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Norjak71

Am I the only one that condones abortion?

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Allow me to prefice this by saying I know what a controversial topic this is, and I know about the option to give your baby up for adoption, but for some this is not achievable or will be frowned upon by family and friends. I'm just saying, I would rather perform an abortion at a very early stage, than have a baby you can't care for, provide for financially or give a good life. I know a few people that have had abortions and as tough of a decision as it is, they never regretted it and are very happy in their personal lives. I don't believe that someone else should have the right to tell other people what they can or can't do with their own bodies. Does anyone agree with this, or have any insight onto this? Don't attack me, let's have a rational debate here. Look forward to hearing from you guys.

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Allow me to prefice this by saying I know what a controversial topic this is, and I know about the option to give your baby up for adoption, but for some this is not achievable or will be frowned upon by family and friends. I'm just saying, I would rather perform an abortion at a very early stage, than have a baby you can't care for, provide for financially or give a good life. I know a few people that have had abortions and as tough of a decision as it is, they never regretted it and are very happy in their personal lives. I don't believe that someone else should have the right to tell other people what they can or can't do with their own bodies. Does anyone agree with this, or have any insight onto this? Don't attack me, let's have a rational debate here. Look forward to hearing from you guys.

 

So your basis for supporting an abortion is money and what you judge as a good life before life even has the opportunity to live out life? You realize that minorities make up the large part of statistical poverty? You don't believe that someone else should have the right to tell other people what they can or can't do with their own bodies? When the mother murders herself it is called suicide. Do you think it wrong to condemn suicide? The baby is not her body, but when murdered is called an abortion. You believe the mother should have the right to play God over the body and life of the baby? And the mother has the right to sacrifice the innocent before her altar of self?

 

In America, abortion is easily affordable and achievable. Planned Parenthood has made it possible for you to donate your money to eradicate children based on race, or what you consider worthy of life.

 

 

On blacks, immigrants and indigents:

 

"...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born." Margaret Sanger, Pivot of Civilization, referring to immigrants and poor people

 

On sterilization & racial purification:

 

Sanger believed that, for the purpose of racial "purification," couples should be rewarded who chose sterilization. Birth Control in America, The Career of Margaret Sanger, by David Kennedy, p. 117, quoting a 1923 Sanger speech.

 

On the right of married couples to bear children:

 

Couples should be required to submit applications to have a child, she wrote in her "Plan for Peace." Birth Control Review, April 1932

 

On the purpose of birth control:

 

The purpose in promoting birth control was "to create a race of thoroughbreds," she wrote in the Birth Control Review, Nov. 1921 (p. 2)

 

On the rights of the handicapped and mentally ill, and racial minorities:

 

"More children from the fit, less from the unfit -- that is the chief aim of birth control." Birth Control Review, May 1919, p. 12

 

On religious convictions regarding sex outside of marriage:

 

"This book aims to answer the needs expressed in thousands on thousands of letters to me in the solution of marriage problems... Knowledge of sex truths frankly and plainly presented cannot possibly injure healthy, normal, young minds. Concealment, suppression, futile attempts to veil the unveilable - these work injury, as they seldom succeed and only render those who indulge in them ridiculous. For myself, I have full confidence in the cleanliness, the open-mindedness, the promise of the younger generation." Margaret Sanger, Happiness in Marriage (Bretano's, New York, 1927)

 

On the extermination of blacks:

 

"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population," she said, "if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America, by Linda Gordon

 

On respecting the rights of the mentally ill:

 

In her "Plan for Peace," Sanger outlined her strategy for eradication of those she deemed "feebleminded." Among the steps included in her evil scheme were immigration restrictions; compulsory sterilization; segregation to a lifetime of farm work; etc. Birth Control Review, April 1932, p. 107

On adultery:

 

A woman's physical satisfaction was more important than any marriage vow, Sanger believed. Birth Control in America, p. 11

 

On marital sex:

 

"The marriage bed is the most degenerating influence in the social order," Sanger said. (p. 23) [Quite the opposite of God's view on the matter: "Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled; but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." (Hebrews 13:4)

 

On abortion:

 

"Criminal' abortions arise from a perverted sex relationship under the stress of economic necessity, and their greatest frequency is among married women." The Woman Rebel - No Gods, No Masters, May 1914, Vol. 1, No. 3.

 

On the YMCA and YWCA:

 

"...brothels of the Spirit and morgues of Freedom!"), The Woman Rebel - No Gods, No Masters, May 1914, Vol. 1, No. 3.

On the Catholic Church's view of contraception:

"...enforce SUBJUGATION by TURNING WOMAN INTO A MERE INCUBATOR." The Woman Rebel - No Gods, No Masters, May 1914, Vol. 1, No. 3.

 

On motherhood:

 

"I cannot refrain from saying that women must come to recognize there is some function of womanhood other than being a child-bearing machine." What Every Girl Should Know, by Margaret Sanger (Max Maisel, Publisher, 1915) [Jesus said: "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep... for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, Blessed (happy) are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts which never gave suck." (Luke 23:24)]

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You are definitely not alone in feeling this way. Personally, I have experienced an abortion. It is not an easy task. I think people forget that we are human and have said the negative thoughts people spew from their mouths a thousand times over. People already know what they're doing is seen as a terrible thing. Sometimes it's necessary. In my case, I could not financially support a child and I was on birth control while having sex. Things happen and I was not in a position to bring a child into the world. Adoption? Majority of my family is adopted and I came from a pretty terrible situation. Putting a child into the system is terrible.

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You are definitely not alone in feeling this way. Personally, I have experienced an abortion. It is not an easy task. I think people forget that we are human and have said the negative thoughts people spew from their mouths a thousand times over. People already know what they're doing is seen as a terrible thing. Sometimes it's necessary. In my case, I could not financially support a child and I was on birth control while having sex. Things happen and I was not in a position to bring a child into the world. Adoption? Majority of my family is adopted and I came from a pretty terrible situation. Putting a child into the system is terrible.

 

And you have no regret about the life lost to your decisions? You don't feel any shame whatsoever, and you wouldn't hesitate to promote abortion on a Christian board?

  • Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

 

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Here is a thought. If you are not financially, or emotionally, ready to bring a child into this world then you should not be having sex. Once you have a child growing within you it is no longer a decision that just pertains to you, it now also pertains to this new life which belongs as much to God as you do. By aborting the pregnancy you are basically saying to God that you don't care what His plans were for this child, you just don't want to go through the hassle of bringing the child to full term.

 

Yes, there are cases where children are not better off, per se, having gone through the foster care system, but God is able to use anyone for His will.

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From a pure Biblical perspective (this is Christ Forums), I don't see any way to get around the fact that someone was alive and then is dead ... that sounds like murder to me.

 

Abortion is not the 'unforgivable sin' and should be taken seriously, but not at the expense of our witness. God is about Love and Truth. We need to stand for both.

 

Like divorce, abortion is something whose only appropriate response is tears. It is a tragedy and a loss. It cannot ever be treated as nothing. Those who have gone through either (divorce or abortion) have my sympathy.

 

@Norjak71 sorry, but I can't agree with you. Killing a baby is never OK. At the absolute best, like to save the life of a mother, it might be medically necessary. However it is ALWAYS a tragedy and a time for mourning. In our society, it is almost always about a baby paying for the sin of its parents, making it a double tragedy. So "OK" isn't how I feel about it.

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No, you are not alone. To be honest I am still not really sure where I stand here. It is product of my work, too, though, and I think that matters. I know the Bible teachings and all of that, and human life is sacred, but when you are confronted with certain situations that happen out there, you cannot help but think about. It is certainly a tough issue, and this is evident almost everywhere you look, but I don't think that should stand in the way of honest and open discussions. For that, I say thank you for sharing.

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Here's a fairly recent statement by Melody Green concerning the personhood of an unborn child, and the need for adoption instead of abortion (from her homepage earlier this year):

 

"A baby is cradled / carried in the womb of it's mother, to grow and be nurtured until birth. Each baby is a
wholly separate person
from it's mother: With different DNA, different fingerprints, with possibly a different blood type or the opposite sex. The baby is
a person living within a person
and NOT "the mother's body". The mom is appointed to care for the separate life she carries within her and once it's born, find a home for her baby, if she can't provide one."-- Melody Green

 

 

I was 16 yrs old when "Roe" become the law of the land, and I could find nothing wrong with it whatsoever (in fact, I thought it was great :rolleyes:). Of course, I was a non-Christian teenager who wanted to have sex (but had, up until that point, chosen not to because I worried about getting someone pregnant and what would happen to me if I did). Well, "Roe" made quick work of that, because it took the worry about getting pregnant off the table.

 

And I remained a faithful Pro-Abortion person until the day I became a Christian because I never gave a moment's thought to1) the unborn child and the loss of his or her life, or2) the fact that I was giving hardy approval to a practice that destroyed the life of one made in God's image (Genesis 1:26-27), and one whose life and formation in the womb God was so intimately involved with (Psalm 139:13-16).

 

The first question I normally ask those who are both "Christian" and "Pro-Choice" is, "how do you justify being both of those at the same time". However, I think I'd rather ask you guys a new question instead,which part of abortion do you see as being, "Christian", and why do you believe it is"?

 

Remember, far more than 99% of all the abortions performed since "Roe" were done simply for the sake of the mother's convenience, not because there was a risk to her health or to her life.

 

Thanks!

 

Yours and His,

David

 

 

"He [John the Baptist] will be filled with the Holy Spirit

while yet in his mother’s womb"

Luke 1:15

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Lee
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The issue is very simply. Except to save the mother's life, if you believe that the unborn is an innocent human being, then there can be no moral justification for an abortion. No one's personal preference can override a moral imperative.

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....if you believe that the unborn is an innocent human being, then there can be no moral justification for an abortion.

 

So what say you Christian, "Pro-Choicers", do you believe an unborn child is an innocent human being, or do you believe something else?

 

Thanks!

 

--David

 

 

 

 

"When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby

leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was

filled with the Holy Spirit"

Luke 1:41

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Lee
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Allow me to prefice this by saying I know what a controversial topic this is, and I know about the option to give your baby up for adoption, but for some this is not achievable or will be frowned upon by family and friends. I'm just saying, I would rather perform an abortion at a very early stage, than have a baby you can't care for, provide for financially or give a good life. I know a few people that have had abortions and as tough of a decision as it is, they never regretted it and are very happy in their personal lives. I don't believe that someone else should have the right to tell other people what they can or can't do with their own bodies. Does anyone agree with this, or have any insight onto this? Don't attack me, let's have a rational debate here. Look forward to hearing from you guys.

 

I agree. I don't agree with late-term abortion, because at that point the baby is alive. Women SHOULD be able to do what they want with their bodies.

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I agree. I don't agree with late-term abortion, because at that point the baby is alive. Women SHOULD be able to do what they want with their bodies.

 

Hi AGoW, how do we determine the point of gestation when the unborn child moves from dead to alive?

 

Thanks!

 

--David

 

 

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For me, part of it comes down to the fact that you are unable to make a determination of what kind of life the unborn child will have. You may think that you are not ready to be a parent (in which case preventative measures should have been taken beforehand), that you are unable to financially support a child (FYI: my parents did it with 4 kids and under $30k/year), or any other myriad of reasons why a person would try and justify an abortion. If the person having the abortion is a Christian, they should be more concerned with what the Bible teaches than whether or not family or friends will be offended if they put the baby up for adoption. I think the issue that needs answered here is not whether or not society has a right to tell someone what to do with their body, but rather whether or not the Bible has a right to tell someone what to do with their body. According to the Bible, abortion is wrong, which I literally take to mean at ANY point after conception, not after whatever stage. Christian's are fine with using preventative measures, so that is the route that should be taken. If a believer ends up pregnant while using protection, then that is Gods way of saying it is time for you to become a parent (even if you give the child up for adoption you are still now a parent). In my opinion, this issue is far too often looked at from a secular viewpoint and not based on the teachings of the Bible, which allows for some wiggle room.

 

Quote from Ronald Raegan: "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born." In the end, I feel you are correct that other people should not have the right to tell you what you can do with your body in terms of abortion, that is between you and God. However, if abortion is to be argued under this premise, then it needs to be carried to the extreme... If society has no right to dictate what can be done with someone's body, then all drugs need to be legalized, suicide can't be illegal, and people should be legally allowed to walk around naked in public if they so desire.

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I don't agree with late-term abortion, because at that point the baby is alive. Women SHOULD be able to do what they want with their bodies.
First, it is alive at the moment of conception. Second, the baby is not the woman's body. DNA proves that. Take a biology course. Edited by Origen
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Quote from Ronald Raegan: "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
I like that.
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Allow me to prefice this by saying I know what a controversial topic this is, and I know about the option to give your baby up for adoption, but for some this is not achievable or will be frowned upon by family and friends. I'm just saying, I would rather perform an abortion at a very early stage, than have a baby you can't care for, provide for financially or give a good life. I know a few people that have had abortions and as tough of a decision as it is, they never regretted it and are very happy in their personal lives. I don't believe that someone else should have the right to tell other people what they can or can't do with their own bodies. Does anyone agree with this, or have any insight onto this? Don't attack me, let's have a rational debate here. Look forward to hearing from you guys.

 

May I use your reasoning on a 2 year old? May I use the very same wording that you did to make a case for killing a 2 year old?

Edited by thatbrian
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May I uses your reasoning on a 2 year old? May I use the very same wording that you did to make a case for killing a 2 year old?

 

That is an important question to address, because after birth abortion is being argued in the United States now, but is most popular in the Netherlands where it has grabbed the most traction.

 

God bless,

William

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That is an important question to address, because after birth abortion is being argued in the United States now, but is most popular in the Netherlands where it has grabbed the most traction.

 

God bless,

William

 

 

I'm shocked, but not surprised. Sadly, it looks like the US will follow in their footsteps.

 

How are there Christians acting as apologists for abortion?! I mean abortion on demand, for any reason. It's inconceivable to me that a person who claims Christ would also defend or promote the idea of killing children. As much as I would like to know their reasoning, I'm not certain I would have the stomach for listening to it.

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I'm shocked, but not surprised. Sadly, it looks like the US will follow in their footsteps.

 

How are there Christians acting as apologists for abortion?! I mean abortion on demand, for any reason. It's inconceivable to me that a person who claims Christ would also defend or promote the idea of killing children. As much as I would like to know their reasoning, I'm not certain I would have the stomach for listening to it.

 

You and me both. Just realize that not everybody posting as advocates for abortion on this board are Christian. At least their profile information doesn't yet reveal that. I have a firm conviction against pro abortionist. And my convictions are so strong I will walk across the street to kick a dead dog. :cool:

 

This is a Christian/Protestant board. And what you just shared actually strengthens my convictions on moderating a board to a certain standard. Another words, I wouldn't expect you to stomach it on this board. That is, someone claiming Christ would promote such an atrocity.

 

To you Christians promoting abortion on this board:

 

 

God bless,

William

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You and me both. Just realize that not everybody posting as advocates for abortion on this board are Christian. At least their profile information doesn't yet reveal that. I have a firm conviction against pro abortionist. And my convictions are so strong I will walk across the street to kick a dead dog. :cool:

 

This is a Christian/Protestant board. And what you just shared actually strengthens my convictions on moderating a board to a certain standard. Another words, I wouldn't expect you to stomach it on this board. That is, someone claiming Christ would promote such an atrocity.

 

To you Christians promoting abortion on this board:

 

 

God bless,

William

 

I'm glad to hear that you wont allow people here to wave a Christian flag in one hand and a pro-abortion flag in the other.

 

Other forums tend to be heavy-handed in moderating the conservative Christians while letting Liberal ideologies go unchallenged, mirroring what's going on in the US today, I suppose.

Edited by thatbrian
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I would suggest that Christ would be better served by defending God's point of view using God's words and allowing the Holy Spirit to do what He does best (change hearts and minds), rather than running the dissenters out of Dodge City.

 

I have yet to find God's word or people inadequate for defending His case if given a level playing field.

(and given five smooth stones, a sling and God's blessing ... all bets are off).

God Bless All.

Arthur

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Allow me to prefice this by saying I know what a controversial topic this is, and I know about the option to give your baby up for adoption, but for some this is not achievable or will be frowned upon by family and friends. I'm just saying, I would rather perform an abortion at a very early stage, than have a baby you can't care for, provide for financially or give a good life. I know a few people that have had abortions and as tough of a decision as it is, they never regretted it and are very happy in their personal lives. I don't believe that someone else should have the right to tell other people what they can or can't do with their own bodies. Does anyone agree with this, or have any insight onto this? Don't attack me, let's have a rational debate here. Look forward to hearing from you guys.

 

Instead of bashing you, Norjack, I want to acknowledge that it's clear you really feel that abortion can improve lives that might otherwise be ruined. You genuinely sound concerned that a child might have to grow up in a poor quality life or a woman's life might be ruined.

 

The reason Christians believe abortions is wrong goes beyond that, though, because Christians believe life begins at conception. The sperm meets the egg, and that's life. A deliberate termination of life is murder - that's what negates the other arguments.

 

Should you murder someone if it is likely they are going to have an unpleasant life ahead of them?

Should you murder someone if they might screw up your quality of life?

 

The bottom line is that it has nothing to do with "people can do what they want with their own bodies." It's no longer about their bodies; it's about another human life.

 

That said, I have the utmost compassion for women in these predicaments, especially who receive censure or are called "baby murderers." I've had conversations with women about to have abortions; I've talked with women who've had them. And women who've regretted their abortions, and women who haven't. I'm very compassionate in my conversations, and I will direct them to Christian pregnancy care centers and other resources, and I will be there as a friend the whole time if they will have me - but I will never say that what they did is okay. If human life begins at conception, then a sperm fused with an egg has the same value as a child or an adult, and intentionally terminating it is not an option.

 

Anyway, I appreciate your willingness to bring up this controversial topic!

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Should you murder someone if it is likely they are going to have an unpleasant life ahead of them?

Should you murder someone if they might screw up your quality of life?

 

The bottom line is that it has nothing to do with "people can do what they want with their own bodies." It's no longer about their bodies; it's about another human life.

 

Thanks Listener, you make some very important points :)

 

 

 

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Sometimes it's necessary. In my case, I could not financially support a child and I was on birth control while having sex. Things happen and I was not in a position to bring a child into the world.

 

Taking "precautions" is not germane to the issue of whether or not you were entitled to take the life of an innocent human being. The long and the short of it is you took a calculated risk and failed...

 

Adoption? Majority of my family is adopted and I came from a pretty terrible situation. Putting a child into the system is terrible.

 

... You seek to justify your decision by contending there was a good chance the baby would face a fate worse than death in the hands of "the system". Statistically speaking you had a greater chance of getting pregnant than that child had of being destroyed by adoptive parents or foster care. What's more, you could have played an integral part in making sure your baby was adopted by a Christian family. Granted even this would not necessarily have insured that the unborn child wouldn't suffer, but as far as suffering goes, it's an unavoidable part of life. In the fellowship of suffering we are given the opportunity to cultivate deeper empathy and compassion for our neighbor.

 

Philippians 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed unto his death;

 

I'm not casting stones. The fullness of forgiveness and grace are yours for the asking. To be clear what I take issue with is your justification of an injustice... one of the most grievous of trespasses one can perpetrate against a neighbor. When we repent we recognize and "turn from" our sin. Your answer not only says you'd do nothing different if presented with the same "luck of the draw", it tells others they are and/or would be justified doing the same.

 

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 I now rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye were made sorry unto repentance; for ye were made sorry after a godly sort, that ye might suffer loss by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation, [a repentance] which bringeth no regret: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

 

 

 

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You know, I have thought much on this matter. In certain parts of the State of Minnesota, if I shoot and kill a pregnant woman and her baby, I can be charged with double murder.If SHE kills her baby, it is her legal right. HUH?! Am I the ONLY one who sees a logical disconnect here?

 

You know, the saddest part of all this, is that the kind of abortions most Americans might have sympathy for, the "hard luck cases", like rape, incest, or danger to the mother's life, they make up exactly 8% of all abortions each year. A whopping 92% are performed FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF THE MOTHER. So you have to fully ask yourself, how messed up are our priorities as a nation when we say that we can support a murder rate that has gotten almost to the level of Chairman Mao Tse-tung?

 

And straight up, this argument of," I was using birth control and it didn't work, ergo I had an abortion", simply doesn't work. The LCMS allows the use of birth control, reluctantly, after much prayer by husband and wife. Now, my wife is on the Pill for medical reasons, and has been for many years before I met her. But she also takes anti-biotics frequently as she often gets strep. And anyone knows that the pill doesn't work as well when you're taking an anti-biotic. So during those times and for some time after, we have to add a condom.

 

But the fact is that, if she became pregnant, we would be duty-bound by God and Mother Church to have the baby. Abortion, like any other murder, is NOT an option. What it amounts to, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the following: If you don't want kids, and can't be bothered to worry whether or not you or your wife (I won't begin to discuss non-marital sex, as that is the topic of a different thread) get pregnant, then you need to NOT be married and having relations. I married my wife knowing there would be no children. Well, God must have found my plans rather humourous, because now we are raising our 16-year-old niece. We have been very careful to not get pregnant, but if that DID happen, then it would be a blessing.

 

Abortion is killing. What is worse is that it is the killing of innocent life, life that has done nothing short of being created by the need of its father and mother to "take care of their needs". I apologise for the slightly harsh terms, but lets be truly honest. How, in the name of Heaven, can you kill a baby for your own needs.

 

Abortion is evil. And the tolerance our nation has displayed for it, will eventually come back to haunt us. And may God help us all when it does.

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