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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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Are We Naturally Good or Naturally Bad?

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I'd bore you on what you already know and are convinced of believing. Like you, great minds from differing school of thought and views have valid arguments. A lot are speculations. But still, important to hear about it to allow for discussion.


On the question involving the natural goodness or badness of man in general, I believe that everything created in the universe is good. About human as a WHOLE being: with heart, mind, body and soul-- there is a prescription for every man and woman, to enjoy our right-to-life for the purpose of functioning productively-- producing results from our actions. That prescription is the "Moral Law."


Here’s a bullet list of what’s believed:

  • Back to 16th century's English philosopher, Hobbes-- we are bad-- motivated by the ungratified, unending passion for power. He said that we are bad but governments and police are boundaries to limit the harm we do.
  • Rousseau (1700s) believed we are naturally good. He blamed society and institutions that made us bad.
  • Modern neo-Darwinians—natural selection. Whatever that means.
  • Romantics – by nature, good.
  • Classicists— man is fixed and limited, an animal. Tradition and social make him human.
  • Judaism—God created humans even after discussing with the angels.
  • Torah (Hebraic Scriptures)—we are “both destructive and constructive.” Constructive: God created the universe in order, and then, created human beings and God said, “It is very good.” And made a covenant with man and woman (Gen. 1-3; Gen.9 with Noah).

Man is destructive—Genesis 6:5-6 “God saw that the wickedness of Man was great upon the earth, and that every product of the thoughts of his heart was but evil always. 6. And the LORD reconsidered having made Man on earth, and He had heartfelt sadness.” ( The Chumash Stone Edition)

  • Torah (Hebraic Scriptures)— “God created mankind in His own image, in the image of God He created them; man and female He created them.” (Genesis 1:27)

We respond to the natural goodness we are made into in relation to the “covenant” God made with us-- as created in His image (we can think, speak, judge, plan, choose and govern). Our response is to safeguard the “image” He entrusted to us.


How we do that? By instituting a system of justice, law and order in the government, society and our homes. That response, which Moral law was born.


This my take on, "Are We Naturally Good or Naturally Bad?" topic. What say ye?

Edited by PsalmOneCares
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This my take on, "Are We Naturally Good or Naturally Bad?" topic. What say ye?


As a Calvinist, I believe in the doctrine called Total Depravity. First of all, I want to emphasize that you asked the question of the state of man "naturally", that is, the natural or unregenerate man:


Total depravity (also called total inability or total corruption) is a biblical doctrine closely linked with the doctrine of original sin as formalized by Augustine and advocated in many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, especially in Calvinism. The doctrine understands the Bible to teach that, as a consequence of the the Fall of man, every person born into the world is morally corrupt, enslaved to sin and is, apart from the grace of God, utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to turn to Christ in faith for salvation:


Are people good deep down?

  • Mark 7:21-23 - "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person." (c.f. Matthew 15:19)
  • Psalm 5:9 - For there is no truth in their mouth; their inmost self is destruction; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.



Is man basically good or basically evil?

  • Ecclesiastes 7:29 - "See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes."
  • Romans 5:7-8 - For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
  • Romans 5:12,19 - sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned... by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners


Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?

Heart/Mind (Deceitful)

  • Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
  • Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
  • Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
  • Romans 1:28-31 - And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were... foolish
  • Ephesians 4:17-18 - you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
  • Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 - among all the wise ones of the nations and in all their kingdoms there is none like you. They are both stupid and foolish... Every man is stupid and without knowledge
  • Matthew 15:19 - "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander." (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
  • Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his youth.
  • Proverbs 10:20 - the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
  • Proverbs 28:26 - Whoever trusts in his own [heart] is a fool


Are men at least born pure? What about the "tabula rasa"?

  • Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
  • Genesis 8:21 - the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth."
  • Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
  • John 3:6 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh"


Source: https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...ity-verse-list


God bless,


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