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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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AndThisGospel

Does Paul condemn the gay lifestyle?

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Part 1

 

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

 

My commentary: God's wrath, which we will later discover to be passive, is against ungodliness & the unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth. Self-dependency, that is, living one's life without God is the essence of ungodliness. So God's wrath is not against the sinner, but those who have heard and know the truth and seek to suppress it.

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Part 2

 

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools...

 

My commentary: All who have reached the age of accountability know of God either directly or indirectly. Directly through the written word - the Holy Scriptures. Indirectly, by "the things that are made". Everyone knows of God through their consciences and therefore "they are without excuse".

 

Those who sear their consciences become hardened. Their hearts and thoughts become darkened. They profess to be wise, but in reality they are fools.

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Part 3

 

24 "Therefore God also gave them up (abandoned them) to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

 

My commentary: Please notice that God's wrath is passive. His wrath is not like sinful, human anger.

 

Please turn to Deuteronomy 31:17

 

"Then My anger (i.e., His wrath) shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’"

 

Note that it is when God "forsakes" or hides His face that bad things happen.

 

So back to verse 24: God gave them up...that is, He abandoned those who rejected Him as God.

 

The result? They dishonored their bodies among themselves....

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Part 4

 

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

 

My commentary: Again, God abandons those who persistently reject Him. God gives them up to the dictates of their natures. Women with women and men with men committing what is shameful. The result of their error? Sexually transmitted diseases and even worse - the curse of the law - for those who persistently and ultimately refuse to acknowledge God.

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Part 5

 

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d]unmerciful;

 

My commentary: Note the problem: "They did not like to retain God in their knowledge". In other words they didn't need God and He wasn't welcome in their lives.

 

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Part 6

 

verse 32: "who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

 

My commentary: The problem is not that they are sinning. "All have sinned" and all are falling short of God's agape love. See Romans 3:23 Not even the believer is above all sin. See 1 John 1:8.

 

Then what's the problem? Ungodliness!!!! They are living their little, insignificant lives outside God's grace in Christ Jesus. They are going it alone. They don't need God because they are self-dependent. They are wise in their own eyes.

 

Not only this, but they practice sin as a legitimate lifestyle and they "also give hearty approval to those who practice them."

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The answer would seem to be yes. That doesn't mean that you have to like everything you find in the Bible, but you can't ignore it either. Paul's words do seem harsh. Personally, I prefer Tim Keller's softer approach.

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If the wicked United States does not fall by a wicked enemy (Proverbs 16:4 KJV) then the Lord best raise Sodom and Gomorrah up from the ashes and apologize.

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HOMOSEXUALITY Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor HOMOSEXUALS, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper." Homosexuality is CLEARLY condemned in the Bible. It undermines the basis of God's created order where God made Adam, a man, and Eve, a woman -- not two men, not two women -- to carry out his command to fill and subdue the earth (Gen. 1:28). Homosexuality cannot carry out that command. It also undermines the basic family unit of husband and wife, the God-ordained means of procreation. It is also dangerous to society. Unlike other sins, homosexuality has a heavy judgment administered by God Himself upon those who commit it - and support it. This judgment is simple in that those who practice it are given over to their passions - which means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins. "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error," (Rom. 1:26-27). As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing. They will not seek forgiveness. They will die in their sins and face God's holy condemnation. But, that isn't all. In addition to the judgment of being given over to their sin, those involved in it also promote it and condemn others who don't approve of their behavior. "...and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them," (Rom. 1:32). So, in their hearty approval of homosexuality they encourage others to be trapped in their sinfulness. This means they will reject Christ's redemptive work on the cross. Without Jesus, they will have no forgiveness. Without forgiveness, they will have no salvation. Without salvation, there is only damnation in eternal hell. We don't want this for anyone. The only hope for the homosexual, and all people who break God's laws, is to realize that God is holy and he will rightfully judge all who have sined against him by breaking his law (1 Kings 8:32; Ps. 9:8; 1 John 3:4). If he did not do this, then he would be approving of wrong doing. However, God is loving (1 John 4:8) patient (Rom. 2:4), wanting people to repent (Acts 17:30) and come a saving knowledge of him so they might be redeemed. What this means is that the sinner must turn to Christ, who is God the Son in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9), who bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), died and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4), and made it possible for sinners to be saved from the righteous judgment of God by faith in what Jesus did on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21) and be forgiven of their sins (Eph. 2:8). This is done receiving Christ (John 1:12), by believing in him and his sacrifice that is a payment for our sins to God the Father. Like any sinner, the homosexual needs to repent, receive Christ by faith, and be saved from God's righteous judgment by trusting in Christ and the judgment that fell upon him on the cross. They need to pray and ask the Lord Jesus to save them. ἀρσενοκοίτης arsenokoitēs ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.

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The 'gay' lifestyle is condemned. The homosexuality -- being attracted to the same sex is not the sin. It's the Actin On that is. And that mind-set can apply to Anyone. A person can be attracted to any number of people of either sex. But it's how they Choose to respond to the attraction that makes the difference. So it's choosing to Live that lifestyle that gets a person in trouble.

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being attracted to the same sex is not the sin

 

Matthew 5:28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”

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Finding someone attractive is Not 'lusting' after them -- it Could be -- but isn't necessarily. A person could see someone's nice, friendly smile -- or beautiful eyes = being attractive/ attracted to them. If someone is admiring an 'ample bosom ' or other parts of the body in 'that' way -- then - lusting probably would be applicable.

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HOMOSEXUALITY

 

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

 

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

 

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor HOMOSEXUALS, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

 

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

 

Homosexuality is CLEARLY condemned in the Bible. It undermines the basis of God's created order where God made Adam, a man, and Eve, a woman -- not two men, not two women -- to carry out his command to fill and subdue the earth (Gen. 1:28). Homosexuality cannot carry out that command. It also undermines the basic family unit of husband and wife, the God-ordained means of procreation. It is also dangerous to society.

 

Unlike other sins, homosexuality has a heavy judgment administered by God Himself upon those who commit it - and support it. This judgment is simple in that those who practice it are given over to their passions - which means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins.

 

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error," (Rom. 1:26-27).

 

As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing. They will not seek forgiveness. They will die in their sins and face God's holy condemnation. But, that isn't all. In addition to the judgment of being given over to their sin, those involved in it also promote it and condemn others who don't approve of their behavior.

 

"...and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them," (Rom. 1:32).

 

So, in their hearty approval of homosexuality they encourage others to be trapped in their sinfulness. This means they will reject Christ's redemptive work on the cross. Without Jesus, they will have no forgiveness. Without forgiveness, they will have no salvation. Without salvation, there is only damnation in eternal hell. We don't want this for anyone.

 

The only hope for the homosexual, and all people who break God's laws, is to realize that God is holy and he will rightfully judge all who have sined against him by breaking his law (1 Kings 8:32; Ps. 9:8; 1 John 3:4). If he did not do this, then he would be approving of wrong doing. However, God is loving (1 John 4:8) patient (Rom. 2:4), wanting people to repent (Acts 17:30) and come a saving knowledge of him so they might be redeemed. What this means is that the sinner must turn to Christ, who is God the Son in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9), who bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), died and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4), and made it possible for sinners to be saved from the righteous judgment of God by faith in what Jesus did on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21) and be forgiven of their sins (Eph. 2:8). This is done receiving Christ (John 1:12), by believing in him and his sacrifice that is a payment for our sins to God the Father. Like any sinner, the homosexual needs to repent, receive Christ by faith, and be saved from God's righteous judgment by trusting in Christ and the judgment that fell upon him on the cross. They need to pray and ask the Lord Jesus to save them.

 

ἀρσενοκοίτης

arsenokoitēs

ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace

From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.

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You really need to paragraph your thoughts -- or something. A few sentences at a time -- separated by a space or two would be much easier to read.

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You really need to paragraph your thoughts -- or something. A few sentences at a time -- separated by a space or two would be much easier to read.

 

Sure, it normally formats correctly.

 

Moderation: Previous post was edited with correct format.

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Sure, it normally formats correctly.

 

Moderation: Previous post was edited with correct format.

 

 

 

Your up-dated format is Much easier to read. The comment I was making is that homosexuality is only a sin IF acted upon. A person can be Tempted to engage in a physically intimate way with someone of their same sex -- but they have a choice as to whether or not they Act On it. A homosexual person is capable of Friendship -- it's the on-going life-style that is condemned. A person can have a problem with a certain sin -- maybe a bad temper -- they can learn to control their temper -- but , once in a while they will find themselves in a Bad situation and Loose it. They regret it / forgiveness -- but they Don't let it run their lives.

 

No one wears a sign on them labeling them as a 'whatever' -- so - in reality -- unless a person is 'acting out' in public -- who would Know it Unless they Want everyone to know it. IF I saw two men saying hello or goodbye at a buss station or train or airlines and they kissed each other -- it would 'gross me out'. Or they were holding hands - it wouldn't look 'natural'. The same thing with two women. And there are times when it's perfectly natural for two men To hug each other. During times of grief or triumph or out on the football field. But those are not done in an affectionate way. It's a commradry thing. And women Do tend to Be huggers. But a person can tell 'natural' from too much affection.

 

Society -- at least here in the U.S. isn't quite where Sodom and Gohmorrah were. God destroyed those cities. So, no, 'we' don't want to get that bad.

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The comment I was making is that homosexuality is only a sin IF acted upon.

 

Where is THAT in the Bible?

 

Remember Matthew 5:28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

 

I am sure this would apply to the sodomites and lesbians as well.

 

Society -- at least here in the U.S. isn't quite where Sodom and Gohmorrah were. God destroyed those cities. So, no, 'we' don't want to get that bad.

 

Oh, its getting pretty close, though, right? No offense intended. New Zealand is getting there as well.

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Oh, its getting pretty close, though, right? No offense intended. New Zealand is getting there as well.

 

 

How does a person Know Outwardly that a person Is a homosexual -- because of their Actions. I can't 'read' a person's heart. And I'm not in their bedroom -- and 'behind closed doors' is where intimate activity should be taking place. And then it's between that person and God.

 

In the New Testament it says that a man is not to lay with another man or women with other women the same way that a man and women would act together. That is the 'act of'. taking place.

 

And, there are many countries where that is true. I've heard that from people on another Forum. Another poster lives in another country and he said it's quite common to see men holding hands. People simply ignore it if they don't like it. The thought being that they are consenting adults and it's their own business.

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How does a person Know Outwardly that a person Is a homosexual -- because of their Actions. I can't 'read' a person's heart. And I'm not in their bedroom -- and 'behind closed doors' is where intimate activity should be taking place. And then it's between that person and God.

 

But if you do not rebuke them for their sin, the Bible says that you are just as guilty of the sin as they are.

 

In the New Testament it says that a man is not to lay with another man or women with other women the same way that a man and women would act together. That is the 'act of'. taking place.

 

True. It also says what i quoted above.

 

And, there are many countries where that is true. I've heard that from people on another Forum. Another poster lives in another country and he said it's quite common to see men holding hands. People simply ignore it if they don't like it. The thought being that they are consenting adults and it's their own business.

 

 

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And where does it say that if you don't rebuke them of their sin, you are just as guilty as they are?

 

The law in This country has a person 'guilty by association' -- meaning that if you're in a group of people who are caught doing something illegal -- you , as an individual are as guilty of the 'whatever' as the people actually committing the crime - even if you are not the person actually doing the 'thing'. But that is civil law.

 

 

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And where does it say that if you don't rebuke them of their sin, you are just as guilty as they are?

 

The law in This country has a person 'guilty by association' -- meaning that if you're in a group of people who are caught doing something illegal -- you , as an individual are as guilty of the 'whatever' as the people actually committing the crime - even if you are not the person actually doing the 'thing'. But that is civil law.

 

 

First, if we dont warn a person, their blood is on OUR hands:

 

Ezek. 3:18 "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

 

As for the being guilty of their sin if we dont warn them, i will have to get back to you on that, i cannot find it off the top of my head. If i forget to get back to you, please remind me.

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First, if we dont warn a person, their blood is on OUR hands:

 

Ezek. 3:18 "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

 

As for the being guilty of their sin if we dont warn them, i will have to get back to you on that, i cannot find it off the top of my head. If i forget to get back to you, please remind me.

 

 

This is Ezekiel talking to the House of Israel. I don't see That passage as having anything to do with us - now.

 

Actually -- each person is responsible to God for their actions. And, we Can warn a person of their actions If they are willing to listen -- and if we have justifiable cause To approach another person about their actions. If a person is part of our family - we can talk with them - not preach At them. The teens our teens run around with. As a parent - as my kids are growing up - I do have responsibility to guide them. In God's Word. Regarding His guidelines for relationships. But - as teens approach adulthood -- they are responsible to God for their decisions. Their 'blood' is Not on my hands. There are times when teens / adult children Will make choices that we won't agree with. Does it affect their salvation?

 

I'm also NOT condoning illicit sexual relationships. My older daughter has been in and out of several relationships with various men over the past few years. She definitely has problems. And she's also back into counseling on her own volition.

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This is Ezekiel talking to the House of Israel. I don't see That passage as having anything to do with us - now.

 

Actually -- each person is responsible to God for their actions. And, we Can warn a person of their actions If they are willing to listen -- and if we have justifiable cause To approach another person about their actions. If a person is part of our family - we can talk with them - not preach At them. The teens our teens run around with. As a parent - as my kids are growing up - I do have responsibility to guide them. In God's Word. Regarding His guidelines for relationships. But - as teens approach adulthood -- they are responsible to God for their decisions. Their 'blood' is Not on my hands. There are times when teens / adult children Will make choices that we won't agree with. Does it affect their salvation?

 

I'm also NOT condoning illicit sexual relationships. My older daughter has been in and out of several relationships with various men over the past few years. She definitely has problems. And she's also back into counseling on her own volition.

 

There are other verses, but i cant find them just yet.

 

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I'm also NOT condoning illicit sexual relationships. My older daughter has been in and out of several relationships with various men over the past few years. She definitely has problems. And she's also back into counseling on her own volition.

 

So you dont tell someone who is sinning that they are sinning?

 

let and let live, huh?

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