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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
William

All 613 Laws of the Old Testament

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A list of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) According to the Hebrew sages, the commandments that cannot be observed today primarily relate to the Temple, and its sacrifices and services because the temple does not exist today. There are Commandments that only apply in Israel.

 

The 10 Words (Commandments) of the LORD God are a delight to follow and love. Just like what King David (the Jewish patriarchal line of the Yeshua (Jesus) prayed, "I delight to do your will, O, God. Your Law is within my heart (my innermost being)"-- NASB, CJB version).Psalm 40:8.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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What do you mean by some of the OT laws still apply and some don't?

 

On what basis do you obey some and not obey others?

 

Try Acts 15.23-29. The Decalogue isn't mentioned, but I suppose they could take it granted that the recipients of their letter would have already been made familiar with that.

 

Then there is the general tenor of all Paul's epistles.

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Seems like people would Rather live by a bunch of laws / being told what to do and the consequences of disobeying --- Rather than trust a relationship with God through Jesus Christ / the Holy Spirit being our conscience / being responsible to God For our actions / choices.

 

From the Human standpoint -- relationships Can be very unstable / untrustworthy. We have a hard time trusting that God Will always be with us -- will never leave us or forsake us. That He , alone, knows what's best for each person. People can be very selfish / self-serving. And there Are negative consequences to that.

 

Everyone has a set of civil laws that we are responsible to know and obey. No matter where a person lives. And most of them are based on the Ten Commandments / common sense / Biblical morality, ethics. Though Society doesn't want to admit it. And there are those who are willing to live Outside of Any law -- simply to prove that they are capable of doing what They want to do.

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Quite interesting but how many of these are laws for Christians?

 

The laws within the Torah (Pentateuch = Books of Moses = first five books of the Bible) can be broken down into at least ten categories, and the focus must always be on the first category -- which is spiritual. So when you look at those 613 laws (and that is a number commonly used, which may or may not be exact) here is what you find:

 

1. SPIRITUAL (the Ten Commandments, which are eternal and binding on all including Christians)

 

2. MORAL (e.g. Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger )

 

3. SOCIAL (e.g. Not to intermarry with gentiles )

 

4. CIVIL (e.g. Not to withhold food, clothing or conjugal rights from a wife)

 

5. CRIMINAL (e.g. Not to spare a pursuer, but he is to be slain before he reaches the pursued and slays the latter, or uncovers his nakedness)

 

6. SACRIFICIAL (all laws pertaining to the Tabernacle, the Temple, the Sacrifices and the Levitical Priestood. These were rendered null and void on the Cross of Calvary).

 

7. CEREMONIAL (e.g. To circumcise the male offspring)

 

8. FESTIVE (all the feasts, festivals, sabbaths, new moons, and holy days are deemed to be shadows only, therefore null and void. The reality is Christ e.g. "Christ OUR PASSOVER is sacrificed for us).

 

9. DIETARY (all the dietary laws are null and void and Christians are at liberty to eat all meats with prayer and thanksgiving)

 

10. COMMANDMENTS FOR GENTILES WITHIN THE CHURCH (As per Acts 15 -- (1) consumption of blood is forbidden, (2) consumption of meats strangled is forbidden, (3) fornication is forbidden, and (4) meats offered to idols are forbidden.

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So then a Christian may murder, covet his neighbor's stuff, commit adultery, and have other gods?

 

The things you mention are against God’s moral law. That law exists for all people.

 

The laws of the Sinai Covenant were a codification of those moral laws for the Israelites, together with ceremonial laws and social laws. As such they are not applicable to us.

 

Murder was wrong before God gave the Israelites their covenant laws.

 

But we are in a different Covenant with a different set of laws. They are set out in the New Testament. Of course all the moral laws are the same. For example murder (1Jn 3:15) and adultery (Heb 13:4), but other laws are not.

 

Let me put it this way.

 

I live in the UK. I don’t know where you live but let’s say it’s the USA. If I commit murder here in the UK I will be convicted under UK laws. If I were to go to America and committed murder I would be convicted under USA law. Similarly if you came over here and committed murder you would be convicted under UK law not US law.

 

We need to understand which jurisdiction we are living under. Christians are living under the New Covenant not the Sinai Covenant.

How do you determine which are universal moral laws? Are the universal moral laws identical with the 7 Noahide Laws?

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So then a Christian may murder, covet his neighbor's stuff, commit adultery, and have other gods?

 

The things you mention are against God’s moral law. That law exists for all people.

 

The laws of the Sinai Covenant were a codification of those moral laws for the Israelites, together with ceremonial laws and social laws. As such they are not applicable to us.

 

Murder was wrong before God gave the Israelites their covenant laws.

 

But we are in a different Covenant with a different set of laws. They are set out in the New Testament. Of course all the moral laws are the same. For example murder (1Jn 3:15) and adultery (Heb 13:4), but other laws are not.

 

Let me put it this way.

 

I live in the UK. I don’t know where you live but let’s say it’s the USA. If I commit murder here in the UK I will be convicted under UK laws. If I were to go to America and committed murder I would be convicted under USA law. Similarly if you came over here and committed murder you would be convicted under UK law not US law.

 

We need to understand which jurisdiction we are living under. Christians are living under the New Covenant not the Sinai Covenant.

Yes, Christians Are living under the New Covenant. Loving the Lord our God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbor as ourselves. Galations 3:24 -- the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ so that we are justified by faith.

Romans 10:4.

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The Law has Changed.

 

The believer in Jesus Christ is under the Commands in the New Testament (that come from Jesus and His followers). However, the Mosaic Law (as a whole package deal) no longer exists. It became obsolete with Christ's death. It is obvious the Old Law does not still exist (as a whole) because various commands in the New Testament have changed what the Old Law says. For example: Paul says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Jesus says to us that we are no longer to render an eye for an eye but we are to turn the other cheek. When Jesus died upon the cross, the temple veil was torn letting us know that the laws on the priesthood and the animal sacrifices were no longer valid anymore. Jesus is our Heavenly High Priest and He is our Passover Lamb. Paul says we are no longer to judge according to Sabbaths and holy days. Peter was told to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law).

 

However, just because the OT Law is obsolete as a whole, does not mean God does not have other laws (or commands) for us today. In fact, one must understand that God has "Eternal Moral Laws" for man since after his "fall" in the Garden. After the "fall": It was always wrong to murder, commit adultery, sleep with one's parents, get drunk, hate your brother, covet, lie, commit idolatry, etc. These Moral laws existed before the written Law and they still exist today. The written Law of Moses merely repeated them or emphasized them. But in addition to these moral laws, there were laws (within the Old Law) that were exclusive to the nation of Israel. These are ceremonial laws (like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, the dietary laws, animal sacrifices involving a priesthood) and civil laws (like on how to manage farming etc.) and judicial laws (like regulating legal matters). There were a total of 613 Commands in the Old Testament Law of Moses. Some of these Laws are God's Eternal Moral Laws; Others are exclusively for Israel and do not apply to us. Believers today are under the New Testament (i.e. the New Covenant) with new laws (Which would include God's Eternal Moral Laws). Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed (along with the change of the priesthood).

 

Jesus did not come to abrogate God's Eternal Moral Laws (like do not murder, do not hate, do not commit adultery, do not steal, etc.). Jesus nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (like the Saturday Sabbath, the death penalty for disobeying God's laws, circumcision, the dietary laws, etc.) (See Colossians 2:14-17). Jesus says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17). So Jesus did not come to destroy all Law and it's consequences but He came to fulfill them into their true intended purpose with the commands given to us within the New Testament. These many commands in the NT are based on love. Love God and love your neighbor.

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A practical codification of the Commandments, and the Rules of Rectitude, and the Judgments which YHWH gave in charge between Himself and the children of Israel by the ministration of Moses, from the Greek LXX, Codex Vaticanus B, the only approved translation of the ancient Hebrew manuscripts no longer in existence, by the High Priest and the Sanhedrin. In the translation of Charles Thomson, Secretary of the Continental Congress of the United States of America, 1774-1789. As recorded in the Official Canon of the Order of the Fourth Philosophy. theonomous.org

Official-Canon-of-the-Order-of-the-Fourth-Philosophy.pdf

Edited by tubal
Mistakes

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Here's a passage all Christians should continue to read, mark and learn and inwardly digest:

Acts 15:1-29
(1)  And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved.
(2)  When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
(3)  And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
(4)  And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
(5)  But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
(6)  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
(7)  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, you know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
(8)  And God, which knows the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
(9)  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
(10)  Now therefore why tempt you God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(11)  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
(12)  Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
(13)  And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
(14)  Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
(15)  And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
(16)  After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
(17)  That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who doeth all these things.
(18)  Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
(19)  Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
(20)  But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

(21)  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(22)  Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
(23)  And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
(24)  Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, You must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
(25)  It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
(26)  Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(27)  We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
(28)  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
(29)  That you abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if you keep yourselves, you shall do well. Fare you well.

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On 7/1/2018 at 4:08 PM, Placable37 said:

Acts 15:1-29

To add further to your good post, as per ACTS.15:1-29 & 21:20-25, God had required Jewish Christians to continue to keep the 613 laws of Moses(as many laws as possible today) because it was not a burden to them; while only requiring Gentile Christians to keep the non-burdensome laws of Moses, so as not to burden them and cause them to abandon the faith.

 

As per GALATIANS.2:9-17, the works of the Law does not save people from hell when they die; only faith in Jesus Christ saves. Nevertheless, the Law does save people from the earthly curses of God = a good, peaceful, joyful, loving and long life on earth - "Go and sin no more"(JOHN.5:14 & 8:11).

 

Many Gentiles had lead lawless lives from childhood = entangled in sinful/lawless lifestyles and their horrible consequences. When such Gentiles become Christians, they may still be entrenched in their former sinful/lawless lifestyle, eg suffering drug addicts/alcoholics, STD/HIV, ancestral sins, demonic oppression/mental disorders, etc. So, for such Gentile Christians, they can remain as they are and still be saved by faith in Christ, eg can remain as drug addicts or alcoholics, even though they would be in suffering = a sad and short life on earth but will still inherit eternal life in heaven.

....... Eg US Law permits addictive caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, marijuana, psychotropic prescription pills; divorce, adultery, fornication, homosexuality/LGBTQ, sodomy, witchcraft/sorcery, apostasy/blasphemy, idolatry, etc. God's Law or Moses Law does not.

.

 

Before Christ(= before 33AD), only Jews who had kept Moses Law were saved from hell when they died, eg beggar Lazarus, Moses and Elijah; while Jews who broke Moses Law unrepentantly were not saved from hell, eg the rich Jew, Jannes and Jambres - LUKE.16:19-31(cf; DEUT.15:11), MATTHEW.17:3 & 27:52, 1PETER.3:19 & 4:6, ie the law-abiding Jews were given the opportunity to hear Jesus Christ after they died.

....... After the Advent of Jesus Christ to earth(= after the death and resurrection of JC in 33AD), law-abiding Jews were no longer given this opportunity, ie they were required to hear the gospel of Christ and believe in Him, in order to be saved from hell. Later, this same requirement of faith in Christ applied to the mostly lawless and problematic Gentiles.

 

Till today, the Jews still "falsely" believe that they will be saved from hell by just keeping Moses Law or as many of the 613 laws as possible.

Edited by discipler77
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7 hours ago, tahaadi said:

Do we have to follow Old Testament laws as Christians ?

 

Tahaadi, I'd like to draw your attention to this category forum's description, "The Law drives us to the Gospel that we are justified, then sends us to the Law again to show us our duty now that we are justified."

 

Whether you feel obligated to "walk more worthily" in life is for you to decide. There are those that hold others to a certain moral standard and some to the extreme attempt to determine who is worthy to be included with them in salvation. I am not one of those people, and if you meet people like that and they place a heavy burden or yoke around your neck, I suggest that you seek the Lord for His yoke is easy.

 

God bless,

William

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9 hours ago, tahaadi said:

Do we have to follow Old Testament laws as Christians ?

 

Yes, either partially for Gentile Christians or as fully as possible for Jewish Christians, as per ACTS.15:24-29 & 21:20-25, ...but this is not for the sake of salvation since the works of following/keeping the OT Law does not save people from hell, ie only faith in Jesus Christ saves.(JOHN.3:14-18, GALATIANS.2:16-17)

 

OTOH, not following OT laws will put the Christians' salvation at grave risk, eg by losing faith in Jesus Christ/God.(HEBREWS.10:26-31, 1COR.5:5 & 11:30 & 6:9-11, 1JOHN.5:16-17, JOB.2:9)

....... Eg if the Gentile Christians continue to commit sexual immorality, they will likely be cursed/struck by God with the horrible AIDS or STD diseases and while in terrible suffering for their sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking, they may lose faith, eg curse Jesus/God and die = lose salvation. ...

 

‘I Was Blind to the Path I Had Taken’: Man Who Aspired to Be Pastor Pleads Guilty to Murdering Wife, Points to Life of ‘Drinking, Drugs’

CHRISTIANNEWS.NET

RALEIGH, N.C. -- A North Carolina man who had claimed that cold medicine had caused him to stab his wife to death while sleeping...

 

God's ideal is Jewish Christians, ie Jews who keep the Law and follow or believe in Jesus Christ. eg the apostles and cf; the rich young ruler of MATTHEW.19:16-21 = likely gain a good, loving, peaceful, joyful and long life on earth, die and will be saved from hell = inherit the kingdom of heaven.

....... In the case of the less ideal Gentile Christians, for most of them, they should follow Jesus Christ and slowly learn to partially keep the Law, ie keep non-burdensome laws = will be saved from hell even though they may not gain a good and long life on earth due to their past sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking as former lawless Gentiles.

 

2TIMOTHY.3:14-15 = 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Edited by discipler77

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3 minutes ago, discipler77 said:

Yes, either partially for Gentile Christians or as fully as possible for Jewish Christians, as per ACTS.15:24-29 & 21:20-25, ...but this is not for the sake of salvation since the works of following/keeping the OT Law does not save people from hell, ie only faith in Jesus Christ saves.(JOHN.3:14-18, GALATIANS.2:16-17)

 

OTOH, not following OT laws will put the Christians' salvation at grave risk, eg by losing faith in Jesus Christ/God.(HEBREWS.10:26-31, 1COR.5:5 & 11:30 & 6:9-11, 1JOHN.5:16-17, JOB.2:9)

....... Eg if the Gentile Christians continue to commit sexual immorality, they will likely be cursed/struck by God with the horrible AIDS or STD diseases and while in terrible suffering for their sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking, they may lose faith, eg curse Jesus/God and die = lose salvation.

 

God's ideal is Jewish Christians, ie Jews who keep the Law and follow or believe in Jesus Christ. eg the apostles and cf; the rich young ruler of MATTHEW.19:16-21 = likely gain a good, loving, peaceful, joyful and long life on earth, die and will be saved from hell = inherit the kingdom of heaven.

....... In the case of the less ideal Gentile Christians, for most of them, they should follow Jesus Christ and slowly learn to partially keep the Law, ie keep non-burdensome laws = will be saved from hell even though they may not gain a good and long life on earth due to their past sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking as former lawless Gentiles.

 

2TIMOTHY.3:14-15 = 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

So Paul got it wrong in this chapter, and it shouldn't be in the Bible???

Gal 3:1-29
(1)  O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(2)  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3)  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
(4)  Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
(5)  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(6)  Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
(7)  Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
(8)  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
(9)  So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
(10)  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
(11)  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(12)  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
(13)  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(14)  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(15)  Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
(16)  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
(17)  And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(18)  For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(19)  Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(20)  Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
(21)  Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(22)  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(23)  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(24)  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25)  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(26)  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
(27)  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(28)  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29)  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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1 hour ago, Placable37 said:

So Paul got it wrong in this chapter, and it shouldn't be in the Bible???

Gal 3:1-29 ...

Yes, ideally that should be the case for Gal 3:1-29, but all men have been created by God with free will and Christians may ignorantly choose to reject or grieve the Spirit of God, willingly commit sins, be self-righteous, self deluded, apostates(eg renounce the faith to escape persecution or tribulations), follow after doctrines of demons/heresies, etc. Aren't there Churches that have gay bishops and pastors, and welcome the LGBTQs as members.?

Edited by discipler77

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10 hours ago, discipler77 said:

Yes, either partially for Gentile Christians or as fully as possible for Jewish Christians, as per ACTS.15:24-29 & 21:20-25, ...but this is not for the sake of salvation since the works of following/keeping the OT Law does not save people from hell, ie only faith in Jesus Christ saves.(JOHN.3:14-18, GALATIANS.2:16-17)

 

OTOH, not following OT laws will put the Christians' salvation at grave risk, eg by losing faith in Jesus Christ/God.(HEBREWS.10:26-31, 1COR.5:5 & 11:30 & 6:9-11, 1JOHN.5:16-17, JOB.2:9)

....... Eg if the Gentile Christians continue to commit sexual immorality, they will likely be cursed/struck by God with the horrible AIDS or STD diseases and while in terrible suffering for their sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking, they may lose faith, eg curse Jesus/God and die = lose salvation. ...

 

‘I Was Blind to the Path I Had Taken’: Man Who Aspired to Be Pastor Pleads Guilty to Murdering Wife, Points to Life of ‘Drinking, Drugs’

CHRISTIANNEWS.NET

RALEIGH, N.C. -- A North Carolina man who had claimed that cold medicine had caused him to stab his wife to death while sleeping...

 

God's ideal is Jewish Christians, ie Jews who keep the Law and follow or believe in Jesus Christ. eg the apostles and cf; the rich young ruler of MATTHEW.19:16-21 = likely gain a good, loving, peaceful, joyful and long life on earth, die and will be saved from hell = inherit the kingdom of heaven.

....... In the case of the less ideal Gentile Christians, for most of them, they should follow Jesus Christ and slowly learn to partially keep the Law, ie keep non-burdensome laws = will be saved from hell even though they may not gain a good and long life on earth due to their past sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking as former lawless Gentiles.

 

2TIMOTHY.3:14-15 = 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Just a couple of points, the Law is not limited to only the OT just as the Gospel is not limited to only the NT.

 

And I have no idea as to why you keep distinguishing between Jews and Gentiles in the True Israel/Church.

 

God bless,

William

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1 hour ago, William said:

And I have no idea as to why you keep distinguishing between Jews and Gentiles in the True Israel/Church.

ROMANS.11: = Israel’s Rejection Not Final

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

 

MATTHEW.10: = Sending Out the Twelve

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.

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7 minutes ago, discipler77 said:

ROMANS.11: = Israel’s Rejection Not Final

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

 

MATTHEW.10: = Sending Out the Twelve

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.

Yes? I have a feeling that those verses don't mean what you think they mean. Perhaps you may elaborate and not assume that others understand what you think those Scriptures are conveying?

 

God bless,

William

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1 hour ago, William said:

Just a couple of points, the Law is not limited to only the OT just as the Gospel is not limited to only the NT.

The gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ is limited to the NT or New Covenant. ...

 

HEBREWS.8: = A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

 

.

In the Bible, "the Law" usually refers to OT Law or Moses Law, eg ...

 

MATTHEW.22: = 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

MATTHEW.7:12 = 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

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3 hours ago, discipler77 said:

The gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ is limited to the NT or New Covenant. ...

 

HEBREWS.8: = A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

 

.

In the Bible, "the Law" usually refers to OT Law or Moses Law, eg ...

 

MATTHEW.22: = 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

MATTHEW.7:12 = 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

The Gospel promises began in the OT. And Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Faithful Israel looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. In Genesis 3 for example, God clothed Adam and Eve by grace, and made to them a promise Genesis 3:15 which revealed in whom the faith of our forefathers rested.

 

What is amusing to me is that you seemingly forget that the church was began and comprised of "faithful Jews". True Israel is not limited to only the modern nation of Israel but expands around the entire globe. In Romans 11 the same tree exists across the divide between Old and New Testaments. That which remains after the dead branches are removed is the True Israel. Gentile believers are now grafted into this already existing old tree (true Israel/the true church). There is only one good olive tree, and the same olive tree exists across the Covenantal divide.

 

Onto the second point, Jesus summed up the Law which is both in the OT and NT. The Law is not limited to the OT and neither is the Gospel limited to the NT.

 

  • Deuteronomy 6:5, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."
  • Leviticus 19:18, "You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD."
  • Matthew 22:37 And He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
  • Matthew 22:39 “The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

 

Therefore, the Gospel was revealed and is evidenced by the forward looking faith of OT saints as much as in the historical faith of the NT saints (we are both pointing to the same Person), and likewise, Law is still given in the NT.

 

True Israel or the faithful remnant were always distinguished by faith from other nations including unbelieving Jews in the nation of Israel. Of the oldest books in the Old Testament the faith of our forefathers can be heard, Job declared "my redeemer lives" Job 19:25. The Law requires perfect obedience, including the love of not only God, but our neighbors, and even our enemies. The Law must be perfectly fulfilled. If we were capable of even loving perfectly then Jesus Christ died needlessly, Jesus had to fulfill the Law without fault or failure. We (faithful Israel) receive by faith what Christ did - which includes loving God, loving our neighbor, and even loving our enemies.

 

God bless,

William

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18 hours ago, William said:

The Gospel promises began in the OT.

No, the OT only gave prophesies about the gospel and pointed to the coming of the promised Messiah/Christ. Unfortunately, most of the Jews rejected Jesus the Christ/Messiah in the NT.

....... Salvation for mankind only began in the NT with the crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ at ACTS.1 & 2, ie circa 33AD. The OT does not save = today's Jews are not saved from hell by keeping the OT Law. Only the NT gospel of faith in Jesus Christ saves.

 

There are advertisements for  products or services. The ad is not the product or service. Similarly, the OT "advertised" the gospel in the NT, but the OT was not the gospel. Most of the Jews did not "buy" the gospel of Jesus Christ, as "advertised" in the OT.

 

 

 

18 hours ago, William said:

The Law requires perfect obedience, including the love of not only God, but our neighbors, and even our enemies.

Not fully true. The Law does not require "love our enemies", especially unrepentant and unbelieving enemies. Christians are to only not-resist their powerful enemies(= government/rulers/the authorities), eg being martyred by their powerful enemies during times of persecution.

....... ROMANS.12:19-21 came to pass in 70AD when God caused the Roman Army to massacre the rebellious Jews and Pharisees who had also been persecuting Christians, eg the martyrdom of Stephen by the Jews at ACTS.7. And when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth for the 2nd time, He will be massacring all the unrepentant enemies of God, eg unbelievers, persecutors, mockers, sinners/evildoers/law-breakers, etc.

 

To love our enemies, instead of only loving our neighbors/friends is like an oxymoron. Only moronic or foolish Christians actually love their enemies.(= love ISIS/Al-Qaeda/terrorists/Satanists.?) Christians have been commanded by Jesus Christ/God to not even fellowship with unrepentant Christian sinners/evildoers/law-breakers, what more fellowshiping or loving their unrepentant and unbelieving enemies.!

 

ROMANS.9:13 = 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

HOSEA.9:15 = 15 “All their wickedness is in Gilgal,
For there I hated them.
Because of the evil of their deeds
I will drive them from My house;
I will love them no more.
All their princes are rebellious.

 

PROVERBS.6:16-19 =

16 These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

 

MATTHEW.18: = Dealing with a Sinning Brother

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Edited by discipler77

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9 hours ago, discipler77 said:

No, the OT only gave prophesies about the gospel and pointed to the coming of the promised Messiah/Christ. Unfortunately, most of the Jews rejected Jesus the Christ/Messiah in the NT.

....... Salvation for mankind only began in the NT with the crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ at ACTS.1 & 2, ie circa 33AD. The OT does not save = today's Jews are not saved from hell by keeping the OT Law. Only the NT gospel of faith in Jesus Christ saves.

 

There are advertisements for  products or services. The ad is not the product or service. Similarly, the OT "advertised" the gospel in the NT, but the OT was not the gospel. Most of the Jews did not "buy" the gospel of Jesus Christ, as "advertised" in the OT.

The Law promises life to those who are righteous in themselves, or on the condition of righteousness, and perfect obedience. Leviticus 18:5; Matthew 19:17. The Gospel, on the other hand, promises life to those who are justified by faith in Christ, or on the condition of the righteousness of Christ, applied to us by faith. The Law and the Gospel are, not opposed to each other: the Law requires us to keep the commandments if we would enter into life, and yet does not exclude us from life if another performs these things for us.

 

"In Scriptures, commands and promises are typically found together. With God’s promises come commands to repent of sin and believe the promise. The commands, typically, are not merely announcements of judgment, but God’s gracious opportunities to repent of sin and believe in him. As the Psalmist says, “be gracious to me through your law,” Psalm 119:29." - John Frame

 

The basic principle to know whether the passage is a statement of the Law or of the Gospel: For when the Word is preached, the Law and the gospel operate differently. The Law exposes the disease of sin, and as a side-effect, stimulates and stirs it up. But it provides no remedy for it. However the Gospel not only teaches us what is to be done, it also has the power of the Holy Spirit joined to it. A statement of the Law indicates the need for a perfect inherent righteousness, of eternal life given through the works of the Law, of the sins which are contrary to the Law and of the curse that is due them. By contrast, a statement of the Gospel speaks of Christ and His benefits, and of faith being fruitful in good works.

 

"God gives his law as part of a covenant, and that covenant is a gift of God’s grace. The decalogue begins, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.” Only after proclaiming his saving grace does God then issue his commands to Israel. So the decalogue as a whole has the function of offering Israel a new way of life, conferred by grace (cf. Deuteronomy 7:7-8, 9:4-6). Is the decalogue “Law” or “Gospel?” Surely it is both. Israel was terrified upon hearing it, to be sure Exodus 20:18-21. But in fact it offers blessing (note verse 6) and promise (verse 12). Moses and the Prophets are sufficient to keep sinners from perishing in Hell Matthew 16:31.

So the definitions that sharply separate law and gospel break down on careful analysis. In both law and gospel, then, God proclaims his saving work, and he demands that his people respond by obeying his commands. The terms “law” and “gospel” differ in emphasis, but they overlap and intersect. They present the whole Word of God from different perspectives. Indeed, we can say that our Bible as a whole is both law (because as a whole it speaks with divine authority and requires belief) and gospel (because as a whole it is good news to fallen creatures). Each concept is meaningless apart from the other. Each implies the other." - John Frame

 

Source:

FLIPPINGTHESWITCHON.BLOGSPOT.COM

By: John Frame It has become increasingly common in Reformed circles, as it has long been in Lutheran circles, to say that the...

 

9 hours ago, discipler77 said:

Not fully true. The Law does not require "love our enemies", especially unrepentant and unbelieving enemies. Christians are to only not-resist their powerful enemies(= government/rulers/the authorities), eg being martyred by their powerful enemies during times of persecution.

 

Your answer would make the Lawyer in Luke 10:30-37 very proud!

 

God loved us when we were unrepentant and unbelieving enemies:

  • Matthew 5:44-45 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
  • Luke 6:35–36 Love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful
  • Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
  • 1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us.
9 hours ago, discipler77 said:

To love our enemies, instead of only loving our neighbors/friends is like an oxymoron. Only moronic or foolish Christians actually love their enemies.(= love ISIS/Al-Qaeda/terrorists/Satanists.?) Christians have been commanded by Jesus Christ/God to not even fellowship with unrepentant Christian sinners/evildoers/law-breakers, what more fellowshiping or loving their unrepentant and unbelieving enemies.!

The command to love our enemies is not an oxymoron. Jesus' commands do not contradict texts regarding punishment for criminals and self-defense Exodus 22:1-4. Jesus exhorts us to be as “wise as serpents” when we deal with others Matthew 10:16. Seeking retribution against those who oppress the weak and defenseless does not contradict and is not unloving. Sometimes, the only way we can love our enemies is to put them in a place (such as prison) where they will be hindered from doing more damage and incurring greater consequences for their sins.

 

Christ’s call for us to love our enemies is not naive. We are not to read one portion of Scripture in isolation from another, therefore I suggest the Pharisaic understanding of the Law be corrected. The highest moral and ethical values are absolute. We ought to reject relative standards based on what individuals or groups feel right. The Law is objective, binding on all, regardless of private opinions or emotions.

 

Loving our enemies does not mean we approve of wickedness. It means we pray for our enemies and long for their conversion and not their eternal condemnation.

 

God bless,

William

 

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16 hours ago, William said:

The Law promises life to those who are righteous in themselves, or on the condition of righteousness, and perfect obedience. Leviticus 18:5; Matthew 19:17. The Gospel, on the other hand, promises life to those who are justified by faith in Christ, or on the condition of the righteousness of Christ, applied to us by faith.

From my 27 Sep post above ...

Quote

Before Christ(= before 33AD), only Jews who had kept Moses Law were saved from hell when they died, eg beggar Lazarus, Moses and Elijah; while Jews who broke Moses Law unrepentantly were not saved from hell, eg the rich Jew, Jannes and Jambres - LUKE.16:19-31(cf; DEUT.15:11), MATTHEW.17:3 & 27:52, 1PETER.3:19 & 4:6, ie the law-abiding Jews were given the opportunity to hear Jesus Christ after they died.

....... After the Advent of Jesus Christ to earth(= after the death and resurrection of JC in 33AD), law-abiding Jews were no longer given this opportunity, ie they were required to hear the gospel of Christ and believe in Him, in order to be saved from hell. Later, this same requirement of faith in Christ applied to the mostly lawless and problematic Gentiles.

 

Till today, the Jews still "falsely" believe that they will be saved from hell by just keeping Moses Law or as many of the 613 laws as possible.

 

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11 minutes ago, discipler77 said:

From my 27 Sep post above ...

 

You should convert to Judasim instead of masquerading around as a Chtistian. There, this post took a whole ten seconds, an equal amount of time with respect to the time you took to address my response. 

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16 hours ago, William said:

God loved us when we were unrepentant and unbelieving enemies:

No, God loved us when we were repentant and unbelieving enemies. Only those enemies of His who repent and believe in His Son would be loved by God, ie not those enemies who remain unrepentant. Unrepentant enemies will also not believe that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah/Saviour.

 

I have already quoted Scriptures to you that God does not love His unrepentant and unbelieving enemies, eg Satan and his followers, ie God hates them - ROMANS.9:13, HOSEA.9:15, PROVERBS.6:16-19. God will be sending such enemies of His to hell or the lake of fire and brimstone. But according to your "doctrine", all the enemies of God will also be saved from hell, which is unScriptural.

....... OTOH, God loves the repentant enemies/sinners/unbelievers who later come into faith in Jesus Christ, eg the apostle Paul at ACTS.9.

.

 

JOHN.3:16 = 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

MATTHEW.4:17 = 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

 

ACTS.2: = 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

 

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

 

LUKE.23: = 39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

 

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

 

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

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