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Welcome to SovereignGraceSingles.com. Where Reformed Faith and Romance Come Together! We are the only Christian dating website for Christian Singles in the Reformed Faith worldwide. Our focus is to bring together Christian singles of all ages. Reformed single Christian men and women who wish to meet other Reformed Christian singles for spiritually, like-minded, loving relationships.

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Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” - Genesis 2:18

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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.

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SGS offers a "fenced" community: both for private single members and also a public Protestant forums open to Bible-believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene-derived Christian Church.
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Tattoos

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whysewserious

I have never felt a pull to get mine removed. To me, if someone is going to argue to not mark or scar the body on purpose, having a laser to the skin, which does burn and scar it, actually would be an act that further does the thing some believe we aren't supposed to do in the first place.

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bebet

Up until now, I didn't realize that there were actually bible verses that prohibits having tattoo markings. My family has always been conservative and tattoos were never talked about much but we know that we're not supposed to have them. When I was a child, I actually thought that people who had them were prisoners or ex-convicts. Of course I know better now that for people who have them, tattoos are forms of art or self-expression. That doesn't mean though that I'll be expressing myself with a tattoo anytime soon. Making a canvass out of my body is just unnatural and I believe that my body is too precious to be turned into a canvass.

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atpollard

I know someone who has a bible verse that really means a lot to him and he had the entire page from an original manuscript with that verse reproduced as a tattoo on his forearm.

Clearly, he viewed it as more than just art, but a form of personal worship.

 

I suspect that tattoos are a lot like meat dedicated to idols. There is nothing inherently wrong with them, unless your conscience forbids YOU from getting one. The trick is to tread with care to avoid harming a brother or sister for whom Christ also died.

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HappyFish

Technically, Leviticus says not to, but they also say that you can't wear a cotton-poly blend shirt, but I think in the end, as with all things, it's between you and God. As long as you do it safely, don't force anyone else into doing something they're not comfortable with, and make a reasonable, clear-headed decision, it shouldn't matter. Tattoos can be a lovely way of expressing your spirituality and faith. The designs can be simple and elaborate, and as unique as each person is. I personally think that if something moves your soul closer to God, then it's a good thing.

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Annie2288

I don't have any tatoo's, but I am often curious about the choice of others tatoo's. If, I see one that really catches my attention I often ask about it if I get a chance. I may say that time piece tatoo is interesting is there a story behind it or does it mean anything in particular? I think I like to know a little about people's story.

 

I have heard many interesting things from people including this tatoo represents death or afterlife to dreams people have etc.

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whysewserious

Thank you for mentioning something like the cotton blend shirt - there are lots of rules in Leviticus that most of us break on the daily but we don't really talk about. Tattoos are just an easier subject to "pick on" for people, I think, because I think that unfortunately many people get a kick off of judging others.

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David Lee
I don't have any tatoo's, but I am often curious about the choice of others tatoo's. If, I see one that really catches my attention I often ask about it if I get a chance. I may say that time piece tatoo is interesting is there a story behind it or does it mean anything in particular? I think I like to know a little about people's story.

 

I have heard many interesting things from people including this tatoo represents death or afterlife to dreams people have etc.

 

Hi Annie, I noticed you are new here, so I just wanted to say, WELCOME TO CF :)

 

Yours and His,

David

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EntropiaAddict

I personally have several tattoos and do not feel this makes me any less Christian than someone with no tattoos. Part of it for me is that I got most of them while I was not a practicing believer, I don't have any that are offensive to any religious community (unless tattoos in general are), they all have very deep personal meanings in my life (and serve as reminders of a more difficult time I went through), and I honestly have a hard time seeing the difference between having tattoos, eating unhealthy, being obese, etc. being any different from each other in God's eyes. I feel that fellow Christians should not condemn someone for a choice like this (especially since it is a permanent choice and may have been made while a non-believer). As others have said, tattoos are a "hot" topic right now and easy to pick on, but have to be considered against all other things we do to our body that may be harmful.

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David Lee
As others have said, tattoos are a "hot" topic right now and easy to pick on, but have to be considered against all other things we do to our body that may be harmful.

 

Hi EA, let me start off by saying that I'm not challenging what you've said here (because I'm just as guilty as anyone else of thinking it), so I guess I'm just kind of musing over it. My first question is this, what would we Christians do if we found out that we shouldn't be grading our performance as Christians, "on the curve"? ;) Because the bigger question is , "does God grade us that way"?

 

My worry is, He does not :eek:

 

Do we really believe that if He has given us a specific, "thou shalt not do this or that", kind of command, like ...

 

 

You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD. ~Leviticus 19:28

 

 

... that He's going to be somehow 'less' displeased with us when we've 1) gone ahead and done something He commanded us not to do, but 2) at least we aren't fat? :rolleyes:

 

Yours in Christ,

David

 

 

Edited by David Lee
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atpollard

So what makes Leviticus 19:28 so special?

 

What about 27 and 29?

 

27 “ ‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

 

28 “ ‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

 

29 “ ‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

 

Will God be holding me to as harsh a standard for shaving?

Frankly, the verse that REALLY worries me, if indeed we are going to embrace legalism and reject Grace, is just a few verses down in Leviticus 19:37 “ ‘Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the LORD.’ ”

 

I think the NT says the same thing ... if you violate the law on even one point, then you violate all of it.

That is EXACTLY why I take such comfort in knowing that Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly, so I don't have to.

 

Does a Tattoo prevent me from Loving God? No, then what is the problem.

Does a Tattoo prevent me from Loving my neighbor as myself? No, then what is the problem.

Is there something in the NT that specifically prohibits getting a tattoo? No, then what's the problem.

 

I really think that using the OT law to attempt to place a yolk of guilt on a Grace filled believer is bad form.

I am pretty sure that my man Paul would have some words on taking up the yolk of the law that might offend some on this board.

I think he suggested something about emasculating themselves. ;)

 

 

ROMANS 8

31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

 

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

 

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[... not even a tattoo. :) ]

(yes, I am making fun of those who vehemently oppose tattoos. ... I may repent of my attitude later.)

 

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David Lee
So what makes Leviticus 19:28 so special?

 

Hi Arthur, that's a question that should put you at the head of the class unless, of course, you go and try to, "comparison shop", other verses to justify your beliefs about it (and by doing so, never find out why God put that prohibition in the Bible in the first place ;)).

 

I've never done more than read what the prohibition says. It certainly seems clear enough (and I've chosen to not get tattooed because of it), however, I've refrained from commenting about tattoos in this thread because I honestly don't know more about this subject than my cursory reading of the prohibition allows for.

 

Why did God prohibit tattoos? Was it a cultural no, no (like "braided hair" was in the First Century), or is it universal prohibition? Has that question been answered in this thread?? (I apologize, because I am asking this question somewhat blindly since I haven't read through the entire thread yet. Sorry!).

 

One thing's for sure, IMHO at least, it has nothing to do with grace vs law.

 

For us Christians who are already saved by grace, Leviticus 19:28 is simply a matter of, "is it pleasing to God if we obey it, or is it not"? (because if it no longer matters to Him, why would we bother obeying it?)

 

As "Christians", we're not worried about doing something to be "saved" (or to remain saved), rather, we're all about "pleasing God" in all that we do, say, and think, right? So saying that we want to obey God's Law is simply code for us saying that we want to obey Him, to do what is pleasing to Him. That's why we need to figure out what's still important to obey from the OT and what isn't, not because we're worried about our salvation, AMEN!

 

That, in fact, is why I think your opening question is so important, because what we really need to know is just that, "what makes Leviticus 19:28 (in and of itself) so special?"

 

That is my 2 cents anyway ;)

 

Yours and His,

David

Edited by David Lee
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whysewserious

Thank you for the recent questions and thoughts. I always appreciate when things are written respectfully.

 

To both iterate and piggy back on the idea of why that particular verse is given so much weight, I have asked what Old Testament laws are still applicable today, if they aren't, when did they cease to be, and were they ever intended to be applied to non-Jewish believers?

 

An answer I have shared formerly is that I have heard a theory that many of the laws written were to prevent health issues and disease. Tattoos at the time certainly would have opened the body to nasty infections, as would eating some of the forbidden animals or having hordes of sexual partners.

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Espiritu
I have never felt a pull to get mine removed. To me, if someone is going to argue to not mark or scar the body on purpose, having a laser to the skin, which does burn and scar it, actually would be an act that further does the thing some believe we aren't supposed to do in the first place.

 

From the bottom of my hart, I really see your tattoo's story as something really special, I definitely would keep it for life if I were you. Losing your mother or any close person is really painful and you actually had the opportunity to share a mom-daughter moment with your mom, it's a beautifut thing if you keep that tattoo for life so you can remember your mom and all those moments you spent together, I really wish I had the confidence with my mom to do that sort of thing, believe me, your mom is a blessing. Taking it off your skin with lasser machines would not be a good dea, it's even worse than when you get the tattoo done on your skin, God would not like you to regret what you've done in the past. God bless.

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Luna

Personally, I don't like tattoos or doing anything that may harm the body like smoking and piercing, because I believe that's disrespecting the body that God gave us. I believe that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Tampering the body which will be used to glorify God is kinda wrong. That's just my opinion, though.

I do think having a tattoo will not keep anyone from serving the Lord. It's okay if you had it before you accepted Christ because it's natural for people to do worldly things like tattoos and stuff. But, when people starts accepting Christ, they become a new man and they don't think much about worldly things anymore because their focus is on Christ.

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atpollard
Hi Arthur, that's a question that should put you at the head of the class unless, of course, you go and try to, "comparison shop", other verses to justify your beliefs about it (and by doing so, never find out why God put that prohibition in the Bible in the first place ;)).

 

I've never done more than read what the prohibition says. It certainly seems clear enough (and I've chosen to not get tattooed because of it), however, I've refrained from commenting about tattoos in this thread because I honestly don't know more about this subject than my cursory reading of the prohibition allows for.

 

Why did God prohibit tattoos? Was it a cultural no, no (like "braided hair" was in the First Century), or is it universal prohibition? Has that question been answered in this thread?? (I apologize, because I am asking this question somewhat blindly since I haven't read through the entire thread yet. Sorry!).

 

One thing's for sure, IMHO at least, it has nothing to do with grace vs law.

 

For us Christians who are already saved by grace, Leviticus 19:28 is simply a matter of, "is it pleasing to God if we obey it, or is it not"? (because if it no longer matters to Him, why would we bother obeying it?)

 

As "Christians", we're not worried about doing something to be "saved" (or to remain saved), rather, we're all about "pleasing God" in all that we do, say, and think, right? So saying that we want to obey God's Law is simply code for us saying that we want to obey Him, to do what is pleasing to Him. That's why we need to figure out what's still important to obey from the OT and what isn't, not because we're worried about our salvation, AMEN!

 

That, in fact, is why I think your opening question is so important, because what we really need to know is just that, "what makes Leviticus 19:28 (in and of itself) so special?"

 

That is my 2 cents anyway ;)

 

Yours and His,

David

 

Greetings David.

 

I had to wait to respond to this. I admit to a little trepidation.

Let me preface the response with a short story. One of my most influential mentors was a graduate of Moody that taught me that I was not everybody's mother. God is responsible for correcting them, I am not. I am responsible for speaking the truth when appropriate. My problem is that I am a warrior at heart. I love a good fight. So far I have only been drawn into one verbal, theological no holds barred brawl in 30 plus years of striving to follow Christ. I still do not regret that fight. It is directly relevent to this discussion.

 

I don't generally care aboout anyone's beliefs on Baptism (I cannot Imagine one of the chosen being denied entry to heaven because they were sprinkled rather than dunked), nor do I particularly wish to waste time debating politics or anything in Revelation. I'll talk about it, I just refuse to get too excited or break fellowship over nonsense. However, my one great fight was over Baptism. I was invited to a party of a friend of a friend and found three Church of Christ (I have no idea which of the many denominations and cults that use that name this was) members verbally beating the crap out of a 19 year old new Christian that his baptism didn't count and he was not saved and his sins were not forgiven because the wrong person performed the baptism in the wrong manner (sprinlking vs total dunking) and the denomination that performed it was not the 'True Church' (strangely, this time it was not Roman Catholic bashing). Listening briefly to the exchange the young man HAD repented and been sprinkled as an adult at a common Protestant denomination. He was attempting to defend his salvation and coming under attack by three people who knew far more scripture on Baptism than either he or I knew. However, I knew enough to know that they were thologically wrong, their actions were harming his faith and earning them a millstone around the neck ... and frankly, three people beating up one young believer just plain pissed me off. So I jumped in and quickly countered their claims with other scriptures. They tag teamed off and I found myself debating with two new players, whose arguments I was also able to rebuff with scriptures (they turned out to be the elders). Then a new player stepped in an pounded me with about thirty partial quotes from various verses on the necessity of baptism for salvation. Without a Bible to review each in context and a lot of time, I was not in a position to refute all of the Pastor's quotes. Instead I took a step back and pointed out that without Love, there is nothing and even if they were correct about this topic, and I had strong scriptural evidence to suggest they were not, what they were doing was not showing love to this young believer. I feared more for their souls than for his.

 

I am largely indifferent to the issue of Tattoos. It is hardly worth arguing about. However, I find many of the same feelings of protectiveness arising in me as that argument on baptism. This time, I am older and wiser. I have no wish to be one to sow discord among the brothern, so for MY spiritual well being, I will attempt to respond to your question and bow out of this topic.

 

 

I hope you do not view this as 'comparison shopping', but I see the issue as far bigger than tattoos. I would argue that even the 10 commandments are not directly for us. None of the law is to tell us how to live our life after salvation, only to direct us to repentence before salvation. The problem becomes deciding which laws are ceremonial and which are moral? As I pointed out, the verse before the one on tattoos forbids shaving and both come only a few verses after the ten commandments in a chapter ending with a command to keep ALL the laws. Why would God make his moral will so hard to follow?

 

I do not believe that he would or did.

 

Matthew 22:37-40

37 Jesus replied: "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

I believe that Matthew 20:40 holds the key. These two commands are the 'law' that God has written on our new hearts. A law that holds us to a far higher moral standard than anything in the OT, while freeing is from all of the burdens of legalism ... including worying about tattoos.

 

From the Commentary of Matthew Henry:

"Observe what the weight and greatness of these commandments is (v. 40); On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets; that is, This is the sum and substance of all those precepts relating to practical religion which were written in men's hearts by nature, revived by Moses, and backed and enforced by the preaching and writing of the prophets. All hang upon the law of love; take away this, and all falls to the ground, and comes to nothing. Rituals and ceremonials must give way to these, as must all spiritual gifts, for love is the more excellent way. This is the spirit of the law, which animates it, the cement of the law, which joins it; it is the root and spring of all other duties, the compendium of the whole Bible, not only of the law and the prophets, but of the gospel too, only supposing this love to be the fruit of faith, and that we love God in Christ, and our neighbour for his sake. All hangs on these two commandments, as the effect doth both on its efficient and on its final cause; for the fulfilling of the law is love (Rom. 13:10) and the end of the law is love, 1 Tim. 1:5. The law of love is the nail, is the nail in the sure place, fastened by the masters of assemblies (Eccl. 12:11), on which is hung all the glory of the law and the prophets (Isa. 22:24), a nail that shall never be drawn; for on this nail all the glory of the new Jerusalem shall eternally hang. Love never faileth. Into these two great commandments therefore let our hearts be delivered as into a mould; in the defence and evidence of these let us spend our zeal, and not in notions, names, and strifes of words, as if those were the mighty things on which the law and the prophets hung, and to them the love of God and our neighbour must be sacrificed; but to the commanding power of these let every thing else be made to bow."

 

 

 

To specifically answer your question, before I depart, I suggest a quick look at the verse before and after:

 

Leviticus 19: 27-29

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD."

29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness."

 

The nations around Israel shaved, so Israel was not to shave. The nations around Israel marked themselves for the dead with tattoos and cuts, so Israel was not to. The nations around Israel endorsed prostitution (often for religious worship) so Israel was not to. The whole section was about God's people being outwardly different so the world could recognize them. Now, God's people have been circumcised inwardly with a new heart, so we are different on the inside. There is no longer a need to slavishly obey a ceremonial code of outward distinction. We are called to honor God and Love others. So the question becomes is your appearance (with or without a tattoo) honoring God and Loving others? More importantly, are our words and actions towards the appearance and tattoos of others honoring God and Loving others.

 

 

David Guzik suggests that Lev 19:26-31 constitite a block dedicated to avoiding pagan religious practices:

Laws to insure separation from pagan practices.

 

You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor shall you practice divination or soothsaying. You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard. You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD. Do not prostitute your daughter, to cause her to be a harlot, lest the land fall into harlotry, and the land become full of wickedness. You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD. Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

 

a. You shall not eat anything with the blood: Eating blood was a practice in many pagan cultic ceremonies, as was divination and soothsaying. Therefore both are directly forbidden.

 

i. Harrison on soothsaying: "The prognostication of favourable times for specific forms of action." This was predicting lucky days or favorable times as an astrologer or others might do.

 

b. You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard: To do this was to imitate pagan customs of that day; today, Jewish orthodox men are conspicuous by their untrimmed beards and long, curly locks on the sides of their heads.

 

c. Cuttings in the flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: These were also pagan practices God wanted Israel to separate from. The trimming of the hair, the beard, cutting, and tattoos were all connected with pagan rites of mourning.

 

i. Part of this message to us today is that what our culture thinks and how they perceive things is important. If some clothing or jewelry or body decoration would associate us with the pagan world, it should not be done. This is a difficult line to draw, because the standards of culture are always changing. Some modern examples of changing standards are hair length and earrings for men.

 

ii. In Paul's day, in the city of Corinth, only prostitutes went around without a head covering - so it was right for the Christian women of Corinth to wear veils, though not required to by the letter of the law (1 Corinthians 11:5-6).

 

d. Do not prostitute your daughter, to cause her to be a harlot: To prostitute your daughter in this context probably means to give her as a ritual prostitute at a pagan temple; this was of course forbidden, though in the eyes of the pagan culture, it was a religious thing to do.

 

e. Mediums and familiar spirits: These were ways the pagans sought to contact the dead or other spirits; this was a doorway into the occult, and strictly forbidden - those who seek after these things are defiled - "made dirty" by them.

 

i. "In some Near Eastern societies such mediums would dig a small hole in the earth to symbolize a grave, and then put offerings in it to attract the attention of the person whom the medium desired to contact." (Harrison)

 

ii. The word for familiar spirits comes from a root meaning "to know"; "perhaps referring to the occultic information which the practitioner of necromancy purported to have." (Harrison)

 

iii. "Not only are all real dealers with familiar spirits, or necromantic or magical superstitions, are here forbidden, but also all pretenders to the knowledge of futurity, fortune-tellers, astrologers, and so forth." (Clarke)

 

 

Matthew Henry seems to agree:

IV. A law against the superstitious usages of the heathen, v. 26-28.

  • 1. Eating upon the blood, as the Gentiles did, who gathered the blood of their sacrifices into a vessel for their demons (as they fancied) to drink, and then sat about it, eating the flesh themselves, signifying their communion with devils by their feasting with them. Let not this custom be used, for the blood of God's sacrifices was to be sprinkled on the altar, and then poured at the foot of it, and conveyed away.
  • 2. Enchantment and divination, and a superstitious observation of the times, some days and hours lucky and others unlucky. Curious arts of this kind, it is likely, had been of late invented by the Egyptian priests, to amuse the people, and support their own credit. The Israelites had seen them practised, but must by no means imitate them. It would be unpardonable in those to whom were committed the oracles of God to ask counsel of the devil, and yet worse in Christians, to whom the Son of God is manifested, who has destroyed the works of the devil. For Christians to have their nativities cast, and their fortunes told them, to use spells and charms for the cure of diseases and the driving away of evil spirits, to be affected with the falling of the salt, a hare crossing the way, cross days, or the like, is an intolerable affront to the Lord Jesus, a support of paganism and idolatry, and a reproach both to themselves and to that worthy name by which they are called: and those must be grossly ignorant, both of the law and the gospel, that ask, "What harm is there in these things?' Is it no harm for those that have fellowship with Christ to have fellowship with devils, or to learn the ways of those that have? Surely we have not so learned Christ.
  • 3. There was a superstition even in trimming themselves used by the heathen, which must not be imitated by the people of God: You shall not round the corners of your heads. Those that worshipped the hosts of heaven, in honour of them, cut their hair so as that their heads might resemble the celestial globe; but, as the custom was foolish itself, so, being done with respect to their false gods, it was idolatrous.
  • 4. The rites and ceremonies by which they expressed their sorrow at their funerals must not be imitated, v. 28. They must not make cuts or prints in their flesh for the dead; for the heathen did so to pacify the infernal deities they dreamt of, and to render them propitious to their deceased friends. Christ by his sufferings has altered the property of death, and made it a true friend to every true Israelite; and now, as there needs nothing to make death propitious to us (for, if God be so, death is so of course), so we sorrow not as those that have no hope. Those whom the God of Israel had set apart for himself must not receive the image and superscription of these dunghill deities. Lastly, The prostituting of their daughters to uncleanness, which is here forbidden (v. 29), seems to have been practised by the heathen in their idolatrous worships, for with such abominations those unclean spirits which they worshipped were well pleased. And when lewdness obtained as a religious rite, and was committed in their temples, no marvel that the land became full of that wickedness, which, when it entered at the temple-doors, overspread the land like a mighty torrent, and bore down all the fences of virtue and modesty. The devil himself could not have brought such abominations into their lives if he had not first brought them into their worships. And justly were those given up to vile affections who forsook the holy God, and gave divine honours to impure spirits. Those that dishonour God are thus suffered to dishonour themselves and their families.

God Bless All,

Arthur

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whysewserious

 

From the bottom of my hart, I really see your tattoo's story as something really special, I definitely would keep it for life if I were you. Losing your mother or any close person is really painful and you actually had the opportunity to share a mom-daughter moment with your mom, it's a beautifut thing if you keep that tattoo for life so you can remember your mom and all those moments you spent together, I really wish I had the confidence with my mom to do that sort of thing, believe me, your mom is a blessing. Taking it off your skin with lasser machines would not be a good dea, it's even worse than when you get the tattoo done on your skin, God would not like you to regret what you've done in the past. God bless.

 

It really was an amazing experience. and I hate to admit that had my mom not been ill with a terminal disease, I may have never been as close to her as I was.

 

 

I know this is a bit of a side bar, but I would encourage anyone who is in a broken relationship with family...patch it, if you can, BEFORE something drastic like that happens. Sometimes it takes a lot of swallowing pride (I know I had to); but some genuine "I'm sorry" moments are not as painful as living a life wondering "what if".

 

Do it!

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Espiritu

 

It really was an amazing experience. and I hate to admit that had my mom not been ill with a terminal disease, I may have never been as close to her as I was.

 

 

I know this is a bit of a side bar, but I would encourage anyone who is in a broken relationship with family...patch it, if you can, BEFORE something drastic like that happens. Sometimes it takes a lot of swallowing pride (I know I had to); but some genuine "I'm sorry" moments are not as painful as living a life wondering "what if".

 

Do it!

 

I am currently passing through that situation. My parents are cool with me, but the only thing is that we don't have the confidence for talking about personal stuff, I really would like to talk about absolutely anything that could be happening to me with my dad, but he doesn't help at all, whenever I tell him something that is going on in my life he just acts careless and I do not really like it, he's always like okay, he's so cold with us and that's a con, what do you recommend me?

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whysewserious

 

I am currently passing through that situation. My parents are cool with me, but the only thing is that we don't have the confidence for talking about personal stuff, I really would like to talk about absolutely anything that could be happening to me with my dad, but he doesn't help at all, whenever I tell him something that is going on in my life he just acts careless and I do not really like it, he's always like okay, he's so cold with us and that's a con, what do you recommend me?

 

Be patient. I am now an adult, and it took some doing before my dad came to accept me as a grown woman rather than the little girl he raised, and that he will always partially see me as. I also think there are some things that parents are probably uncomfortable talking with their children about, regardless of their age. I think a good way around this for me has been to ask for advice in areas where I know he has valuable insight - if you can get them talking, it will start to be easier.

 

I also asked my mom a lot of easy to answer questions about her childhood - cliche things like what she wanted to be when she grew up. It was different than what she ended up actually doing, so that was yet another question. Really listen, these types of stories often lend themselves to more questions. When did your parents grow up? Mine did in the 60's and 70's so there were historical things we talked about (my mom lived in the rural south when desegregation was happening, so hearing how she did not understand why she could not play with the new kids in her school was very telling of her character).

 

I do not know you or your family personally, so it is hard to gauge without that valuable piece of information. But people do love to pass on their knowledge, and that was definitely helpful for me in building a relationship with my parents.

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David Lee

 

Greetings David.

 

I had to wait to respond to this. I admit to a little trepidation.

Let me preface the response with a short story. One of my most influential mentors was a graduate of Moody that taught me that I was not everybody's mother. God is responsible for correcting them, I am not. I am responsible for speaking the truth when appropriate. My problem is that I am a warrior at heart. I love a good fight. So far I have only been drawn into one verbal, theological no holds barred brawl in 30 plus years of striving to follow Christ. I still do not regret that fight. It is directly relevant to this discussion.

 

Hi Arthur, I haven't read through your post yet, but it looks like I must have struck a nerve, and for that I apologize. Your post followed my reply to EA above, and I'm sorry to say that I allowed my flow of thought in my reply to EA to spill over into my reply to you and your post, which I should not have done.

 

I've also found that when I don't know much about a subject (which is the case here concerning the reason for the Biblical tattoo ban I'm sorry to say), that I should read and not comment on it, because I find that I end up saying things, or saying things in a way, that I often regret.

 

That said, the warrior first thing I understand. I played ice hockey and now, as a Christian, I dearly wish I could take back some of the things I did and said to others back then. You continue:

 

I don't generally care about anyone's beliefs on Baptism (I cannot Imagine one of the chosen being denied entry to heaven because they were sprinkled rather than dunked), nor do I particularly wish to waste time debating politics or anything in Revelation. I'll talk about it, I just refuse to get too excited or break fellowship over nonsense. However, my one great fight was over Baptism. I was invited to a party of a friend of a friend and found three Church of Christ (I have no idea which of the many denominations and cults that use that name this was) members verbally beating the crap out of a 19 year old new Christian that his baptism didn't count and he was not saved and his sins were not forgiven because the wrong person performed the baptism in the wrong manner (sprinlking vs total dunking) and the denomination that performed it was not the 'True Church' (strangely, this time it was not Roman Catholic bashing). Listening briefly to the exchange the young man HAD repented and been sprinkled as an adult at a common Protestant denomination. He was attempting to defend his salvation and coming under attack by three people who knew far more scripture on Baptism than either he or I knew. However, I knew enough to know that they were theologically wrong, their actions were harming his faith and earning them a millstone around the neck ... and frankly, three people beating up one young believer just plain pissed me off. So I jumped in and quickly countered their claims with other scriptures. They tag teamed off and I found myself debating with two new players, whose arguments I was also able to rebuff with scriptures (they turned out to be the elders). Then a new player stepped in an pounded me with about thirty partial quotes from various verses on the necessity of baptism for salvation. Without a Bible to review each in context and a lot of time, I was not in a position to refute all of the Pastor's quotes. Instead I took a step back and pointed out that without Love, there is nothing and even if they were correct about this topic, and I had strong scriptural evidence to suggest they were not, what they were doing was not showing love to this young believer. I feared more for their souls than for his.

 

I am largely indifferent to the issue of Tattoos. It is hardly worth arguing about. However, I find many of the same feelings of protectiveness arising in me as that argument on baptism. This time, I am older and wiser. I have no wish to be one to sow discord among the brothern, so for MY spiritual well being, I will attempt to respond to your question and bow out of this topic.

 

I hope you do not view this as 'comparison shopping', but I see the issue as far bigger than tattoos. I would argue that even the 10 commandments are not directly for us. None of the law is to tell us how to live our life after salvation, only to direct us to repentance before salvation. The problem becomes deciding which laws are ceremonial and which are moral? As I pointed out, the verse before the one on tattoos forbids shaving and both come only a few verses after the ten commandments in a chapter ending with a command to keep ALL the laws. Why would God make his moral will so hard to follow?

 

I do not believe that he would or did.

 

Matthew 22:37-40

37 Jesus replied: "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

I believe that Matthew 20:40 holds the key. These two commands are the 'law' that God has written on our new hearts. A law that holds us to a far higher moral standard than anything in the OT, while freeing is from all of the burdens of legalism ... including worrying about tattoos.

 

From the Commentary of Matthew Henry:

 

To specifically answer your question, before I depart, I suggest a quick look at the verse before and after:

 

Leviticus 19: 27-29

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD."

29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness."

 

The nations around Israel shaved, so Israel was not to shave. The nations around Israel marked themselves for the dead with tattoos and cuts, so Israel was not to. The nations around Israel endorsed prostitution (often for religious worship) so Israel was not to. The whole section was about God's people being outwardly different so the world could recognize them. Now, God's people have been circumcised inwardly with a new heart, so we are different on the inside. There is no longer a need to slavishly obey a ceremonial code of outward distinction. We are called to honor God and Love others. So the question becomes is your appearance (with or without a tattoo) honoring God and Loving others? More importantly, are our words and actions towards the appearance and tattoos of others honoring God and Loving others.

 

David Guzik suggests that Lev 19:26-31 constitutes a block dedicated to avoiding pagan religious practices:

 

Matthew Henry seems to agree:

God Bless All,

Arthur

 

Thanks Arthur, you've given me a lot to consider :) I can truly say that I've never "looked down" on someone for getting/having a tattoo. As for whether or not the command to not mark one's body with a tattoo is a cultural one meant for ancient Israel alone, that I will still have to consider, ESPECIALLY since it's coupled with the command to refrain from making cuts into one's body (which does seem more universal), and is followed by the command to not put sell your daughters into prostitution!

 

That said, we may have a difference of opinion about God's law and its purpose in the life of a Christian. Like you, I believe the principle purpose of the law in the life of a non-Believer (be it the law of Moses, or be it the law that God has written upon each man's heart .. Romans 2:12-16), is to drive us to Christ, because the law shows us who we really are and what we're made of outside of Christ, and it teaches us that we have no hope of being righteous by our own merits.

 

As I said above, it's my belief that "obeying the law" (the moral portions of the law, that is), is simply code for, "obeying Him". That doing so, IOW, choosing to act in the manner the law of God prescribes, is "pleasing" to Him (which has been my principle goal since becoming a Christian 30 yrs ago). It is also a demonstration/justification, John 14:21; James 2:24; 2 John 6 (for my sake and understanding, at least), that I actually do love God, and that I am truly His "masterpiece/workmanship" (i.e. Ephesians 2:10) and a completely "new creature" in His Son (2 Corinthians 5:17). There's far more to this, of course, and I'd be happy to continue this conversation if you'd like to, but I'll stop at this point for now at least.

 

One thing you will never need to do because of me is to protect someone else from my theological "wrath". I talk to others about what I believe and why, but I never insist that anyone else has to believe the same thing I do to be considered a Christian (outside of the Gospel itself, of course), nor do I look down upon them or berate them if they have a different understanding of things like "tattoos". Exactly like you however, I would come to the defense of a young one in Christ, and interestingly, I have an amazingly similar baptism story to tell you.

 

I used to be part of an ecumenical group called, "Prison Family Outreach". We ministered to prisoners and their families. One of the things we did was Sunday morning services at our local Justice Center for the inmates there. I said this group was ecumenical, but it was founded and sponsored by a group from a local "Church of Christ", and guess what part of their message to the men and women in prison was when someone from their church was preaching?

 

Yep, you guessed it, they'd always says something like, "you can ask the Lord to be your Savior, and once you get out of prison and are properly baptized in the manner we prescribe, you can be saved too" :eek:

 

Needless to say, I could barely stop myself from interrupting their sermons at that point, and I made sure that as many inmates as I could talk to afterwards understood that this Church of Christ's opinion of baptism as a absolute requirement for salvation was not a Biblical one, and that they could be "saved" at that very moment if they chose to believe (i.e. John 5:24).

 

The conversation about the Law and its usefulness (or lack there of) for a believer is always interesting to me. Perhaps one of us should start a separate thread about it (although continuing to talk about it in this thread is not going too far off topic, I suppose ;)).

 

Thanks for your patience with me, and I hope what I've said here helps a bit with understanding where I'm coming from.

 

I'll definitely get back to you if I have any new thoughts about tattoos to discuss!

 

Yours in Christ,

David

Edited by David Lee
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William
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I hope you do not view this as 'comparison shopping', but I see the issue as far bigger than tattoos. I would argue that even the 10 commandments are not directly for us. None of the law is to tell us how to live our life after salvation, only to direct us to repentence before salvation. The problem becomes deciding which laws are ceremonial and which are moral? As I pointed out, the verse before the one on tattoos forbids shaving and both come only a few verses after the ten commandments in a chapter ending with a command to keep ALL the laws. Why would God make his moral will so hard to follow?

 

I do not believe that he would or did.

 

Matthew 22:37-40

37 Jesus replied: "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

I believe that Matthew 20:40 holds the key. These two commands are the 'law' that God has written on our new hearts. A law that holds us to a far higher moral standard than anything in the OT, while freeing is from all of the burdens of legalism ... including worying about tattoos.

 

@St_Worm2 @atpollard

 

I think ST_Worm stated an important fact, and clarified that we are not saved by works-righteousness. However, the Moral law is still binding, and so are certain aspects of the Ceremonial law. Really, the laws point to the Good News. The Ceremonial law was given as types and shadows of things to come. Jesus brought them into full light from out of the shadows, they have been revealed to us to our advantage as never seen before, He is now our sacrificial offering from which the Ceremonial laws were pointing. All the Moral and Ceremonial laws are binding without Christ, but they are still binding in the sense of Jesus' fulfillment.

 

Jesus gives us two commandments that summarize all the laws and commands in Scripture. The Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 deal with our relationship with God and then our relationship with other people. One naturally flows out of the other. Without a right relationship with God, our relationships with others will not be right, either. The cause of the world’s problems is that man needs to be reconciled to God. We will never love our neighbor as ourselves if we do not first love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. All of man’s best efforts toward world peace will fail as long as men are living in rebellion against God. When carefully considered, Jesus’ answer to the expert in the law was really a perfect response not only to the Pharisee of His day, but also to all modern-day “Pharisees” who try measure a person’s righteousness by how well he conforms outwardly to a series of laws or commandments.

 

I think it also important to note Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, and Jesus' allusion to Ezekiel 36:25-27:

  • 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
  • 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
  • 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.[a]

And again, I'm not suggesting that one is saved by following the Moral or Ceremonial laws, but I think it is wrong to say that they are not binding to Christians today. It is certainly wrong and detrimental to each of us to suggest that Jesus' sacrifice does not save from which sacrifice came forth from the Ceremonial law.

 

Jesus emphasized that there will be a day when people do not worship the Father here or there (Jerusalem or the mountain the Samaritans had) to the woman at the well. Jesus said we will worship the Father in Spirit and Truth. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit in this statement, and certain Ceremonial laws are very useful in our sacrificial offering. For example, baptism is a spiritual offering made in front of the altar. Should one take heed of:

  • Matthew 5:23-24 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

I actually reconciled my differences with a person that I was convicted in conscience over the week before I was baptized. This particular Scripture always reminded me of this person. Was I wrong for following this Scripture? Certainly, I'm not saying I am an example to be followed, but of Jesus' saying?

 

Take for example your quote, Matthew 37-40 encompasses not only the Ten Commandments, but specifically quoted from out the OT, stating these are the most important laws, literally, they unpack into the Ten Commandments: On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

 

Many people do not realize that to be loving is a command of the Old Testament law. Please consider these two verses:

  • Deuteronomy 6:5, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."
  • Leviticus 19:18, "You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD."

 

We are undoubtedly supposed to love, but keeping the Old Testament command to love God and love your neighbor is not good enough for us to get to heaven. Paul said, “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21). And again, "Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law," (Gal. 3:21). Paul clearly tells us that we cannot obtain the righteousness that we need by keeping the law, which includes loving God and loving your neighbor. So, you cannot love your way into heaven.

 

We get to heaven by receiving Christ as Savior. We do this by faith, not by faith and any work of any kind. We have to understand that we are sinners and there's nothing we can do that will be good enough before God (Rom. 3:10-12; 6:23). If there were, then Jesus didn't need to die. But Jesus who is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14) died on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead (1Corinthians 15:1-4). That is the gospel message. By trusting in Christ and believing in the gospel, we are declared right before God by faith (Romans 4:1-5; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8-9). In other words, when we receive Christ by faith (John 1:12), the righteousness of God is given to us (Philippians 3:9). This is called justification. Justification is a legal standing before God. It means that the one who has trusted in Christ by faith, is now declared legally righteous according to the law. Since the law includes loving God and loving our neighbors, those parts of the law must be fulfilled perfectly. It was Jesus who fulfilled the law without failure. So, we receive by faith what Christ did - which includes loving God and loving our neighbor. Therefore, everything we need is found in Jesus.

 

Remember, if you're going to follow the laws for salvation, then you are not only bound by all laws, but if you fail in just one you transgressed them all, but that is not my point as I am not emphasizing the law as a way that we may obtain Salvation, but they are the way Jesus' obtained Salvation for us. The laws are a necessity in not only demonstrating the need for Christ but also our state of depravity. This is why I prefer sermons and teaching that contrast the law and the Good news.

 

Here's an article to support your position Arthur, but I disagree with the article: http://www.gotquestions.org/ceremonial-law.html

Matter of fact I disagree with a lot Gotquestions has, because they are dispensationalist.

 

The Moral and the Ceremonial. The one, pointing back to creation to keep in remembrance the living God who made the world, whose claims are binding upon all men, and which will exist through all time and eternity. The other, given because of man's transgression of the moral law, the obedience to which consisted in sacrifices and offerings pointing to the future redemption. Each is clear and distinct from the other. From the creation the moral law was an essential part of God's divine plan, and was as unchangeable as himself. The ceremonial law was to answer a particular purpose of Christ plan for the salvation of the race. The typical system of sacrifices and offerings was established that through these services the sinner might discern the great offering, Christ.

 

Here's a sermon from my Pastor on this last Sunday. I think you will appreciate it greatly should you find time to listen to it: https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...t-saints-saved

 

Lastly, I am not suggesting that a person is not saved because they have a Tattoo, but I am saying that a Christian that suggests that getting a Tattoo isn't an issue from a Scriptural standpoint raises red flags, especially considering all Scripture is God breathed. They are undoubtedly ignoring a central theme in the OT, which is to not be caught up in the Culture, many Christians are "unwittingly" absorbed into today's Culture, and they resemble Culture more than they do a Holy Peoples.

 

God bless,

William

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atpollard

 

@St_Worm2 @atpollard

 

I think ST_Worm stated an important fact, and clarified that we are not saved by works-righteousness. However, the Moral law is still binding, and so are certain aspects of the Ceremonial law. Really, the laws point to the Good News. The Ceremonial law was given as types and shadows of things to come. Jesus brought them into full light from out of the shadows, they have been revealed to us to our advantage as never seen before, He is now our sacrificial offering from which the Ceremonial laws were pointing. All the Moral and Ceremonial laws are binding without Christ, but they are still binding in the sense of Jesus' fulfillment.

 

Jesus gives us two commandments that summarize all the laws and commands in Scripture. The Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 deal with our relationship with God and then our relationship with other people. One naturally flows out of the other. Without a right relationship with God, our relationships with others will not be right, either. The cause of the world’s problems is that man needs to be reconciled to God. We will never love our neighbor as ourselves if we do not first love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. All of man’s best efforts toward world peace will fail as long as men are living in rebellion against God. When carefully considered, Jesus’ answer to the expert in the law was really a perfect response not only to the Pharisee of His day, but also to all modern-day “Pharisees” who try measure a person’s righteousness by how well he conforms outwardly to a series of laws or commandments.

 

I think it also important to note Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, and Jesus' allusion to Ezekiel 36:25-27:

  • 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
  • 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
  • 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.[a]

 

And again, I'm not suggesting that one is saved by following the Moral or Ceremonial laws, but I think it is wrong to say that they are not binding to Christians today. It is certainly wrong and detrimental to each of us to suggest that Jesus' sacrifice does not save from which sacrifice came forth from the Ceremonial law.

 

Jesus emphasized that there will be a day when people do not worship the Father here or there (Jerusalem or the mountain the Samaritans had) to the woman at the well. Jesus said we will worship the Father in Spirit and Truth. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit in this statement, and certain Ceremonial laws are very useful. For example, baptism is a spiritual offering made in front of the altar. Should one take heed of:

  • Matthew 5:23-24 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

 

I actually reconciled my differences with a person that I was convicted in conscience over the week before I was baptized. This particular Scripture always reminded me of this person. Was I wrong for following this Scripture? Certainly, I'm not saying I am an example to be followed, but of Jesus' saying?

 

Take for example your quote, Matthew 37-40 encompasses not only the Ten Commandments, but specifically quoted from out the OT, stating these are the most important laws, literally, they unpack into the Ten Commandments: On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

 

Many people do not realize that to be loving is a command of the Old Testament law. Please consider these two verses:

  • Deuteronomy 6:5, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."
  • Leviticus 19:18, "You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD."

 

 

 

 

Remember, if you're going to follow the laws for salvation, then you are not only bound by all laws, but if you fail in just one you transgressed them all, but that is not my point as I am not emphasizing the law as a way that we may obtain Salvation, but they are the way Jesus' obtained Salvation for us. The laws are a necessity in not only demonstrating the need for Christ but also our state of depravity. This is why I prefer sermons and teaching that contrast the law and the Good news.

 

Here's an article to support your position Arthur, but I disagree with the article: http://www.gotquestions.org/ceremonial-law.html

Matter of fact I disagree with a lot Gotquestions has, because they are dispensationalist.

 

The moral and the ceremonial. The one, pointing back to creation to keep in remembrance the living God who made the world, whose claims are binding upon all men, and which will exist through all time and eternity. The other, given because of man's transgression of the moral law, the obedience to which consisted in sacrifices and offerings pointing to the future redemption. Each is clear and distinct from the other. From the creation the moral law was an essential part of God's divine plan, and was as unchangeable as himself. The ceremonial law was to answer a particular purpose of Christ plan for the salvation of the race. The typical system of sacrifices and offerings was established that through these services the sinner might discern the great offering, Christ.

 

Here's a sermon from my Pastor on this last Sunday. I think you will appreciate it greatly should you find time to listen to it: https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...t-saints-saved

 

Lastly, I am not suggesting that a person is not saved because they have a Tattoo, but I am saying that a Christian that suggests getting a Tattoo raises red flags, especially considering all Scripture is God breathed. They are undoubtedly ignoring a central theme in the OT, which is to not be caught up in the Culture, many Christians are "unwittingly" absorbed into today's Culture, and they resemble Culture more than they do a Holy Peoples.

 

God bless,

William

 

Will you place cloth made from blended fabrics and shaving (both also forbidden) on the exact same level as a tattoo?

Why are you not calling into question a Christian contemplating a cotton/polyester blend shirt?

 

It is not the Law that I object to as much as it is the notion that "It is all important" followed immediately by cherry picking from adjacent verses!

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William
Staff

 

Will you place cloth made from blended fabrics and shaving (both also forbidden) on the exact same level as a tattoo?

Why are you not calling into question a Christian contemplating a cotton/polyester blend shirt?

 

It is not the Law that I object to as much as it is the notion that "It is all important" followed immediately by cherry picking from adjacent verses!

 

I did address it. In the very end of my last paragraph. The Ceremonial laws pointed forward (type and shadow of things to come), even Paul expresses a point in 2 Corinthians 6 that can be founded on Deuteronomy 22:11 and Leviticus 19:19:

 

They are undoubtedly ignoring a central theme in the OT, which is to not be caught up in the Culture, many Christians are "unwittingly" absorbed into today's Culture, and they resemble Culture more than they do a Holy Peoples.

 

God bless,

William

 

 

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atpollard
I did address it. In the very end of my last paragraph. The Ceremonial laws pointed forward (type and shadow of things to come), even Paul expresses a point in 2 Corinthians 6 that can be founded on Deuteronomy 22:11 and Leviticus 19:19:

 

God bless,

William

How is a poor slob like me to know that shaving is ceremonial, but the next verse on tattoos is moral?

Which is prostitution (the verse after tattoos)?

 

How about the verse at the end of the chapter that says OBEY ALL THE LAWS?

 

I understand the concept, but the way it is parsed makes it IMPOSSIBLE to know whether any particular OT Law is still a moral imperative or fulfilled in Christ.

Unless you think that the Ceremonial Law needs to be obeyed, too. Then where is the outrage about hair and cloth?

 

Tell me, Which moral law can be violated while still keeping the Greatest Commandment and the Second Greatest Commandment as presented from the lips of Jesus?

I do not argue that the 10 commandments are invalid, I argue that they are superfluous. God has them covered with two stricter commands that are easier to remember.

 

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William
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How is a poor slob like me to know that shaving is ceremonial, but the next verse on tattoos is moral?

Which is prostitution (the verse after tattoos)?

 

How about the verse at the end of the chapter that says OBEY ALL THE LAWS?

 

I understand the concept, but the way it is parsed makes it IMPOSSIBLE to know whether any particular OT Law is still a moral imperative or fulfilled in Christ.

Unless you think that the Ceremonial Law needs to be obeyed, too. Then where is the outrage about hair and cloth?

 

Tell me, Which moral law can be violated while still keeping the Greatest Commandment and the Second Greatest Commandment as presented from the lips of Jesus?

I do not argue that the 10 commandments are invalid, I argue that they are superfluous. God has them covered with two stricter commands that are easier to remember.

  • John 1:17 “The Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.”

Now I'm sure our theology may differ (and that's okay), because I believe the Church is Israel. Again, this is seen through typology and Covenant theology. If you have a chance, I included a link about how Old Testament saints were saved, I think you'll find it very satisfying, which consistently views Salvation from a Reformed perspective. Again I want to clarify, I'm not suggesting that we are saved by the law. But I think its emphasis should be taught, because otherwise it waters down the fulfillment and need of God's grace. https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...t-saints-saved

 

Again, don't blur this with Salvation. But I think you'll agree that my points are solid? God called and described Israel as a whore, because of her whoredom (prostituting after other gods), and even being mentioned in Revelation 17, the nation of Israel were to be set apart, a holy peoples, distinct from the surrounding nations and culture. Is this not consistent with the context of the laws we are discussing?

  • Ezekiel 16:35-40 35 “Therefore, O prostitute, hear the word of the Lord: 36 Thus says the Lord God, Because your lust was poured out and your nakedness uncovered in your whorings with your lovers, and with all your abominable idols, and because of the blood of your children that you gave to them, 37 therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved and all those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side and will uncover your nakedness to them, that they may see all your nakedness. 38 And I will judge you as women who commit adultery and shed blood are judged, and bring upon you the blood of wrath and jealousy. 39 And I will give you into their hands, and they shall throw down your vaulted chamber and break down your lofty places. They shall strip you of your clothes and take your beautiful jewels and leave you naked and bare. 40 They shall bring up a crowd against you, and they shall stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords.
  • Ezekiel 20:30 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and go whoring after their detestable things?

Mind if I say, you ask where is the outrage about hair and cloth, but I think you're not grasping typological "fulfillment"? I can't say that I am outraged by people not knowing these things, or because they don't practice them, but I am a little disturbed that some denominations do not emphasize the law. All Scripture is God breathed, Arthur, and applicable for us today. When a person says to do things that are not to be done in Scripture that is not later annotated I listen closely?

 

Granted, we are all at different stages in both knowledge, and discipline, but I'm sure you'll agree that the Church of Christ should be distinct from the world.

 

God bless,

William

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