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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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Origen

Poll Question: Perpetual Virginity of Mary?

Poll Question: Perpetual Virginity of Mary?  

15 members have voted

  1. 1. Poll Question: Perpetual Virginity of Mary?



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The fact that the Fathers, many of whom read, wrote, and spoke Greek as a a native language, which is far better than knowing it secondarily as our so-called "linguistic scholar" claims, and yet also believed in Mary's ever Virginity, and the fact that that was backed up by Luther and even Zwingli, along with the 2nd Helvetic Confession... Lets just say I trust their scholarship far more than our "linguistic scholar". I put those words in quotes, not to insult, but simply to question the extreme pomposity of a person who puts the claims of his own knowledge over 2,000 years of Church history, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. I am willing to understand that there can be debates about many things. But to be rude in the manner that you have been is simply beyond call, in my mind. I am not particularly fond of Roman Catholicism after having survived it for 19 years. I consider the office of the Papacy to be an example of an anti-Christ. But anyone who is silly enough to challenge the Fathers... well, they get very little respect from me. Martin Luther, was careful not to do that. Even Zwingli and Calvin thought they were interpreting the Fathers correctly. I may thoroughly disagree with Zwingli on most points, and with Calvin on some. But at least they knew where they were coming from. You have no historical background for your claims at all. The Church does have a history that continues after aD 96. And it doesn't suddenly stop, and pick pick up again in 1517. Yes, there were problems, I shan't dispute that, and men like Luther were sent to correct those, but to suggest that there was NO Christian truth at all in the Catholic Church is insanity.

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The fact that the Fathers, many of whom read, wrote, and spoke Greek as a a native language, which is far better than knowing it secondarily as our so-called "linguistic scholar" claims, and yet also believed in Mary's ever Virginity, and the fact that that was backed up by Luther and even Zwingli, along with the 2nd Helvetic Confession... Lets just say I trust their scholarship far more than our "linguistic scholar". I put those words in quotes, not to insult, but simply to question the extreme pomposity of a person who puts the claims of his own knowledge over 2,000 years of Church history, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. I am willing to understand that there can be debates about many things. But to be rude in the manner that you have been is simply beyond call, in my mind. I am not particularly fond of Roman Catholicism after having survived it for 19 years. I consider the office of the Papacy to be an example of an anti-Christ. But anyone who is silly enough to challenge the Fathers... well, they get very little respect from me. Martin Luther, was careful not to do that. Even Zwingli and Calvin thought they were interpreting the Fathers correctly. I may thoroughly disagree with Zwingli on most points, and with Calvin on some. But at least they knew where they were coming from. You have no historical background for your claims at all. The Church does have a history that continues after aD 96. And it doesn't suddenly stop, and pick pick up again in 1517. Yes, there were problems, I shan't dispute that, and men like Luther were sent to correct those, but to suggest that there was NO Christian truth at all in the Catholic Church is insanity.
None of this addresses the topic. Your argument amount to nothing more than this, they said it so you believe it. No evidence, no examples, no arguments, no discussion of Greek grammar, vocabulary, or syntax. Wow! That must have taken a great deal of research in order for you to come up with absolutely nothing. That is impressive.

 

anyone who is silly enough to challenge the Fathers...well, they get very little respect from me.
I wonder if anyone ever said that to Luther, Zwingli, or Calvin. Maybe Luther would say:
Unless I am convinced by proofs from Scriptures or by plain and clear reasons and arguments, I can and will not retract, for it is neither safe nor wise to do anything against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen."
Yeah, that sounds right to me. I will go with that rather than simply accepting the church fathers because they said or believed something. Edited by Origen
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I make it plain to all and also to my congregation that I affirm the perpetual virginity of Mary. In fact, our Lutheran Confessions also affirm it. In the Latin version of the Smalcald Articles she is "ever-Virgin" and in other places such as in the German version of the Formula of Concord there is an argument to say that they also affirm this.

 

But this should come as no surprise considering that the Reformers believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary.

 

But, however, there are modernists in every corner of the Church so now we have people who think of Mary as having other children after Jesus.

 

From a purely Lutheran perspective, I have always found it interesting that modern day Lutherans will split over things like whether or not one can be a boy scout or if one can pray with a dying family member from another denomination, but leave the very important theological matter of Jesus' mother out of it. Personally, I would consider a doctrine such as Mary's perpetual virginity to be more important, and I think it should be a matter of fellowship, because it helps us weed out modernism from the Church.

 

 

 

 

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I make it plain to all and also to my congregation that I affirm the perpetual virginity of Mary. In fact, our Lutheran Confessions also affirm it. In the Latin version of the Smalcald Articles she is "ever-Virgin" and in other places such as in the German version of the Formula of Concord there is an argument to say that they also affirm this.

 

But this should come as no surprise considering that the Reformers believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary.

 

But, however, there are modernists in every corner of the Church so now we have people who think of Mary as having other children after Jesus.

 

From a purely Lutheran perspective, I have always found it interesting that modern day Lutherans will split over things like whether or not one can be a boy scout or if one can pray with a dying family member from another denomination, but leave the very important theological matter of Jesus' mother out of it. Personally, I would consider a doctrine such as Mary's perpetual virginity to be more important, and I think it should be a matter of fellowship, because it helps us weed out modernism from the Church.

 

 

 

But what biblical proof do they point to to support this doctrine?

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Again, ORIGEN, I trust someone who knew Greek better than you do. And who in general was a better thinker, without biases and prejudices derived from complete lack of knowledge of Church history. Your entire inability to comprehend even the most basic of concepts is little short of astounding.

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Thread is closed. Members can still vote. Please read our board rules to prevent future thread closings:

 

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