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Origen

Poll Question: Noah and The Flood

Poll Question: Noah and The Flood  

25 members have voted

  1. 1. Poll Question: Noah and The Flood

    • World Wide Flood
    • Local Flood
    • No Flood, story not meant to be taken literally
      0


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Origen
Staff

What is your view concerning the flood? Please feel free to add comments on the topic.

 

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thatbrian

Looks like I'm the only heretic. ;)

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Knotical

There is plenty of evidence to suggest a world wide flood.

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atpollard
Looks like I'm the only heretic.

I still love you. :)

This doesn't even come close to being an issue to break fellowship over.

Frankly, it would not surprise me at all to get to heaven and have Moses say "Guy's it was metaphorical." Then a billion fundamentalists will all slap our foreheads as we gain comprehension at the same time and say "Ooohhh."

 

I am just never comfortable betting against the literal interpretation of scripture, so I err on the side of 6 literal days of creation and a literal world-wide flood.

(I just keep both out of the path of essential sotierology).

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Knotical

If the account of the flood were meant to be metaphorical what would the purpose of having Noah build the ark in the first place if he was not to load it with animals in anticipation of a devastating flood?

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atpollard
If the account of the flood were meant to be metaphorical what would the purpose of having Noah build the ark in the first place if he was not to load it with animals in anticipation of a devastating flood?

 

Let me turn the question around.

If someone somehow PROVES that there was no whole earth flood, will that make the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, just another ancient myth, like Brahma or Zeus or Odin?

 

To answer directly:

IF THE FLOOD WAS METAPHORICAL (this is a huge and unproven 'if' that I do not believe is true, but am simply entertaining as a 'what if'), then the whole story is metaphorical. Noah never built an ark, there were no animals on the ark, the life expectancy before the flood vs after, the first rainbow, all of it is metaphorical.

 

Like the story of the 'prodigal son'. The veracity of the story is not essential to understand the point Jesus was attempting to communicate by the story.

 

So look at the story of the flood and what message is there for YOU irrespective of whether it was a world-wide flood, a local flood, or a hypothetical flood.

1. Even in a world of complete evil, God will see (and retain) a righteous Remanent.

2. God will make provision for His People and the continuation of his plan no matter what.

3. God will warn evil men of their impending doom; the righteous men will be the instrument that warns them.

4. When the time for judgement comes, it is the hand of God that will both protect the righteous and destroy the evil.

5. There is nowhere evil can hide to escape the judgement of God.

6. After delivering his Remanent safely through judgement, God will erect an eternal 'Ebeneezer' visible to all men to remind us who he is and what he has done ... to both the righteous and the wicked.

7. Every time you see the rainbow, remember the story of Noah and God.

8. It also foreshadows the coming Christ.

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Knotical

The real question is: what would be the point of the account if it were metaphorical?

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thatbrian

Here we go. . .

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thatbrian

I still love you. :)

This doesn't even come close to being an issue to break fellowship over.

Frankly, it would not surprise me at all to get to heaven and have Moses say "Guy's it was metaphorical." Then a billion fundamentalists will all slap our foreheads as we gain comprehension at the same time and say "Ooohhh."

 

I am just never comfortable betting against the literal interpretation of scripture, so I err on the side of 6 literal days of creation and a literal world-wide flood.

(I just keep both out of the path of essential sotierology).

 

 

I belive that the flood was local/regional, but I wouldn't want to die on that hill.

 

If it was local, the storyline can remain unchanged. It's just the meaning of the word, "world" that is in question. Just like the word, "all" is frequently mistaken by many Arminians.

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atpollard
The real question is: what would be the point of the account if it were metaphorical?

Same as its point if it is literal.

It teaches about remanent and judgement and destruction and deliverance ... foreshadowing both Christ's work of redemption, and the judgement of the End of the Age.

 

Is it essential to your salvation that it never rained before the flood?

Is this a hill to die on?

 

[Mind you, I believe in a literal world-wide flood. I just do not see it as essential to salvation.]

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theophilus

There is evidence that the flood was worldwide in the fossils that are found in all parts of the world. Most of them were caused by the flood. The belief that they are formed over millions of years was originated by scientists who didn't believe in the flood and so had to find some other explanation to account for them. Unfortunately their opinions are now such an established part of our culture that a lot of Christians who believe the Bible accept them as true.

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thisnthat

 

 

I belive that the flood was local/regional, but I wouldn't want to die on that hill.

 

May I ask what causes you to think this? I was taught that it was the whole world.

 

I'm not sure how that lines up with God's promise about never flooding (the "world") again. We do still have devastating floods, but not world wide. He isn't breaking His promise, so... how does that work?

 

 

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Knotical

 

 

I belive that the flood was local/regional, but I wouldn't want to die on that hill.

 

If it was local, the storyline can remain unchanged. It's just the meaning of the word, "world" that is in question. Just like the word, "all" is frequently mistaken by many Arminians.

 

The math just does not add up for a local flood, considering the rain fell for 40 days and 40 nights. In addition, the bible says, the springs were opened up as well. There was enough water to completely submerge entire mountain ranges, which would make a local flood impossible.

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thatbrian

 

The math just does not add up for a local flood, considering the rain fell for 40 days and 40 nights. In addition, the bible says, the springs were opened up as well. There was enough water to completely submerge entire mountain ranges, which would make a local flood impossible.

 

What math? You didn't provide any math.

 

 

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Knotical

 

What math? You didn't provide any math.

 

 

Trillions of gallons of water.

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Sue D.

This account is found in Genesis 6- 8 . Chapter 7: 20 says the waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered,....." so the terrain was fairly Flat before the flood. There was no Grand Canyon or Pikes' Peak back then. So between the water under the earth -- that watered the earth before it rained and rained -- coming Up and the rain falling -- the earth underwent a great up-heaval which resulted in the shape of the earth Now.

 

If a person takes the Present terrain and has a world-wide flood -- I could understand the skepticism.

 

God gave Noah exact measurements for the ark / how to build it. So How would all of that be metaphorical in nature. Why Not literal.

 

God chose to destroy All of mankind -- small children included. Because children are taught by adults. They would grow up to be evil just like the society around them.

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William
Staff

I do not believe it is metaphorical, and regarding our nature all men are born in Adam and exhibit a sin nature. Children do not need to be taught to lie, steal, disobey or dishonor their parents etc. If it were not for election all children would exhibit eternal consequences.

 

Take for example a young child. An infant if you will. You hold the child in your arms and the child sees that shiny watch around your wrist. The child grabs for it and you gently say no. The child cries and reaches for the watch again. You say no, and the child begins to cry and then reaches out for it yet again. You say no, and the child screams and squirms in your arms reaching for the watch. Grace subdues or neutralizes the child, but do not be fooled, if that child was a full grown man, he'd be standing over your corpse with a shiny new watch. All men are born sinners, and if left to themselves will perish.

 

God bless,

William

 

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Sue D.

Young children / infants are Also born curious. When they start reaching for things that aren't safe for them, a person will remove the object from their reach. That 'reaching / grabbing' instinct serves them well for a bit later when they are starting to feed themselves. They try to put Everything in their mouth. That's their way of getting nourishment. When they are older -- lots of times the first word they learn to say is 'no,no' because they hear it so much. As they get to be a bit older, they gradually learn -- yes, have to be taught to obey to play nicely. Years ago I had a favorite shell necklace -- I wore it until my infant daughter discovered it and started trying to grab it. I quit wearing that necklace for both her safety and protecting the necklace.

 

Well -- what happens to a small child who isn't old enough to understand right from wrong. The 'age of accountability'. Aren't they under God's grace / mercy?! In the Old Testament -- David's baby dies -- the child he had with Bathsheba. He was totally heart broken over that situation. We believe that David was a believer -- he said that the child can't come back to him, but he would someday be with the child. Which would indicate that the infant was with Christ.

 

That's why we gradually teach kids from young onward about respect for other people. Do not hit, pinch or 'whatever' -- because grown people Don't act that way. If they Do, they are in Big trouble.

 

Some kids are fairly easy to 'train' -- other's are constantly testing boundaries.

 

Yes, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And, the wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

Only God knows who the elect are -- we don't. It's a good thing 'we' don't know who God has elected for salvation. Because then 'we' would be picking and choosing who to share the Gospel until salvation - with. We have been given the great commission -- go out to all the nations -- starting at home and then spreading out. Everyone around us is a 'mission field'. My sister and her husband felt led to go to Brazil and spent 40 years in church planting there. They retired from foreign missions and are now at home.

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thisnthat

@Sue D. I never thought about it like that. It makes sense to though, since the world was a different place back then.

 

I don't know why people think it's metaphorical, and I've yet to see an answer. It seems like a very detailed account, and I can't recall such detailed instructions (or anything else) being given in stories/parables.

 

I also don't know why a pair of every single type of animal would have been gathered if it had just been a "local" flood.

 

 

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Sue D.

There are those who'd rather consider Noah's flood as either , metaphorical or just local, because they have trouble reconciling a loving God with One who would cause the deaths of all those people, especially children. They'd rather picture the wicked people from one part of the world being destroyed rather than All of the people. They don't want a God who practices righteous judgment / death -- but One who practices only loving forgiveness. God is Both. In some countries , even now, children are not innocent , they are being trained from Very young ages to be dangerous. But when children see only war, killing, it's normal to them. In more civilized countries, 'we're' more likely to feel sorry for small children -- love, nurture them. Too many children don't experience love, nurturing. So, God had to destroy Everyone / small children as well.

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Knotical

One other thing that could lend itself to a local flood believability is at the time of Noah humans had not spread across the planet's surface very far, so they would be pretty centrally located. It wasn't until the event of the Tower of Babel that caused massive migrations. Still doesn't prove the local flood theory, but something that might cause people to believe it.

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Sue D.

That's one of the ideas I've come across a lot on another Forum. Maybe the thought was that once it started raining that people would scatter -- try to outrun the waters. With a local flood that Could happen and some of the evil people Could survive. But that wouldn't happen with a world-wide flood. No way to escape. God knew exactly what was needed. And He promised that He'd never do that again. Lots of Local flooding, though.

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ThyWordisTruth
The real question is: what would be the point of the account if it were metaphorical?

 

The same as the point if it recounts a historical event. Namely, divine displeasure at the way God's creation is corrupted by men - and the fearful consequences which follow from that. Although I have just disagreed with William over the too free and easy use of typology, the Flood narrative could be read as a prefigurment of the Last Judgement.

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Sue D.

Doesn't 'metaphorical' mean that it didn't actually happen? There's a lot of Scripture dealing with it to have it not actually happen. Measurements of the ark -- how long it was floating -- so why all of that info for an event that didn't actually happen. That's more a rhetorical question than an actual question.

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Origen
Staff
This account is found in Genesis 6- 8 . Chapter 7: 20 says the waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered,....." so the terrain was fairly Flat before the flood. There was no Grand Canyon or Pikes' Peak back then.
I want to make sure I understand your point but first let me say I too believe it was a world wide flood.

 

Are you saying that the water rose 15 cubits thus covering the mountains?

 

 

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