, then your claims are fruitless.

 

 

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If you are going to ignore counter evidence put to you, then your claims are fruitless.

 

 

9626ab99196aafa71ebc87fd64064152_i-love-being-ignored-being-meme-being-ignored_400-400.jpeg.2991913a43f1801b53e9a00a3eb654bf.jpeg

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As for the death sentence that has come upon "all men" I don't think we avoid it. However I think we overcome it by the promise of restoration we have Revelations 21:4-5.

 

Please elaborate

 

 

 

Sure. When I heard you speak of this "death sentence" Romans 5:12 came to mind. Though we are under the confines of flesh and sins influence, the focus is on the one who has conquered death 1Corinthians 15:21-22.

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Where's Christ? In heaven right? So "in Him" (not in us) we have a "new creation". You, of yourself, are a child of Adam (a sinner) who has been adopted into God's family through faith, but you are not righteous.

 

 

Correct. That is the beauty of The Gospel isn't it?!

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Where's Christ? In heaven right? So "in Him" (not in us) we have a "new creation". You, of yourself, are a child of Adam (a sinner) who has been adopted into God's family through faith, but you are not righteous.

 

 

 

 

 

Correct. That is the beauty of The Gospel isn't it?!

 

* Correct that we have a new creation in Christ; we still are a new creation though. And I of myself was a son of Adam adopted and grafted into the Family of God.

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Correct. That is the beauty of The Gospel isn't it?!

 

wfredeemed,

 

You really need to post more, brother. Your comments are beneficial, edifying, and refreshing to read.

 

God bless,

William

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* Correct that we have a new creation in Christ; we still are a new creation though.

 

Really? If you were a new creation you would be holy & blameless (and, BTW, did I mention immortal?) You only have this "in Christ" by faith. You are none of these things in reality....

 

 

And I of myself was a son of Adam adopted and grafted into the Family of God.

 

No, no...you still have a humanity that belongs to Adam...You have yet to receive your new creation "in Christ". You are getting the two confused for some reason....

 

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Sure. When I heard you speak of this "death sentence" Romans 5:12 came to mind. Though we are under the confines of flesh and sins influence, the focus is on the one who has conquered death 1Corinthians 15:21-22.

 

I have no problem with that statement....

 

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ATG, Why do you think because the soul is immortal that it is naturally good or holy?

 

For something to go to heaven upon our death it must be holy & righteousness. Nothing can enter heaven that is impure.

 

 

You must understand that immortality and righteousness are linked as are sin and mortality.

 

 

Immortality & righteousness

 

 

 

 

Romans 10:5 "For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall by them live"

 

"Ez 20:11 "I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, by which the person who obeys them will live."

 

Lev 18:5 "Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will by them live. I am the Lord."

 

Gal 3:12 "The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will by them live".

Mortality & sin

 

 

 

 

"

Romans 6:23 "the wages of sin is death"....i.e., sin brings mortality.

 

Romans 5:21 "sin reigned in death"...i.e., again, sin is linked to mortality....

 

There are literally hundreds of these type texts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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For something to go to heaven upon our death it must be holy & righteousness. Nothing can enter heaven that is impure.

 

 

You must understand that immortality and righteousness are linked as are sin and mortality.

 

 

 

If some part of you goes directly to heaven at your death then something in you is naturally holy & righteousness and therefore immortal! Such teaching denies our need of Christ's righteousness.

 

Again, we are 100% sinners saved by grace, not 66% sinners....The latter would infer merit...i.e., legalism & self-righteousness.

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If you are going to ignore counter evidence put to you, then your claims are fruitless.

 

 

Okay, give me evidence that something is us is good and that it goes directly to heaven upon the believer's death....

 

Only one quote at a time....

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