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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

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What is the believer to be mostly assured of in the Faith?—“eternal salvation.” Nothing within the biblical doctrine of Soteriology can have even a scintilla of meaning if it rests apart from supporting the truth that “He who promised is faithful” (vs 23). “Promised” what? What in all existence has the greatest significance? Is it not endless fellowship with God! Thus, eternal life—via salvation—is the most important promise.

 

The two most often discussed issues on this subject are when the gift of eternal life becomes a reality within the Christian, and the concept of losing this gift. Firstly, there can be no doubt that salvation begins at the point of faith received, otherwise there can be no other possible explanation concerning its chronological initiation. Secondly, how could it stand to reason to perceive that anything about salvation is temporal, and even if this were possible, that God gives temporal salvation to anyone, since it means “to be eternally redeemed”? This would be to either doubt God’s omniscience concerning His foreknowledge of individuals as to whether or not they will remain in it; or to misunderstand omniscience, or to be uninformed concerning the fact that God possesses omniscience.

 

Faith in the provisions of these truths hold a greater meaning in this life than in the next, “for why does one still hope for what he sees (Rom 8:24)? As it is written, “We walk by faith, not by sight” (2Cor 5:7), and sight in the next life will then be the connection instead of faith now. The greatest difficulty, due to it being the most important for maturity, is that of releasing one’s own trust in self in order to see the security in the Father’s hand (true even if not realized – John 10:29) for all who are His! I say the greatest difficulty, because it is when all we’ve come to believe in concerning Christ’s mediation is tested and exercised the most, which is simple dependence on Christ’s expiation concerning our “old man” (sin source) and its sins.

 

It abides well to realize that all the guilt incurred is not from sins or sinning, but from the possession (by association) of the sin source, which is to say that even if one could stop sinning altogether, the curse of guilt would yet abide within, due to the ever-present (Rom 7:17, 18, 20; Gal 5:17) source. Faith is at its pinnacle of glorifying God when exercised in “full assurance” of the Lord Jesus’ Cross-work while coexisting (but never coalescing) with the sinful Adamic nature.

 

- NC

 

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It would seem that if this was true, one becomes saved they cant lose their salvation, it would of always been true, yet God has this to say in the old testament:

 

Ezekial 18

 

24 “But if a righteous person turnsfrom their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

 

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life.28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die.29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

 

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the SovereignLord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

 

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It would seem that if this was true, one becomes saved they cant lose their salvation, it would of always been true, yet God has this to say in the old testament:

 

Ezekial 18

 

24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

 

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life.28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die.29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

 

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

 

Then if you commit any sin and die before you can confess it, you will be damned.

Is that your belief?

It seems the unavoidable logical consequence of your argument.

 

 

 

I see Ezekial 18 as speaking more like Romans in addressing human complains about Godly wisdom.

On the one hand, a man cannot "say Lord, Lord" or "kill a lamb" and then go on living like an enemy of God and think that they will escape judgement because they are 'forgiven'. - thus the saved have no reason for arrogant pride.

On the other hand, God is fully able and willing to forgive any man, however base his sin, who genuinely repents. - thus the lost need never loose hope.

 

Can a man really receive a new heart, be given the gift of faith, answer the call of God, be made a new creation, receive the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing his inheritance ... all promised by God in the Bible ... and go back to living a sin filled life as if nothing had happened.

How pathetic and impotent a god that would be. That is not the God that called me from my life of sin, indwelt me and changed me from the inside out.

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It would seem that if this was true, one becomes saved they cant lose their salvation, it would of always been true, yet God has this to say in the old testament:

 

Ezekial 18

 

24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

 

Since "there are none righteous," the phrase "a righteous man" is a hyperbolic expression and must design the sense of what one may consider himself to be. Were there ever one truly righteous in his own self, he would never commit iniquity, as the passage shows he could.

 

I think it best to show this:

 

John Gill: But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness,.... "This is to be understood, not of a truly righteous man; for no man can be so denominated from his own righteousness; but from the righteousness and obedience of God; and such a man cannot turn from His righteousness; for that is the righteousness of God, and can never be lost; and is an everlasting one, and will always endure; and with which eternal life is inseparably connected.

 

"But this is to be interpreted of one that is reckoned so from his own righteousness, what he himself has done, and not from another, from the righteousness of God, which He has wrought out; he is one that is righteous in his own esteem, and in the account of others; who is outwardly righteous before men; who trusts in himself that he is righteous, and trusts to his own righteousness; see Ezekiel 33:13; whose righteousness is not an evangelical one, but either a ceremonial righteousness, or at most a mere moral one, consisting of some negative holiness, and a few moral performances, as appears from Ezekiel 18:5; and from such a righteousness as this a man may turn, commit iniquity, sin and die; see 2 Peter 2:20; and is no proof or instance of the apostasy of real saints, true believers, or truly righteous men; besides, this man is represented as a transgressor, or "prevaricator," as the word signifies; a hypocrite, a man destitute of the truth of grace, and of true righteousness."

 

Blessings

 

 

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I find it very interesting that i quote God almighty Himself talking about how people can lose their salvation (at least in the old testament) and people argue that it can not be true. It is black and white what God says there.

 

I never said that if man commits one sin and dies he goes to hell, and neighter did God in Ezekial 18.

 

If you disagree,with God so be it, thats between you and God. I would much rather try to come to God's point of view.

 

Now, in reguards to there are none rightous, thats what the sacrifices in the old testament were for, Jesus dying on the cross in the new testament. Even if we try with a our might we can not be perfect and God knows that.

 

 

 

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I find it very interesting that i quote God almighty Himself talking about how people can lose their salvation (at least in the old testament) and people argue that it can not be true. It is black and white what God says there.

 

 

Hi Serpardum, I'm sure you would say that we come into possession eternal life by faith, not by works, right? But here in Ezekiel, "life" (and "death") seems to be a matter of what we "do", not Who we trust and have faith in (or what 'God' has done)! Do you think it's possible that there may be more going on here than your interpretation of Ezekiel's words, based on NT principles, can account for?

 

 

I never said that if man commits one sin and dies he goes to hell, and neither did God in Ezekiel 18.

 

 

But that's exactly what God said through the pen of James, isn't it?

 

 

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in
one
point, he has become
guilty of all
.

11 For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder,
you have become a transgressor of the law.
~James 2

 

 

Our salvation is utterly dependent upon the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and on God's gracious promise to save us on the basis of what He did for us alone. What "we" do is not in view.

 

Yours and His,

David

 

 

"To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies

the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness"

Romans 4:5

 

 

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Yes, i am in transgression of the law, as stated, so i ask god/jesus for forgiveness. I can agree that one of our interpretations of ezwkial is wrong because does not Jesus twll ua that not just calling his name saves us but doing the will of his father in heaven? Does not paul tell us that after we come to the knowledge of salvation and willfully sin we have a fearful looking forward to the day of judgement? Are we not told not to be deceived but sinneres shall not enter tge kingdom of god? Are we not told in revelation that these shall not enter the kingdom of god, thieves, all liers, etc?

 

Perhaps you err in that you confuse not sinning with works? Or do you concider works and not sinning as the same thing? Perhaps thats where this discussion should go.

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............does not Jesus tell us that not just calling his name saves us but doing the will of his father in heaven?

 

 

Hi Serpardum, I donno, here are but a few examples, so you tell me ;)

 

 

"God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever
believes
in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." ~John 3:16

 

“He who
believes
in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ~John 3:18

 

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and
believes
Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." ~John 5:24

 

"This is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and
believes
in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” ~John 6:40

 

"These have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by
believing
you may have life in His name." ~John 20.31

 

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and
believe
in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart man
believes
, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." ~Romans 10:9-10

 

"These things I have written to you who
believe
in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." ~1 John 5:13

 

 

So, do we obey the Father and do His will to become saved, or do we obey the Father and do His will because we ALREADY ARE saved, IOW, because we already are Christians?

 

St. Paul tells us that a non-Christian is dead spiritually (Ephesians 2:1-3) and that such a person, IOW, "a natural man ... does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." (1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

How can a man or woman who is "dead" spiritually, who does not "know" Christ, who cannot understand or accept the things of God because they are "foolishness" to him/her, who is not indwelt or empowered by the HS, and who is not in possession of the "mind of Christ", EVER get to the point that they can figure out what God's will is for their life and obey Him unto salvation??

 

//////////

 

I believe you are referring to Matthew 7:21-23 above, so let's take a look at that too.

 

 

21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23 And then I will declare to them,
‘I never
knew
you
; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' ~Matthew 7

 

 

Verse 21 tells us that (as you said above) entering the kingdom of heaven requires more than simply calling Him "Lord", or "claiming" to be a Christian, rather, it's the ones who demonstrate that they are Christians that we know have made it.

 

But how can this be? The Bible clearly tells us that we are saved by "believing" (see again the verses I posited above), IOW, by "grace through faith", and not by what we "do"? (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5)

 

Could it be that v21 is describing a "characteristic" that is common among those who have entered the kingdom of heaven RATHER than the "condition" or "requirement" to get in? Check out the rest of the passage, IOW, v22-23. The folks in v22 seem to be obeying God, in fact, they seem like SUPER-Christians, don't they? But much to their surprise, they find out they were NEVER saved. Why? (hint, see what's written in bold in v23 above).

 

WOW, this has gone on far longer than I had planned. I'll stop here for now and finish the rest later. Sorry about that.

 

Yours in Christ,

David

 

 

 

 

 

“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true

God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent"

John 17:3

 

 

 

 

 

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It seems you are interpreting the word believe the same way we would faith. To believe in jesus does not simply mean to think that he is the messiah, it means to follow his teachings. If you "believe" jesus then you will do as he teaches, orherwise you do not believe in him. Jesus says not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God will go to heaven but those that do the will of his father. Do you believe that or not? If you believe in Jesus you will believe all his teachings and follow them, other wise you dont believe him, do you?

 

You either believe Jesus or you dont. If you believe in Jesus you believe and follow his teachings. If you do not follow his teachings then you dont believe in him.

 

Being saved is not simply understanding that Jesus is the Messiah. We are told even the demons believe that and tremble.

 

Perhaps if you interpreted "believe" as "believe and obey" you would suddenly find all these apparrnt contradictions you have to explain away disappear.

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So, do we obey the Father and do His will to become saved, or do we obey the Father and do His will because we ALREADY ARE saved, IOW, because we already are Christians?

 

Only one option is the Protestant answer, I hear an echo of a long ago rallying cry, Soli Deo Gloria!!!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n21921[/ATTACH]

clap.gif.31e79a90f1fa2eb16f96889434d8b1bc.gif

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Perhaps if you interpreted "believe" as "believe and obey" you would suddenly find all these apparrnt contradictions you have to explain away disappear.

 

St_Worm2 hasn't laid one contradiction down. But it appears that your works based righteousness juggles between Catholicism and Protestantism. To harmonize both Paul and James, may I suggest that faith is an "action based on belief sustained by confidence in God"?

 

Think about St_Worm2's previous signature:

 

Simul Justus et Peccator

 

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

 

If I were to read Calvin's quote out of context, I'd say the second part of that statement reiterates the object of our faith that Saves us, Jesus Christ. Do you agree?

 

Is it your intent to rob God of partial Glory for your salvation, or can I hear Soli Deo Gloria! [ATTACH=CONFIG]n21923[/ATTACH]

 

God bless,

William

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Lets make it simple.

 

You are saying that that not sinning is not a part of salvation because not sinning is works, correct?

 

If this is true then repentance would not be a part of salvation because that would be works.

 

Not sinning, doing works. Can you see the difference? One is not doing something, one is doing something.

 

So if we look at it this way then repentance is not works and their is no contradiction.

 

You say you believe Jesus, right? So do you believe Jesus when he told the man to follow the commansments to get to heaven? Yes or no.

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Lets make it simple.

 

You are saying that not sinning is not a part of salvation because not sinning is works, correct?*

 

Hi Serpardum, no, that's not what we're saying at all.

 

What we are saying is that salvation is all about Him, what He did for us, and what He continues to do for us. It's about Him, it's not about us.

 

Good works are things that we do BECAUSE we are His "workmanship", because we are(already),"in Christ" .. Ephesians 2:10. God made us into completely, "new creatures", in His Son (2 Corinthians 5:17) when He saved us, and we choose to please Him now (IOW, we choose to obey Him, to do good works, to NOT sin.....)BECAUSE of the change God wrought in us.

 

*We choose to "not sin" because we "are" Christians, not to become Christians.

 

He changed our hearts (Ezekiel 36:26) and in doing so, caused us to be "born again" .. John 3:3. EVERYTHING that we do as Christians, everything that is pleasing to Him, FLOWS from that change and, of course, from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is not about us and what we do for Him, it's all about Him and what He did for us (as the 5 "Solas" of the Reformation attest).

 

 

  1. Sola Fide
  2. Sola Scriptura
  3. Solus Christus
  4. Sola Gratia
  5. Soli Deo Gloria

 

 

As St. Paul told us, we are saved by God's gracious choice to do so through faith (which He gives us as a "gift"), apart from works that we do of any kind.

 

 

By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. ~Ephesians 2:8-9

 

 

The "Gospel" (the "Good News" by which we are saved) is: "Jesus Christ and Him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2). My advice, if you're willing to take it, would be to take some time to consider what that truly means.

 

Yours in Christ,

David

 

 

 

 

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our

behalf, so that we might become the

righteousness of God in Him"

2 Cor 5:21

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Lee
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@St_Worm2So that would be a no then? You do not believe Jesus when he told the man to follow the commandments to be saved?

 

Hi Serpardum, I'm sure that you expect me to address your points and to answer your questions, and I will continue to do so (Dv). It would be nice if you would return the favor every now and again however ;)

 

I chose to address the first part of your post, not the last part in my last post, so please reply to that. I'll get around to the last part after we finally discuss the first part, ok :)

 

You know what, never mind, I'll answer your last question by asking you for a "name". Outside of Christ Himself, please give me the name of anyone (from the days of our first parents until now), who has so perfectly "obeyed the commandments" that God has or will choose to allow him/her to "enter the kingdom of heaven" on that basis.

 

Thanks!

 

Yours in Christ,

David

 

"He saved us, NOT on the basis of deeds which we have done

in righteousness, but according to His mercy"

Titus 3:5

 

 

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No one has, thats why we're saved by grace. Let me try to explain

..

 

If we uave any sin then we dont get to heaven. By the grace of god our sins are gorgiven when we repent of them and ask forgiveness, then those sins are washed white as snow, they are gone. Can we at least agree on that? Lets go point by point.

 

1. Sin keeps is from the grace of god.

 

2. Christ died on the cross for an atonement for our sins.

 

3. If we repent of our sins and ask gmGod/Jesus for forgiveness then the sin is clean.

 

4. This is where i believe we disagree. As we vontinue to sin we must continue to repent of our sins and ask forgiveness.

 

5. If we do not repent of our sin there is no forgiveness.

 

6. Nothing we can do other than repenting and asking for forgiveness will erase a sin. No work will remove a sin, not giving to the church, not donating to the poor, nothing. Only the grace of God through the blood of Jesus removes our sins.

 

7. Again, this is where i think we disagree. If we become unrepentant, we start to willfully sin, then those sins are not cleaned and if we die in this graceless state we will go to hell. If we then repent of our sins and ask forgiveness and turn from them we again fall into grace and if we die we will go to heaven.

 

Now, which points dont you agree with? We seem to have the same general viewpoint on salvation, except we differ on the role the sinner has to place on following Jesus.

 

Are points 4 and 7 the only places we disagree?

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We seem to have the same general viewpoint on salvation, except we differ on the role the sinner has to place on following Jesus.

 

Your perspective is wrong. Your theology is man centered rather than God centered. I have an issue with point 1 and what follows, which seemingly places emphasis on man initiating his/her own salvation. And my point being, which comes first, regeneration or faith? What you're suggesting in the remaining points is based on man's doing, and that's work righteousness. A dead man can do nothing for himself and in our natural state we are Spiritually dead. God must initiate salvation bringing us to spiritual life while were are dead in sin and trespasses. That is, while we are sinners, we are in need of His EFFECTUAL Grace.

 

If we are saved by grace, but we must demonstrate faith before receiving grace, then grace is merited. It appears that point 1 as stated by you requires some form of works or prerequisite on man's part. If man is capable of seeking for God or demonstrating righteousness on his behalf than what need is there for Christ?

 

Again, take a breather and try to understand St_Worm2. His theology has been solid in his conversation with you. Again, there is sooooooooo much that has occurred before you were even brought into this world on behalf of God. St_Worm2 has emphasized that you only need to believe. But, even belief comes not from us but our belief is from God. This is not to say we exhibit a dead faith without works, a living faith is active and will be accompanied by good works if a person is made alive (Regenerate).

 

Quick question Serpartum. Do you attend church regularly? If so, may I have a link to your church's website? I am only interested in the belief statement. Maybe you could post it here, there, wherever?

 

Are you familiar enough with Salvation to break it down into stages and in the correct order, Serpardum?

 

1) Election/predestination (in Christ),

2) Atonement

3) gospel call

4) inward call

5) regeneration,

6) conversion (faith & repentance),

7) justification,

8) sanctification,

9) glorification.

 

Please answer my questions directly!

 

In historic Reformation thought, the notion is this: regeneration precedes faith. We also believe that regeneration is monergistic. Now that’s a three-dollar word. It means essentially that the divine operation called rebirth or regeneration is the work of God alone. An erg is a unit of labor, a unit of work. The word energy comes from that idea. The prefix mono- means “one.” So monergism means “one working.” It means that the work of regeneration in the human heart is something that God does by His power alone—not by 50 percent His power and 50 percent man’s power, or even 99 percent His power and 1 percent man’s power. It is 100 percent the work of God. He, and He alone, has the power to change the disposition of the soul and the human heart to bring us to faith.

 

In addition, when He exercises this grace in the soul, He brings about the effect that He intends to bring about. When God created you, He brought you into existence. You didn’t help Him. It was His sovereign work that brought you to life biologically. Likewise, it is His work, and His alone, that brings you into the state of rebirth and of renewed creation. Hence, we call this irresistible grace. It’s grace that works. It’s grace that brings about what God wants it to bring about. If, indeed, we are dead in sins and trespasses, if, indeed, our wills are held captive by the lusts of our flesh and we need to be liberated from our flesh in order to be saved, then in the final analysis, salvation must be something that God does in us and for us, not something that we in any way do for ourselves.

 

God bless,

William

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The church i went to is the baptist church. I rejected the idea of once saved always saved. That answers your question of what church i got most of my theology from.

 

i have listed the steps of salvation in my previous post.

 

I disagree with your point 1 in that i dont believe all the people that will be saved are Elect/predestined. I do agree that some are.

 

Since we disagree on point number one that tells me were our views on aalvation are totally different.

 

So, lets go from point one. If all who are saved are predestined to be saved then why are not all saved if it is the will of God that none should perish. That is a direct contradictiom. If you can answer that than maybbe i can see your viewpoint.

 

No, i dont have some list of words to staye how we are saved, i have yhe seven points i gave. We hear the word and we accept it or not.

 

You state that i claim man is saved by his own rightousness. God in Ezekial 18 says man is saved by righousness in not sinning and following God's rule. Mans righousnes can never be good enough so we need the blood of Jesus. Your viewpoint makes God a liar in Ezekial 18 Another contradiction.

 

As for me attending church regularly i currently attend services every day but from different ministers from different christian faiths, most taking the bible as the final authority. I can not give you any one church that states the way i believe.

 

The chirch i attended most regularly was a four square church where we belived the nicene creed and learned from the bible. Tbe nicene creed was the only statement of faith i heard from them, although they may have a more formal one.

 

As for your quote about reformation as you showed it i find it errs in many points.

 

I believe i have answered your questions.

 

Now, can you answer my question about Ezekial 18 other than dismissing it as not being true?

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You state that i claim man is saved by his own rightousness. God in Ezekial 18 says man is saved by righousness in not sinning and following God's rule. Mans righousnes can never be good enough so we need the blood of Jesus. Your viewpoint makes God a liar in Ezekial 18 Another contradiction.

 

Now, can you answer my question about Ezekial 18 other than dismissing it as not being true?

 

Read Jeremiah 31:29:

  • In those days they shall no longer say: “‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

Jeremiah prophesied that this proverb would come to an end, which conveyed, people may suffer for the sins of their ancestors.

 

Ezekiel 18 is aimed directly at destroying the belief that people are bound by the guilt or merit of their parents. This belief took expression in the form of a proverb which is cited in 18:2

  • Ezekiel 18:2 ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge’?

The proverb could work in two ways:

1. An evil son will not escape punishment because of the righteousness of his father. Read verse 5-13:

“If a man is righteous and does what is just and right— 6 if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, 7 does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 8 does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, 9 walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully—he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God.

 

10 “If he fathers a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, who does any of these things 11 (though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, 13 lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.

2. A righteous son will not be punished for the evil done by his father. Read verses 14-18:

14 “Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise: 15 he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife, 16 does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 17 withholds his hand from iniquity,[c] takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

 

The principle is declared in verse 4: "The soul who sins is the one who will die." Ezekiel also counters the idea that salvation is solely a matter of storing up merit throughout the lifetime of an individual, and using that store to balance out iniquities. This notion is firmly rejected. If an evil man turns from his ways, he will live. If a righteous man turns to evil, he will be punished. Read verses 21-28:

 

21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

 

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. 27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

 

This pronouncement was obviously thought to be unfair. Read verse 29:

 

29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

 

Contrary to what Israel says, this teaching is not unjust. Each will be judged according to what he/she has done. Read verses 30-31:

 

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.[d] 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?

 

The Lord takes no pleasure in the death of anyone. Read verse 23, 32:

 

23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”

 

Notice in Ezekiel 18:6-9 a selective list of sins is given. This list is paralleled in vs 11-13 and 15-17

 

6 if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity,

7 does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment,

8 does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man,

9 walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully—he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God.

 

11 (though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife,

12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination,

13 lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.

 

15 he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife, 16 does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 17 withholds his hand from iniquity,[c] takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live.

 

Ezekiel chapter 18 addresses the accountability of the individual. Today's individualistic societies have an easier time accepting this, but to an ancient Middle Eastern culture this would have been harder to accept given the greater emphasis on inheritance and community. Today people tend to blame society rather than their ancestors for their problems. Whatever the case may be they are shifting the blame from themselves. Ezekiel 18 addresses such points.

 

God bless,

William

 

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Yes, william, you expessed the viewpoint of Ezekial 18 very well and i am in 100% agreement with it.

 

Which is exactly what i was saying. A man turns from rightousness and is accountable for their own sins. They turn back to rightousness and their sins are forgiven.

 

Your viewpoint does not contradict Ezekial 18 as you just described it.

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Yes, william, you expessed the viewpoint of Ezekial 18 very well and i am in 100% agreement with it.

 

Which is exactly what i was saying. A man turns from rightousness and is accountable for their own sins. They turn back to rightousness and their sins are forgiven.

 

Your viewpoint does not contradict Ezekial 18 as you just described it.

 

That is what the Reformed doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints" teaches and emphasizes. Perseverance of the Saints is in harmony with Predestination.

 

God bless,

William

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Actually, predestination says god causes man to sin if all men are predestined.

 

When someone sins after being saved the individual is accountable gor their own sin as you pointed out, God is not responsible for it.

 

With predestination for all men, however, God would cause any man God did not predestine to sin.

 

You said

Each will be judged according to what he/she has done.
which i agree with. That goes against predestination which says each will be judged because God did not choose to predestine them.

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Actually, predestination says god causes man to sin if all men are predestined.

 

When someone sins after being saved the individual is accountable gor their own sin as you pointed out, God is not responsible for it.

 

With predestination for all men, however, God would cause any man God did not predestine to sin.

 

You said which i agree with. That goes against predestination which says each will be judged because God did not choose to predestine them.

 

You already stated that every man is accountable for his/her own sins. We all have a sin nature. Though God may "pass over" a man or woman they are still held accountable for their sins. The responsibility for the sinner's sins rest squarely on them without God's intervention.

 

What you expressed is an elementary distortion of the doctrine of Predestination and your rebuttal directly addresses Hyper Calvinism and not Calvinism. This is often a mistake, because people cannot prove fault with the actual doctrines of Calvinism. God does not directly or actively work sin into anyone's life. He is not the author of Sin. Man has a sin nature, a depraved nature, that if left to him/her self will perish. God must actively intervene in the life of the Elect.

 

Take for example John 3:16 in its context which uses the word "world" refering to every tribe, tongue and nation. Another words, this is how God loved whosoever that believed, that is, the whosoever that believed (the Elect) are of every tribe, tongue, and nation. Salvation now extends to the Gentiles and not only the Jews. The part that doesn't align with Scripture, "Jesus paid for the sins of every single person". By this one missed John 3:19 where the exceptions are made, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Why are they condemned already? Why do they not believe in the name of the only Son of God. Read John 10:26 with emphasis on BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP. One however, cannot rightfully place the blame upon the shoulders of God. Because, "he has not believed", due to his inability of a sinful nature. The Scripture DOES NOT SAY you are not my sheep BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE.

 

TULIP?

 

No one can come to me (Total Depravity)

unless the Father (Unconditional Election)

who sent me draws him. (Irresistible Grace)

And I will raise him up (Limited Atonement)

on the last day. (Perseverance of the Saints)

 

The positive-positive view of predestination (Hyper-Calvinism) teaches that God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to work grace in their hearts and bring them to faith. Likewise, the case of the reprobates, He works evil in the hearts of the reprobate and actively prevents them from coming to faith. This view has often been called "Hyper-Calvinism" because it goes beyond the view of Calvin, Luther, and other Reformers.

 

Really, please, take time to understand the actual doctrine, and do not misrepresent it. That is called a Strawman argument. Here's a worthwhile read:

 

https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...predestination

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This is what the bible says.

 

2 Peter 3

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

1 Timothy 2

3 This is good, and xit is pleasing in the sight of yGod our Savior, 4 who desires zall people to be saved and ato come to bthe knowledge of the truth

 

But you say God only wants those he predestined to be saved. Do you see the conflict? If only those who are predestined are saved then God would simply predestine everyone since it is his will that all repent and come to the knowledge of truth.

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This is what the bible says.

 

 

 

But you say God only wants those he predestined to be saved. Do you see the conflict? If only those who are predestined are saved then God would simply predestine everyone since it is his will that all repent and come to the knowledge of truth.

 

You have isolated a couple of verses.Why do you not read the other resources presented to you for a more comprehensive understanding - which they appear as if you have ignored them? What you're suggesting is that God loses some, and that God is powerless over man's own choosing. He's frustrated. He is a wishful thinker up there in heaven with his fingers crossed, just waiting for someone to choose Him. Another words, in your theology, man is soverign in matters of Salvation. Again, man centered theology.

 

Reformed Soteriology gives all glory to God ALONE, not one percent to you, and one to ninety nine percent to God. Not to dead saints before you, Mary or anyone else, not one iota for anyone to boast, but to God alone. If any theology does not rightly profess all glory to God alone, it would be wise to reject it. Thus, profess Soli Deo Gloria before you go further. If you are hesitant I greatly urge you to examine whether you're deliberately puffed up in pride in your soteriology.

 

Admit that before going further!

 

To address your Scriptures, as an example of how you should respond to me first (You did not deal with the Scriptures I presented you, but instead began a game of Verse to Verse Ping Pong:

 

2 Peter 3:9 addresses the delay (2 Peter 3:8) of divine judgment as a sign of God's forbearance and mercy towards the reader, particularly toward the believers in their midst who have been confused and misled by false teachers. The repentance in view, for the sake of which God delays judgment, is that of God's people rather than the world at large. God is not willing that any of his elect should perish John 6:39. In the context of this epistle, the "any" of this verse refers back to "us" of 2 Peter 1:3, indicating that Peter is talking about the elect, those whom God has granted everything necessary for life and godliness.

  • 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to[a] his own glory and excellence,

The verse is not teaching that God wants everyone to be saved such that He is frustrated by the fact that not everyone is saved, and it is not endorsing a universalism that says everyone will be saved in the end (see Perseverance of the Saints). God has an elect people whom He has purposed to redeem and who will therefore be saved, for no purpose of His can be thwarted Romans 9:1-29

 

9 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,[a] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

 

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

 

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’

and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”

26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’

there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

 

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel[c] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

 

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,

we would have been like Sodom

and become like Gomorrah.”

 

Job 42:2.

  • “I know that you can do all things,
    and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

The Lord does not delight in the death of the wicked, but His eternal purposes are not overturned and He is not thrown into depression when people reject his Gospel Ezekiel 18:32

  • For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

1 Timothy 2:3-4 does not mean that God sovereignly wills every human being to be saved. Example, that God saves or wishes to save everyone, since Romans 9:18-24 says otherwise, and speaks of God's "desire" in expressing His election and reprobation. It refers to God's general benevolence in taking no delight in the death of the wicked Ezekiel 33:11 or to God's desire that all types of people be saved. Example, God does not choose His Elect from any single nationality, class, or other group (The Elect are from every tribe, tongue, and nation).

  • Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

God bless,

William

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