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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
bcbsr

Murder

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bcbsr

 

Murder

 

People in society often view murder as the ultimate sin. They may say, "I may have done some bad things in life, but at least I'm not a murderer." But in fact murder may be a much more socially acceptable practice than people generally make it out to be, though they simply call it something different.

 

For example to date American women have murdered over 50 million of their own babies through abortion. From the early days of Christiantiy abortion was explicitly condemned as murder. A second century Christian wrote, "And when we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder?"And the Didache says, "thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born."

 

Furthermore, in the Islamic Middle East murder is practically mandated as a religious duty. And what about those who condone their actions? Are they not also culpable? What of those who support a woman's right to choose to murder her baby? And what of Muslims who condone the murder of others in the name of Islam? Seems the world is filled with murderers.

Jesus said to those who were out to kill him, "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning"  John 8:44a And if not the overt form of murder, even an illegitimate hatred for others is reckoned murder. "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him." 1John 3:15 Regardless of how one is involved in the murder of others, murderers do not have eternal life.

 

Now if one is prone to murder and hatred of others, they must learn to respect others as God's creation, even when such respect for human life may be an inconvenience to themselves.

 

The Sin Series

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Matthew A.Duvall
On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 1:44 PM, bcbsr said:

 

Murder

 

People in society often view murder as the ultimate sin. They may say, "I may have done some bad things in life, but at least I'm not a murderer." But in fact murder may be a much more socially acceptable practice than people generally make it out to be, though they simply call it something different.

 

For example to date American women have murdered over 50 million of their own babies through abortion. From the early days of Christiantiy abortion was explicitly condemned as murder. A second century Christian wrote, "And when we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder?"And the Didache says, "thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born."

 

Furthermore, in the Islamic Middle East murder is practically mandated as a religious duty. And what about those who condone their actions? Are they not also culpable? What of those who support a woman's right to choose to murder her baby? And what of Muslims who condone the murder of others in the name of Islam? Seems the world is filled with murderers.

Jesus said to those who were out to kill him, "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning"  John 8:44a And if not the overt form of murder, even an illegitimate hatred for others is reckoned murder. "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him." 1John 3:15 Regardless of how one is involved in the murder of others, murderers do not have eternal life.

 

Now if one is prone to murder and hatred of others, they must learn to respect others as God's creation, even when such respect for human life may be an inconvenience to themselves.

 

The Sin Series

While murder is obviously a sin, it is not classified as the worst of sins one can commit. The worst sin anyone can commit is the denial and rejection of our Lord Jesus Christ . That stands as the one that has eternal consequences . Not to say that subsequent sins are given a free pass. Because they are not . The unbelieving are held accountable  for every sin they have ever committed .       MD

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William
Staff
4 hours ago, Matthew A.Duvall said:

While murder is obviously a sin, it is not classified as the worst of sins one can commit. The worst sin anyone can commit is the denial and rejection of our Lord Jesus Christ . That stands as the one that has eternal consequences . Not to say that subsequent sins are given a free pass. Because they are not . The unbelieving are held accountable  for every sin they have ever committed .       MD

Is the unbelief you once held before your regeneration and conversion forgiven? 

 

Even unbelief is forgivable. God's grace at times of recognition is just so overwhelming. 

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E Morales

If a woman had a abortion before she became a Christian, born again, Saved, she will be forgiven. Are job is not to stand and protest in-front of a clinic. But to pray that they might repent, and come to Christ for salvation. Yelling babies killers, will not save them. Try standing by with a sign saying there is still hope and faith. Ask Me? 😇

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William
Staff
18 minutes ago, E Morales said:

If a woman had a abortion before she became a Christian, born again, Saved, she will be forgiven. Are job is not to stand and protest in-front of a clinic. But to pray that they might repent, and come to Christ for salvation. Yelling babies killers, will not save them. Try standing by with a sign saying there is still hope and faith. Ask Me? 😇

Do we have a duty to protect the life of the innocent [earthly crime]? 


If so, standing out in front of a murder factory with a sign is the very least that can be done. 

 

Earthly sin and/or crime [murder] has earthly consequences. Murder should be condemned. 

 

Salvation aside people are getting away with murder. 

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E Morales

When John the Baptist was murder, Jesus remained calmed. He could have stopped the killing, if He wanted to. They can take the life away, but they cannot take the Spirit or Soul. I don’t support abortion, it is not of God, but the devil, satan.

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William
Staff
8 minutes ago, E Morales said:

When John the Baptist was murder, Jesus remained calmed. He could have stopped the killing, if He wanted to. They can take the life away, but they cannot take the Spirit or Soul. I don’t support abortion, it is not of God, but the devil, satan.

The duty of the civil magistrate is to actively seek out evil and combat it. While the civil magistrate may demonstrate mercy it is not their place to demonstrate grace [forgiveness]. Personally, I don't want my government acting as priest and mediator between man and God. I expect the civil magistrate to be a stumbling block to the unrighteous and simultaneously transparent to the righteous [law abiding]. I expect the civil magistrate to punish the criminals for their crimes. Earthly crimes as a result of sin have earthly consequences. 

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Becky
Moderator
1 hour ago, E Morales said:

If a woman had a abortion before she became a Christian, born again, Saved, she will be forgiven. Are job is not to stand and protest in-front of a clinic. But to pray that they might repent, and come to Christ for salvation. Yelling babies killers, will not save them. Try standing by with a sign saying there is still hope and faith. Ask Me? 😇

 

48 minutes ago, E Morales said:

When John the Baptist was murder, Jesus remained calmed. He could have stopped the killing, if He wanted to. They can take the life away, but they cannot take the Spirit or Soul. I don’t support abortion, it is not of God, but the devil, satan.

Walking down the street if you saw a person getting ready to stomp a child to death .. Would you walk by telling yourself Jesus would have remained calm and Jesus chose not to stop this? 

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Becky
Moderator

If a Christian woman had an abortion and repented she would also be forgiven. Or is murder the unforgivable sin? The people, world wide. who shut their eyes to what was going on in Hitlers Germany are as guilty as he is.  

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Faber
36 minutes ago, Becky said:

 

Walking down the street if you saw a person getting ready to stomp a child to death .. Would you walk by telling yourself Jesus would have remained calm and Jesus chose not to stop this? 

 

 If a person prevents this attacker from doing so by killing him/her wouldn't that be justifiable homicide?

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Becky
Moderator

yup

 

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Faber

 If a person prevents those who murder the unborn by doing the same thing shouldn't that be justifiable homicide as well?

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Becky
Moderator

Out of sight out of mind attitude about abortion is most disgusting . I dont think screaming baby killer is the best idea .. Letting women know they are strong enough to have the child , The world has lied to folks a blob of cells etc.   It is a child that is being sacrificed to the god of self,  Let them know there is help . To be silent in the face of 60 million + murders is a huge blight on the church.  

 

Mat_19:14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. 

 

Pro 6:16  These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 
Pro 6:17  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 
Pro 6:18  An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 
Pro 6:19  A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. 
 

2 minutes ago, Faber said:

 If a person prevents those who murder the unborn by doing the same thing shouldn't that be justifiable homicide as well?

It is to me but in this Godless place the one who saved the child would be condemned .

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E Morales

If I seen a man hurtling a child ? I will call the police, if he comes to attack me. I’ll have to take him down. 

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Antus67

{3}notable passage about murder in the Bible

 

Exodus 21:12-14
(12) An yone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.
(13) However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate.
(14) But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.

 

Exodus 21:23-25
(23) But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,
(24) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
(25) burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

 

Leviticus 24:17 and 21
(17) If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death.
(21) Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a man must be put to death

Edited by Antus67

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Matthew A.Duvall
15 hours ago, William said:

Is the unbelief you once held before your regeneration and conversion forgiven? 

 

Even unbelief is forgivable. God's grace at times of recognition is just so overwhelming. 

Of course it was . As R.C. Sproul once said; " I never understood my own salvation until I was hammered with the book of Romans." All sins, past present and future were forgiven and forgotten when I received Christ. I don't think that all new believers completely understand that at first. But time and experience in the Christian faith convinces us that when Jesus died His death was satisfactory to meet the Divine Justice . Now our only struggle is with persistent sins that hinder our relationship with God. But God has granted to us the ability to confess and reconcile our faults and experience restoration to fellowship and related graces  .      M

Edited by Matthew A.Duvall
s

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Becky
Moderator
55 minutes ago, E Morales said:

If I seen a man hurtling a child ? I will call the police, if he comes to attack me. I’ll have to take him down. 

How  much time does it take for a man to stomp a child and how much time for the cops to get there?   You will protect yourself but not a child. ? 

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E Morales

I can take the law in my own hands and take him out with a bullet, Would this seem right to you?

2 hours ago, Becky said:

How  much time does it take for a man to stomp a child and how much time for the cops to get there?   You will protect yourself but not a child. ? 

 

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Origen
Moderator
40 minutes ago, E Morales said:

I can take the law in my own hands and take him out with a bullet, Would this seem right to you?

The right to use deadly force in self defense or in the defense of another when one reasonably believes himself\herself or another person to be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm is a well established precedent of law.  It is not a case of taking the law into your own hands.

 

Beside who says you have to kill anyone?  You could try and detain\restrain the person by force or you could wound the person.

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E Morales
8 hours ago, Origen said:

The right to use deadly force in self defense or in the defense of another when one reasonably believes himself\herself or another person to be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm is a well established precedent of law.  It is not a case of taking the law into your own hands.

 

Beside who says you have to kill anyone?  You could try and detain\restrain the person by force or you could wound the person.

Not just abortion are killing children’s, but those selling drugs to them. Over doses, the opioids crisis, kids selling their souls on the internet. It’s all round us evil and evil doers.

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Faber
48 minutes ago, E Morales said:

It’s all round us evil and evil doers.

 The dark places of the earth are full of the habitations of cruelty (Psalm 74:20, KJV), but the Lord will thunder upon them (1 Samuel 2:10, KJV) and lay low the haughtiness of the terrible (Isaiah 13:11, KJV).

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Origen
Moderator
1 hour ago, E Morales said:

Not just abortion are killing children’s, but those selling drugs to them. Over doses, the opioids crisis, kids selling their souls on the internet. It’s all round us evil and evil doers.

Yeah, so?  @Becky question was "How  much time does it take for a man to stomp a child and how much time for the cops to get there?   You will protect yourself but not a child?"  Your comments do not address the context of her question or my response (i.e. to be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm).

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Becky
Moderator

The Book of James is as much part of Scripture as John 3 16. 

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William
Staff
17 hours ago, Origen said:

The right to use deadly force in self defense or in the defense of another when one reasonably believes himself\herself or another person to be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm is a well established precedent of law.  It is not a case of taking the law into your own hands.

 

Beside who says you have to kill anyone?  You could try and detain\restrain the person by force or you could wound the person.

I wholeheartedly agree. 

 

I'm reminded of two principles found in Just War Theory. The two principles which come to mind are to do with Last Resort and Proportionality. 

 

In summation, force may be only authorized as as a last resort when peaceful means are exhausted and then the force exhibited must be proportional to the attack. 

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GaoLu

I've seen that argument so many times but haven't yet seen any teachings of Jesus to back it up.

 

Things I ponder....

 

 - Turning over tables in the temple isn't quite the same thing as terminating the life of someone threatening you. 

 - "Providing for your own" is a long stretch from aiming a gun and blowing  someone's brains out.

 - If a bad man stomping a child warrants violent restraint or more, then why not hold the same standard at abortion centers?

 

Tension between ideas on follow Jesus teachings and how far to go with violence is valid. 

 

In our conclusions, I hope we...

 

1. Authentically honor God, His Word and guidance of the Holy Spirit in real, specific difficult cases

2. Prepare for peace rather than violence.

 

 

 

 

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