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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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joshuap

Abortion and Rape Victims

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joshuap

This topic has come up a few times back in High School as when debate came up during pro choice issues. Abortion is wrong in the eyes of the lord. That is my understanding of it. But what about those women that had been raped and was left with a unwanted pregnancy? Should they keep the baby under those circumstance? Will god forgive them if they do have an abortion after a evil crime such as rape?

 

I know a few girls that had been molested and raped by their fathers or close relatives. They had gotten abortions but now have conflicting feelings about it. They were subjected to a evil crime, but now feel that they have sinned due to an abortion.

 

Your thoughts on the matter?

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William
Staff
This topic has come up a few times back in High School as when debate came up during pro choice issues. Abortion is wrong in the eyes of the lord. That is my understanding of it. But what about those women that had been raped and was left with a unwanted pregnancy? Should they keep the baby under those circumstance? Will god forgive them if they do have an abortion after a evil crime such as rape?

 

I know a few girls that had been molested and raped by their fathers or close relatives. They had gotten abortions but now have conflicting feelings about it. They were subjected to a evil crime, but now feel that they have sinned due to an abortion.

 

Your thoughts on the matter?

 

G'day Joshuap,

 

Lemme ask you a simple question, please answer directly. Which is worse, rape or murder?

 

As to your second statement, what sin has the child committed as a result of rape? Do you consider the child innocent in all this?

 

Please consider Proverbs 6:16-19

  • 16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
  • seven that are an abomination to him:
  • 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
  • and hands that shed innocent blood,
  • 18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
  • feet that make haste to run to evil,
  • 19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
  • and one who sows discord among brothers.

They have sinned in your example by having an abortion. The question then is whether the sin is forgivable, and whether someone should promote sin if they have been forgiven. If someone repents of their sin and promotes abortion as being "the right way" to go, have they truly repented of their sin? How can they if they see no wrong in it?

 

Back at you, care to share any further thoughts?

 

God bless,

William

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joshuap

Well, in relation to how the girl feels..........she was the one that was raped and had to get the abortion. I will have my opinion as to what is right and wrong. In the literal sense, on paper it decrees on thing, but you apply it in actual terms and the women that are being raped and aborting the baby. the guilt, the shame, and everything else that is built up.........how would you explain that to her.

 

I mean get where you are coming from. But how would you tell that to someone, show has deeply scared emotions on the subject?

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William
Staff
Well, in relation to how the girl feels..........she was the one that was raped and had to get the abortion. I will have my opinion as to what is right and wrong. In the literal sense, on paper it decrees on thing, but you apply it in actual terms and the women that are being raped and aborting the baby. the guilt, the shame, and everything else that is built up.........how would you explain that to her.

 

I mean get where you are coming from. But how would you tell that to someone, show has deeply scared emotions on the subject?

 

Just to clarify, are you suggesting that emotion or feelings should be the guide of our conscience?

 

How would I convey what I said above? I would convey what I said above through the Scripture. If you're asking how one can feel better about themselves for taking the life of an innocent party, then that in itself is a different question. Do you not think that there should be emotional scarring and deep guilt from taking an innocent life? Two crimes have been committed here Joshuap, but it seems that you are asking whether one crime justifies the second or repaying evil with evil is right?

 

God bless,

William

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joshuap

I do know girls that are going through this. I just want to know how to tell them. I can read scriptures to them, but maybe it's just not my place at the moment. I would be doing more harm then good as I am not trained enough to handle such matters.

 

That's why we have elders to handle such things.

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William
Staff
I do know girls that are going through this. I just want to know how to tell them. I can read scriptures to them, but maybe it's just not my place at the moment. I would be doing more harm then good as I am not trained enough to handle such matters.

 

That's why we have elders to handle such things.

 

Forgiveness of our sins can only be found through Christ Jesus, Joshuap. The Law convicts us of our wrong doing. If one does not believe what they did was wrong, I personally cannot see how they will confess or repent of their sins. Abortion is forgivable, but not all are forgiven for abortions. For example, what about the person that conspired to take the life of the innocent and sees no wrong in it, I speak of the doctor?

 

I can empathize with you, on one hand you wish to relieve the guilty party of their guilt and resulting hurt, on the second you may be confused about whether you should relieve the party of their guilt. This is for God alone, and I think your part in all this may very well be sharing the gospel or even giving to them a Bible and answering any questions to the best of your ability should they arise - 1 Peter 3:15

 

God bless,

William

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joshuap

 

Forgiveness of our sins can only be found through Christ Jesus, Joshuap. The Law convicts us of our wrong doing. If one does not believe what they did was wrong, I personally cannot see how they will confess or repent of their sins. Abortion is forgivable, but not all are forgiven for abortions. For example, what about the person that conspired to take the life of the innocent and sees no wrong in it, I speak of the doctor?

 

I can empathize with you, on one hand you wish to relieve the guilty party of their guilt and resulting hurt, on the second you may be confused about whether you should relieve the party of their guilt. This is for God alone, and I think your part in all this may very well be sharing the gospel or even giving to them a Bible and answering any questions to the best of your ability should they arise - 1 Peter 3:15

 

God bless,

William

 

Also, to add to that..........if I don't know the answer or I'm too emotional to give any, I can easily refer to someone with a better handling of the scriptures. There are somethings that only years of experiences can prepare you for. This may be one of them for me.

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William
Staff

This will take about 30 minutes of your time. I include this because there is one person in the video towards the end that reveals she has committed an abortion. Lets put aside your friends for a moment, and concentrate on equipping you.

 

 

https://carm.org/are-you-christian-w...s-had-abortion

 

I will pray for both you, your friends and the innocent babies that were prematurely ended Joshuap. May God guide both your heart and mind in these troubled times to be of service to Him.

 

God bless, Joshuap.

William

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atpollard

Also, to add to that..........if I don't know the answer or I'm too emotional to give any, I can easily refer to someone with a better handling of the scriptures. There are somethings that only years of experiences can prepare you for. This may be one of them for me.

Greetings,

 

Congratulations on your decision to wade into the deep waters of caring and doing something about something.

Most people prefer to wade in the ankle deep waters of 'what if' where all of the discussion is safe and costs nothing.

Once you start dealing with real people, the answers matter. Even more, the TRUTH matters. God will not be changing his standard because someone was well intentioned, but wrong. God's answer is what it is. The best thing we can do for anyone is to at least tell them the truth ... which means that we need to do the actual work of finding out what the TRUTH really is.

 

Easing someon's conscience on the way to sin is as bad as piling on guilt that they have no business carrying.

They need to feel guilty for what God says they are guilty of, and they need to feel forgiven of what God says they are forgiven of.

That is the goal to be strived for.

 

Just a small point to add, your quote above suggests the erroneous attitude that someone else is more qualified than you.

There are unquestionably people who know more than you, and that is true no matter how much you know.

However, no person on the face of the earth is more qualified or better equipped to do "the works which God has prepared in advance" for YOU to do.

After all, if you are saved/born again/chosen/the elect (pick your favorite Christianese term), then you ONLY have the third person of the Triune God dwelling within you and empowering you to DO the work that HE has prepared for you. If God has given you a heart that cares about their pain, then it is probably YOUR job to say or do something to help them.

 

They need TRUTH and they need LOVE and they need FORGIVENESS ... just like the rest of us who have sinned.

Nobody gets a free ride (there are no good excuses to sin) and nobody is beyond forgiveness (on this side of the grave).

 

Good Luck.

Be a friend.

 

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Tshaka

WOW, I cannot believe this. I'am always posting up, debating, and talking about abortion. I had a Facebook friend of mine who asked me what about abortion in regards to rape. I believe that if life begins at the moment of conception then rape or not abortion is still wrong. Abortion and the abortion debate is much more complex and convoluted than just simply a woman's choice. Abortion is, has been, and will always be about eugenics and population control. As for as rape is concerned I do believe that abortion should be an option. Rape, incest, or for the life of the mother abortion should be an option. According to many studies the number of abortion that takes place from the result of rape is somewhat slim. The narrative is that abortion is justified because of rape, well that conversation is more complex than just a paragraph or too. I think it should be determined on a case by case basis.

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joshuap

Greetings,

 

Congratulations on your decision to wade into the deep waters of caring and doing something about something.

Most people prefer to wade in the ankle deep waters of 'what if' where all of the discussion is safe and costs nothing.

Once you start dealing with real people, the answers matter. Even more, the TRUTH matters. God will not be changing his standard because someone was well intentioned, but wrong. God's answer is what it is. The best thing we can do for anyone is to at least tell them the truth ... which means that we need to do the actual work of finding out what the TRUTH really is.

 

Easing someon's conscience on the way to sin is as bad as piling on guilt that they have no business carrying.

They need to feel guilty for what God says they are guilty of, and they need to feel forgiven of what God says they are forgiven of.

That is the goal to be strived for.

 

Just a small point to add, your quote above suggests the erroneous attitude that someone else is more qualified than you.

There are unquestionably people who know more than you, and that is true no matter how much you know.

However, no person on the face of the earth is more qualified or better equipped to do "the works which God has prepared in advance" for YOU to do.

After all, if you are saved/born again/chosen/the elect (pick your favorite Christianese term), then you ONLY have the third person of the Triune God dwelling within you and empowering you to DO the work that HE has prepared for you. If God has given you a heart that cares about their pain, then it is probably YOUR job to say or do something to help them.

 

They need TRUTH and they need LOVE and they need FORGIVENESS ... just like the rest of us who have sinned.

Nobody gets a free ride (there are no good excuses to sin) and nobody is beyond forgiveness (on this side of the grave).

 

Good Luck.

Be a friend.

 

The bottom line is this. I'm a person of very little words. I mean well, but I get tongue tied when emotions is involved. That is the reason why I turn to church elders for guidance. As I am not well versed and able to explain right from wrong as well as they can. I turn to them because that is what they are there for. Everyone needs help and sometimes I need to turn to someone for help as well.

 

 

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atpollard

 

The bottom line is this. I'm a person of very little words. I mean well, but I get tongue tied when emotions is involved. That is the reason why I turn to church elders for guidance. As I am not well versed and able to explain right from wrong as well as they can. I turn to them because that is what they are there for. Everyone needs help and sometimes I need to turn to someone for help as well.

 

 

The reality is that there are people in the world who might listen to you that will not listen to someone else.

So which is better, a poorly worded message that is heard, or a well delivered message that is not heard?

 

(and yes, I agree that it is scary)

 

So by all means, turn to Church Elders to help guide YOU, but don't expect other people to do everything for you.

God has created work for every Christian.

No one else can do your job, they can only help you to do your job.

[shrug]

 

Grace and Peace to you,

Arthur

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theophilus

If a rape victim has an abortion she might be destroying the only good that can come out of what happened to her. Are you familiar with the story of Joseph in the Old Testament? He was sold into slavery by his brothers and then thrown into prison for a crime he didn't commit. Yet in spite of all his suffering he recognized that God was in control and using his suffering to bring about God. A woman who becomes pregnant as a result of rape needs to exercise the same kind of faith Joseph had.

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joshuap
If a rape victim has an abortion she might be destroying the only good that can come out of what happened to her. Are you familiar with the story of Joseph in the Old Testament? He was sold into slavery by his brothers and then thrown into prison for a crime he didn't commit. Yet in spite of all his suffering he recognized that God was in control and using his suffering to bring about God. A woman who becomes pregnant as a result of rape needs to exercise the same kind of faith Joseph had.

 

Do you still feel the same if a father rapes his only daughter, and she should still have the baby?

 

I think it's easier said then done.

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henryb3rd

Abortion. This is a topic that is just as important as murder. As far as religiously, is it ok to end a life for any reason? No. It's not. No matter what someone believes, no one has the right to take a life. No one does, because no life is better than another. But, the Bible nor any other religious book speaks about when life starts. Not for humans nor animals. So when it comes down to it, when does life start. At birth, a certain trimester, conception, or when the two halves that are necessary for life are created by the body. Some may think that is a science question, but it's not. It's a question of belief. So in the end, is Abortion a sin? My opinion is it's whatever a woman believes when she comes to that choice.

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cecejailer

I'm a feminist and even with that, I really question abortion. Is it really that moral, is it really about freedom of choice? If I were to get pregnant with a baby I didn't want, I'd feel like I owe the baby at least 9 months in my body, so it can grow healthy, like every child deserves to grow. If I didn't want to keep the baby, I'd just give it up for adoption. It's not that hard. What's nine months of your life compared to a lifelong feeling of guilt? I know people who've had abortions and even as liberal as they are, they can't feel but feel bad. Abortion not only kills the child, it also deeply scars the mind of the mother. It's not an easy choice. Rape victims should be allowed to choose to abort, I think every woman should, but we need to keep in mind that it's not the only option. You can go through a pregnancy and not have to deal with the baby. There are lots of couples who can't have children and are looking for people just like you!

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atpollard
Do you still feel the same if a father rapes his only daughter, and she should still have the baby?

I think it's easier said then done.

 

According to you, THEY feel they should have had the baby rather than kill it:

I know a few girls that had been molested and raped by their fathers or close relatives. They had gotten abortions but now have conflicting feelings about it. They were subjected to a evil crime, but now feel that they have sinned due to an abortion.

 

I can't undo the pain of the rape, but I can encourage them to avoid the pain of committing murder.

Paint whatever clever spin on it you want, the baby was alive and now its dead and THE MOTHER'S CHOICE caused that.

 

Of course, 'rape and incest' is really a red herring in the general Abortion debate since 99% of abortions are about unplanned pregnancy rather than 'rape/incest'.

So let's ask the real question: Is it OK for a woman to murder a baby because pregnancy is really inconvenient at this time? ... that's the majority of the cases ... the law says 'Yes.' Right up into the third trimester in some states.

 

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theophilus

 

Do you still feel the same if a father rapes his only daughter, and she should still have the baby?

 

I think it's easier said then done.

 

Yes, doing the right thing if often hard, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the right thing to do.

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lexinonomous

I am very pro-choice, which isn't popular among my church. There are so many situations where a woman might have to get an abortion. If giving birth means losing your life, along with the child's, I think it's best to abort the fetus. It's such a touchy subject, but there are enough women going into clinics saying everything you could imagine to themselves. They have already condemned themselves and don't need to hear it from others. I can understand why people are upset by the idea of abortion, but I'm even more so upset by the idea of someone thinking it's okay to rape. I would much rather have a woman abort her fetus, rather than live with the pain of knowing her child was an act of rape and terror. It's not a popular opinion, but I can understand why someone would go through with the procedure.

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theophilus
If giving birth means losing your life, along with the child's, I think it's best to abort the fetus.

In a situation like this abortion is justified. But how many abortions are for this reason?

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William
Staff

In a situation like this abortion is justified. But how many abortions are for this reason?

 

Statistics show less than 2 percent of all abortions are for reasons of either the mother's health or child's health.

 

I would much rather have a woman abort her fetus, rather than live with the pain of knowing her child was an act of rape and terror. It's not a popular opinion, but I can understand why someone would go through with the procedure.

 

You mean you can actually understand self sacrifice rather than laying another life on the altar of self to be sacrificed?

 

God bless,

William

 

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2010Bentley

I personally cannot believe that God would not forgive anyone of anything, if it is asked of him, sincerely, in prayer.

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LeapOfFaith89

In the case of rape, I would leave the bible out of it. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 basically implies that woman should marry their rapist but only if he got caught in the act. And according to Deuteronomy 22:23-24, "if within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife. As for the child, David's kid was killed because he had an affair with another man's wife, (2 Samuel 12:11-14), so the innocent kid logic doesn't stand true in the bible. Most of the other rape of female captives were done in war, Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Judges 5:30, and Zachariah 14:1-2. Exodus 21:7-11 also explains how a father can sell his daughter as a slave and the only way out is for her to marry her master unless he fails to meet his requirements. The Bible has never really cared about raped woman so don't bring it up to your friends, it's horrible.

 

This isn't Biblical, but I think a woman has a right to take the day after pill or the pill within the first term to get rid of the rapist's child. it's needlessly cruel to subject a woman to nine month reminder that she was raped. She is never going to look at that child and not see her rapist. Plus, there is always a risk that her own health would be in danger if she continued through wit the pregnancy, no matter how small. It's not ideal, ideal would be that she could carry to term and then give the child up for adoption. But reality is that giving birth is dangerous and expensive. I don't think it's fair to shame woman for getting an abortion under those reasons. This of course doesn't extend to those who casually have sex with countless of people and don't use protection or third term abortions unless for health reasons.

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artyarson

Of course, there should be an abortion If the potential mother was just raped by some random dude. I know, many of you are advocating pro-life/pro-birth thing. However, most of you haven't been in those situations yourselves. Hopefully, you will never be, as it's just terrible. Would you rather give birth to an embryo that was concept that way or choose abortion to avoid a negative turnaround in your life? Giving birth to a child is a very serious issue and you should think million times before doing anything related to that.

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Smithee

It's entirely up to the woman who has been raped to decide whether they will get an abortion. The law shouldn't forbid it. God gave us all free will. He could have forced us to obey His commandments but He didn't because He knew we all are capable of doing the right thing. If we don't do the right thing . . . well, we won't get away with it. Maybe those who are rape victims should take comfort in the fact that the rapists will in the end be punished?

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