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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.

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E Morales

Mary the mother of God

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E Morales

Baptists do not believe that Mary is God or related to God. She needed a saviour just like everybody else. There is only one mediator between God and man, that is the man Christ Jesus.1 Timothy 2:5. Mary is not mentioned in the New Testament Bible after the book of Acts. She had no part in the founding or building of Churches. There are no verses in the Epistles lifting her as a heavenly authority at all. The Book of Romans which was Paul’s doctrinal treatise for Churches says not one word about Mary or Mariolatry. Have we left out that she was the chosen by God, when was the last time you preach on a message Mary the mother of God?

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Knotical

One of the biggest apostasies the Catholic Church makes is when they try to explain that Mary was without sin simply because she was chosen by God to give birth to His Son.  Quite the logical fallacy there.

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William
Staff

Both Martin Luther and John Calvin used the title Mary "Mother Of God" [Theotókos]. Catholic upbringing carryover? Or is it not possible to reject the title Mother of God and not separate Jesus' humanity from His Divinty? According to early church fathers and Reformers does the title Mother of God imply Mary is God? In other words how did they understand and use the title in historical context?

 

@E Morales @2404 curious as to whether Baptist reject the Athanasian and Chalcedonian Creed?

 

 

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E Morales
1 hour ago, William said:

Both Martin Luther and John Calvin used the title Mary "Mother Of God" [Theotókos]. Catholic upbringing carryover? Or is it not possible to reject the title Mother of God and not separate Jesus' humanity from His Divinty? According to early church fathers and Reformers does the title Mother of God imply Mary is God? In other words how did they understand and use the title in historical context?

 

@E Morales @2404 curious as to whether Baptist reject the Athanasian and Chalcedonian Creed?

 

 

The independent Baptist’s believe 

The Scriptures

We believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of both the Old and New Testament. The Bible, the Word of God, is the full and complete revelation of God’s will for man. It is the supreme and final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

*Scripture: 2 Timothy 3:16, 17; 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Hebrews 1:1-2; Jude 3; Proverbs 30:5-6

God

We believe that there is only one true and living God, eternally existing in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each with a distinct personality but all of one essence having the same attributes and perfections of God.

*Scripture: Deuteronomy 6:4; Matthew 28:19, 20; 2 Corinthians 13:14; John 4:24

Jesus Christ

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God and God the Son, became man without ceasing to be God, having been conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

*Scripture: John 1:1, 2, 14; Matthew 1:20, 23; Philippians 2:6, 7

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished our complete redemption through His death on the cross. He lived a sinless life, died a vicarious death, and arose from the dead in a literal, physical body.

*Scripture: Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 4:15; Romans 3:24, 25;1 Corinthians 15:3,4

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God the Father. As our High Priest, He fulfills the ministry of Intercessor and Advocate.

*Scripture: Hebrews 1:3; 4:14; 1 John 2:1, 2; 1 Timothy 2:5

Holy Spirit

We believe that the Holy Spirit is God. He possesses all the attributes of deity. He is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father and the Son and of the same nature.

*Scripture: John 4:24; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Corinthians 13:14

We believe that the Holy Spirit is the chief agent in the regeneration of the soul. The Holy Spirit convicts the unregenerate person of his sin. At the moment an unregenerate person exercises faith in Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit immediately indwells, justifies, sanctifies, and seals the believer unto the day of redemption.

*Scripture: John 3:5, 16:7-11; Romans 8:9; 5:1; 15:16; Ephesians 4:30

We believe that the Holy Spirit is the Divine Teacher who guides believers in the truth of the Word of God. It is the privilege and duty of all saved people to be filled (controlled) with the Spirit.

*Scripture: 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 16:3; Ephesians 5:18

We believe that the Holy Spirit bestows at least one spiritual gift upon each believer according to His Will. The Holy Spirit no longer distributes the temporary sign gifts (e.g. miracles, healing, tongues, and interpretation of tongues) to believers because:

The age of sign-gifts ended with the Apostles.

*Scripture: 2 Corinthians 12:12; Ephesians 2:20

They were rendered useless when the New Testament was complete.

*Scripture: 2 Timothy 3:16-17; Hebrews 1:1-2; Revelation 22:18

Their purpose was to confirm the Word of God.

*Scripture: Mark 16:20; Hebrews 2:4

We believe the gift of tongues, or languages, was a sign of impending judgment on the Jewish nation. This gift ceased with the completion of the canon and the ending of the apostolic age. Therefore, the modern charismatic movement is not based upon God or His Word.

*Scripture: 1 Corinthians 12:7; Acts 2:8-11; Isaiah 28:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:21-22

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Erik
1 hour ago, William said:

Or is it not possible to reject the title Mother of God and not separate Jesus' humanity from His Divinty?

How could Mary be the mother of God if God was before Mary? Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus. That’s all she was noted as being in the Scriptures.  Jesus was before his earthly birth so Mary had nothing to do with His Existence 

Edited by Erik

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Faber
5 hours ago, E Morales said:

Mariolatry

 

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/7524-praying-to-mary-is-an-attack-on-the-trinity/

 

 

Galatians 4:4

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law. (NASB)

     1. Philip Schaff: Every reader knew, of course, who the woman was. The absence of any further allusion to Mary in the Epistles of Paul, who never even mentions her name, goes to show that the excessive veneration of the holy Virgin, as it obtains in the Greek and Roman churches, arose after the Apostolic age. We meet it first in the apocryphal Gospels and then among the fathers of the fourth or fifth centuries, when the term ‘mother of God’ came into general use.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/scn/galatians-4.html

 

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E Morales

Mary was chosen by God, just like all others in the Bible. She was a very special person, and will be present, with all the great men and women that were obedient to Him. We cannot at like she was not blessed, for God bless her for His purpose. So be not ashamed to preach on Mary, the earthly mother of god. For she was chosen, just like John the Baptist was chosen. 

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William
Staff
7 hours ago, E Morales said:

The independent Baptist’s believe 

The Scriptures

We believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of both the Old and New Testament. The Bible, the Word of God, is the full and complete revelation of God’s will for man. It is the supreme and final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

*Scripture: 2 Timothy 3:16, 17; 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Hebrews 1:1-2; Jude 3; Proverbs 30:5-6

God

We believe that there is only one true and living God, eternally existing in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each with a distinct personality but all of one essence having the same attributes and perfections of God.

*Scripture: Deuteronomy 6:4; Matthew 28:19, 20; 2 Corinthians 13:14; John 4:24

Jesus Christ

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God and God the Son, became man without ceasing to be God, having been conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

*Scripture: John 1:1, 2, 14; Matthew 1:20, 23; Philippians 2:6, 7

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished our complete redemption through His death on the cross. He lived a sinless life, died a vicarious death, and arose from the dead in a literal, physical body.

*Scripture: Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 4:15; Romans 3:24, 25;1 Corinthians 15:3,4

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God the Father. As our High Priest, He fulfills the ministry of Intercessor and Advocate.

*Scripture: Hebrews 1:3; 4:14; 1 John 2:1, 2; 1 Timothy 2:5

Holy Spirit

We believe that the Holy Spirit is God. He possesses all the attributes of deity. He is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father and the Son and of the same nature.

*Scripture: John 4:24; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Corinthians 13:14

We believe that the Holy Spirit is the chief agent in the regeneration of the soul. The Holy Spirit convicts the unregenerate person of his sin. At the moment an unregenerate person exercises faith in Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit immediately indwells, justifies, sanctifies, and seals the believer unto the day of redemption.

*Scripture: John 3:5, 16:7-11; Romans 8:9; 5:1; 15:16; Ephesians 4:30

We believe that the Holy Spirit is the Divine Teacher who guides believers in the truth of the Word of God. It is the privilege and duty of all saved people to be filled (controlled) with the Spirit.

*Scripture: 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 16:3; Ephesians 5:18

We believe that the Holy Spirit bestows at least one spiritual gift upon each believer according to His Will. The Holy Spirit no longer distributes the temporary sign gifts (e.g. miracles, healing, tongues, and interpretation of tongues) to believers because:

The age of sign-gifts ended with the Apostles.

*Scripture: 2 Corinthians 12:12; Ephesians 2:20

They were rendered useless when the New Testament was complete.

*Scripture: 2 Timothy 3:16-17; Hebrews 1:1-2; Revelation 22:18

Their purpose was to confirm the Word of God.

*Scripture: Mark 16:20; Hebrews 2:4

We believe the gift of tongues, or languages, was a sign of impending judgment on the Jewish nation. This gift ceased with the completion of the canon and the ending of the apostolic age. Therefore, the modern charismatic movement is not based upon God or His Word.

*Scripture: 1 Corinthians 12:7; Acts 2:8-11; Isaiah 28:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:21-22

You didn't answer my questions. 

 

6 hours ago, Erik said:

How could Mary be the mother of God if God was before Mary? Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus. That’s all she was noted as being in the Scriptures.  Jesus was before his earthly birth so Mary had nothing to do with His Existence 

Have you any idea who and/or what you're talking about? You haven't answered my questions. 

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E Morales
7 hours ago, William said:

You didn't answer my questions. 

 

Have you any idea who and/or what you're talking about? You haven't answered my questions. 

No we do not reject, we do believe that Mary was the mother of Jesus on earth only. Just like you and I have a earthly mother here. That Mary, did not had any power, like to convert the water into wine. Do you believe that Mary, was the mother of God, here on earth only, The virgin birth, that she was chosen by God? 

Edited by E Morales

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William
Staff
54 minutes ago, E Morales said:

Do you believe that Mary, was the mother of God, here on earth only, The virgin birth, that she was chosen by God? 

Yes.

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E Morales
12 minutes ago, William said:

Yes.

Nice

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Antus67

Here is a excerpt on the Catholics position of Mary.

==============================================================================================================================

 

§ 490-93) teaches:

To become the mother of the Savior, Mary “was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.” The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace.” In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.

Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

“The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son.” The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love.”

The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia) and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature.” By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

The teaching summarized: (1) Mary was sinless from conception on (2) through the forthcoming merits of Christ so that (3) she could “give free assent” to her calling and (4) provide Christ with a sinless human nature.

 

Being that as it may, for many the root issue is the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception, the teaching that the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without sin through the retroactive merits of Christ. The Church found the doctrine necessary, I think, for two fundamental reasons. First, Christ needs sinless human flesh, for he cannot be a sinner, and second, he must take his flesh from his mother really and truly if he is to be fully human. Indeed, the Eve-Mary typology iconographed in the image assumes Mary’s sinlessness, for she has to be in the prelapsarian (i.e., pre-fall) position of Eve to be able to undo what Eve did. She obeys freely, where Eve disobeyed, in parallel to Christ’s obedience undoing Adam’s disobedience (see Romans 5:12–19 and 1 Corinthians 15:21–22, 45–49).

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William
Staff
1 minute ago, Antus67 said:

First, Christ needs sinless human flesh, for he cannot be a sinner, and second, he must take his flesh from his mother really and truly if he is to be fully human.

Gnostic leaning. 

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Antus67

The truth shall set you free William

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Becky
Moderator

If Mary was sinless she nod no need of His Grace 

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Faber

Hello Becky,

 

 RC's will respond by saying she was sinless and in need of God's grace. In her case it is referred to as prevenient grace. That is, the merits of Christ atoning sacrifice were applied to her at the very moment of her conception. Thus she too was in need of a Savior (Luke 1:47), but this action by God took place in a different way.

 

 The above is what RC's teach, but I don't buy it.

 

 From post #12: "The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia)..."

 Only God is "the All-Holy." This connects to the worship rendered unto Him (Revelation 15:4). The fact that RC's worship Mary (praying to her is worshiping her - see the first link in post #6) impugns on the absolute holiness of the Triune God.

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Faber
On 11/3/2019 at 11:03 PM, Becky said:

If Mary was sinless

 

 1. Then why did the Lord Jesus teach that among those born of women there is none greater than John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)? If Mary was conceived without sin then she would have been greater than John. Indeed, it was Mary who gave birth to Jesus who John could now proclaim and yet the Lord Jesus taught that John is greater. Furthermore, John (not Mary) is said to have been filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb (Luke 1:15).

 

 2. John the Baptist baptized in view of repentance (Matthew 3:11; Acts 19:4) and people confessed their sins (Matthew 3:6) because his baptism was for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3). If Mary was sinless then that would mean she would not have undergone John's baptism because she would have no need to repent of any sins nor any need to confess to any sins. This despite the fact that John's baptism was proclaimed to all the people of Israel (Acts 13:24). Even the Lord Jesus underwent this baptism but not for the remission of any sins. In fact, if Mary had not partook of this baptism then she would have fallen under the same condemnation spoken about the Pharisees and the lawyers in Luke 7:30.

 

 3. Mary did undergo John's baptism and all that it entailed. In fact, she too was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:14; cf. 1:5; 2:4) along with the others presented in the beginning of the Book of Acts. This baptism is what John specifically spoke of during his ministry (Luke 3:16; cf. Acts 1:5; 11:16).

 

 

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E Morales

Mary just like you and I, carry the sin of Adam. Mary’s  dad, had sex with Mary mother to be born. Just like yours, and My parents did. There was no sperm donor, Jesus was placed inside Mary, no sex’s, for the Spirit hadn’t this need. 

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Becky
Moderator
3 hours ago, E Morales said:

Mary just like you and I, carry the sin of Adam. Mary’s  dad, had sex with Mary mother to be born. Just like yours, and My parents did. There was no sperm donor, Jesus was placed inside Mary, no sex’s, for the Spirit hadn’t this need. 

Sex within a marriage is not sin.

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E Morales
14 minutes ago, Becky said:

Sex within a marriage is not sin.

That is correct, if they are male and female Only.

Edited by E Morales

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Faber
10 hours ago, Becky said:

Sex within a marriage is not sin.

 

 Good point. I think this leads to still another false teaching held by the RC's that Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life despite being married to Joseph (1 Corinthians 7:2-5).

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